But his ruling..

Post #190,177

1/14/05 10:38:30 AM

But his ruling..

...basically states taht any statement critical of that scientific theory is an official endorsement of religion...EVEN WHEN RELIGION ISN'T MENTIONED.

Am I the only one that sees the ice on that hillside?

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #190,178

by pwhysall

1/14/05 10:40:31 AM

No.

I think you're reaching too far. What the problem is, is that a specific theory (scientific sense) that is contradictory to the fundamentalists' belief system is being singled out for attention.

It's noticeable that these people (the fundamentalists) do not have a problem with science when they drive their cars, get into an aircraft, post crazy websites on the internet, take large amounts of cocaine or build air-conditioned kennels for their pet dogs.

But evolution? OH NOES!

Post #190,212

by drewk

1/14/05 3:12:28 PM

ACLU made this point better

Heard their lawyer on NPR last night. She said in the end all scientific theories are just that: theories. To single out this one theory as being more questionable than all the others demonstrates that the sticker was not an exhortation to continually question conventional wisdom. No matter how neutral the text of the sticker may have been, its application to a single scientific theory was sufficient to demonstrate the implicit support of the alternative theory put forth by the members of the school board who had the stickers made.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #190,222

by bepatient

1/14/05 3:57:52 PM

Thats a little better...

...but without reading the entire judgement...this is a pretty fine line they are playing with. That is my only worry.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #190,224

by JayMehaffey

1/14/05 4:08:12 PM

It is a fine line

It is a fine line, but it isn't the judge that brought it up. It was brought into the case when the sticker people set out to find a way to violate the spirit of the constitution without violating the words of the constitution.

Jay

Post #190,228

by bepatient

1/14/05 4:35:54 PM

But I am less likely to...

...be upset about a school board that will eventually die off and and a legal ruling that will stick around for-evah.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #190,246

by drewk

1/14/05 7:52:01 PM

Other outcome would also have set precedent

When then school board tried, as Jay so succinctly put it, to violate the spirit of the constitution while not violating the letter, they forced the issue. They're trying to force the issue. As long as all the teachers "just know" what they're supposed to say, but there's no stickers in the textbooks, the majority might be getting what they want. But this majority[1] wants their position validated by the court. It's their stated agenda. Look for any sites advocating ID theory and you'll see it laid out plainly.

If they're going to force the issue to the courts, I hope the courts continue to do the right thing, as they did in this case.

[1] Majority of those who care about it enough to make a huge issue of it, anyway.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #190,280

by pwhysall

1/15/05 3:40:37 AM

Next time someone says "evolution's just a theory"...

...remind them that the laws of thermodynamics that make their cars go are also "just a theory". Gravity is "just a theory". The carbon cycle is "just a theory".

My, how I detest the phrase "just a theory".

Post #190,289

by imric

1/15/05 7:49:28 AM

*GRIN*

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #190,180

by imric

1/14/05 11:26:17 AM

Judge didn't say that.

He said:

"While evolution is subject to criticism, particularly with respect to the mechanism by which it occurred, the sticker misleads students regarding the significance and value of evolution in the scientific community."

An absolutely true statement.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #190,192

by bepatient

1/14/05 1:18:19 PM

Assumes too much

Based on what the sticker says, I think he's reaching.

And while I agree with his reach and the outcome...the way it was done is problematic for me...because it will be used to over-reach in the opposite direction.

There are times when I beleive the "separation of church and state" clause is not used as intended, but rather used by a small minority to actively discriminate against ALL religion.

And since its based (very loosely) on constitutional doctrine, it escapes scrutiny of its real intent which is discrimination. No better than exluding color...and you can see the extreme of the view from dozens of recent posts...the pendulum has swung too far...and this I see as a way to keep it swinging.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #190,195

by imric

1/14/05 1:35:28 PM

I must disagree.

To imply that anyone other than those with a religious motive is questioning whether 'the origin of living things' involves evolution is FALSE.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #190,198

by bepatient

1/14/05 1:46:26 PM

But the opposite

is to completely disqualify any alternative and/or any marriage of that scientific structure into any other set of beliefs.

It is not allowing gray...which, in the end, is what area this falls in, like it or not.

And MY issue is not this sticker being removed...it was a stupid idea. Its the fact that this ruling was such a stretch based on the crafting of the sticker's language...that this ruling will extend well beyond science textbooks.

It was done with the right intention, exacted the correct reponse...but in a way I fear will be abused.

Thats all.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #190,204

by imric

1/14/05 2:11:11 PM

Ummm.

This was a book on evolution. The sticker wasn't adding anything to it, it wasn't fitting evolution into any other framework, nothing like that. It was only there to question the validity of evolution. Not the details, not where evolution fits in the scheme of things.

I don't see anything bad here.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Welcome to IWETHEY!