Post #190,185
1/14/05 12:49:23 PM
1/14/05 12:51:08 PM
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Remember your Civics/Social Studies classes.
Remember what a Republican Democracy is.
Remember about protections that exist between church and state in OUR Republican Democracy.
Then look up democracy and mob rule, and how Democracy differs from Republican Democracy...
Next -
It is NOT disingenious - you would exclude the ability for a 'class' of people to have a voice in government. Why? Because people have been elected and appointed to office that believe things that you don't, and your characterization of those beliefs frightens you.
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189577|The Fundies are dangerous and should be banned from serving.]
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189678|what frightens me most about the rise of the religious right is that they have a say in our body politic]
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189588|anyone who thinks they are on a mission from God should be banned.]
I don't recall your calling for people to be excluded from government based on religion BEFORE this election. Feel free to link to a post that contradicts me if I'm wrong.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Edited by imric
Jan. 14, 2005, 12:51:08 PM EST
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Post #190,188
1/14/05 12:55:13 PM
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ps. Should you feel the need to respond to this (new thread)
Created as new thread #190187 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=190187|ps. Should you feel the need to respond to this]
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #190,389
1/16/05 2:45:23 PM
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I'd also ban Nazis. That makes me Evul as well I guess.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #190,393
1/16/05 3:07:57 PM
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Yup.
I assume you wouldn't ban Commies, though they are as distasteful as the Nazi reference you are trying to make.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #190,465
1/17/05 9:09:20 AM
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Right.
They got all that equality crap in their dogma.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #190,666
1/18/05 7:07:11 PM
1/19/05 8:54:40 AM
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You know what has always slayed me?
Back in college at a pub known as Mcguire's in Hickory, NC, I was debating 'communism' with a couple of college buds. One, a confirmed member of the Reagan Youth Capitalist Class, the other between me and him. At one point, the Reagan Youth started rambling on and on, not allowing me to make a comment. At this point, we'd had more than several pints and, (in a gesture I thought humorous) I took off my shoe, banged it on the bar and said, "Goddamnit! Jesus Christ was the only Communist who ever lived." I said it loud, I guess, certainly not loud enough to carry over the den in the pub. But, everything went quiet - I mean, absolutely quiet when I said that and everyone was staring at us as we backed ever so carefully out of that establishment.
I have always been amazed at the attitude toward Communism that Christians of all stripes - but especially the fundies - have. The teachings of Christ merge so well with Communist Doctrine ("Take what you have and give it to the poor", etc.) and the teachings of Capitalism ("Greed is Good. Greed is not enough.", etc.) are such an anathema to Christian rhetoric that I've never understood why Christians *hate* Communism so much.
Could it be (as I suspect) that for Christians, the teachings of Christ are good for Sundays but not the way they really want to live? I'm reminded of a good friend of my father's (call him Sam). A "devout" Catholic who swore enough to make the roughest sailor blush. A second friend of my father's (call him Joe) used to play golf with Sam and my dad. After several months of listening to Sam swear with every sentence, Sam mentioned in the presence of Joe that "he had to go to mass at 7:30, so he couldn't play until 9". Joe, incredulous that Sam attended church asked, "Sam, you go to church?" Sam replied, "Every damned Sunday. The goddamned thing only lasts 45 minutes."
Interestingly, Sam was convinced that my father was going to hell. The reason? My father didn't go to church.
But, there I go. Trying to apply logic to Christian thought.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Edited by mmoffitt
Jan. 19, 2005, 08:54:40 AM EST
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Post #190,669
1/18/05 7:08:23 PM
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^ Sorry, this was intended for Religion.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #190,683
1/18/05 8:09:52 PM
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Gee. I guess it's my Christianity that makes me say that.
Silly boy. If I thought that the bulk of humanity could strive for all it's worth without incentive, I'd have no problem with it.
I guess that the bulk of humanity isn't as mature as JC was. Wait! Isn't that something that most Christians might say?
Besides - I thought that communist dogma (yes, dogma) was antithetical to religion (opiate of the masses that it is). Perhaps that dogma might have had some sort of effect on Christian opinion? Perhaps the blatent anti-Christian bigotry that you spew might alienate Christians from you and those who hold opinions like yours?
Nah. That CAN'T be it.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #190,746
1/19/05 8:51:06 AM
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It is an opiate.
And even a cursory review of world history would clearly demonstrate that. Religion is most often used as a means of oppression. But, don't worry the priests say, "It'll be better in heaven -- promise!". The "opiate" effect is that religion enables the proletariat to suffer more "in this life" on a promise of things to come "in the next life". Religion is the pain-killer for the working class in a capitalist society. Are we clear on that now?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #190,759
1/19/05 10:25:46 AM
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Yawn. (new thread)
Created as new thread #190758 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=190758|Yawn.]
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Post #190,712
1/18/05 10:42:49 PM
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Umm, point missed. "Godless" communism, eh?
I mean really, whats the point of following christ's teachings if you don't also follow the church's teachings?
-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken
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Post #190,716
1/18/05 10:50:32 PM
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<naive>Umm, aren't they the same?</naive>
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #190,717
1/18/05 10:53:50 PM
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You'll notice I used a lowercase "c"
-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken
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Post #190,728
1/19/05 12:23:48 AM
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Yes I did
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #190,748
1/19/05 9:07:50 AM
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Problem is...
you were talking about theoretical Communism. Not a lot of people really understand the difference, and most automatically associate the word with the "evil empire of Russia (USSR)" which was not a real Communist state by the original definition of the word.
~~~)-Steven----
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."
General George S. Patton
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Post #190,756
1/19/05 10:21:37 AM
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And did not claim to be.
A point that is also often missed.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #190,757
1/19/05 10:24:31 AM
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The problem with "Communism" vs. "Real Socialism"
While the likes of mmofitt are soul-searching, trying to figure if they are worthy the lofty title of Communist, the Stalins, Lenins and Trotskys of the world are setting up the Gulag. By the time MikeM is done (yes, he is finally done, he decided that he is not worthy, in the end), the Gulag is ready to take him. And it shall ever be so, for such is the human nature.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,905
1/19/05 11:24:34 PM
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Unvarnished pravda!
Alex
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #190,932
1/20/05 6:06:30 AM
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"Human nature"
Maybe.
Maybe, though - only for so long as that 'nature' remains stalled in primitive fear-based cosmologies, anthropomorphic deities and the like - thus remaining
even more fearful ... of that which they dare not explore, within or without.
(Then again, perhaps there Is a seppuku gene, as it appears..)
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Post #190,937
1/20/05 7:55:55 AM
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Name me one philosophy that assumes
perfectable humans and does not lead to a disaster when applied in practice...
The idea that man is good leads to disasters.
The idea that man is bad leads to ... what we have now.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,949
1/20/05 9:09:49 AM
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Taoism.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #190,966
1/20/05 11:09:11 AM
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Not familiar enough with the history of China
But what little research I did shows that
1) Taoism has been a state religion in China for a long time, along with Confucianism
2) Taoism seems to think that people are essentially good
However, other places seem to say that the Conficianism had much more to do with actually running the state than Taoism, and it's not quite clear what the hell Taoism thinks.
Do we have an expert around here?
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,973
1/20/05 12:15:44 PM
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We have *lots* of experts around here
You don't expect any two of them to agree, do you?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #190,974
1/20/05 12:21:13 PM
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For starters, I'd like to hear one of them speak :)
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,980
1/20/05 12:37:47 PM
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"The name that can be named is not the eternal name."
Chapter 1
The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.
Chapter 2
Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.
All can know good as good only because there is evil.
Therefore having and not having arise together.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short contrast each other:
High and low rest upon each other;
Voice and sound harmonize each other;
Front and back follow one another.
Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no-talking.
The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease,
Creating, yet not.
Working, yet not taking credit.
Work is done, then forgotten.
Therefore it lasts forever.
Chapter 8
The highest good is like water.
Water give life to the ten thousand things and does not strive.
It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao.
In dwelling, be close to the land.
In meditation, go deep in the heart.
In dealing with others, be gentle and kind.
In speech, be true.
In ruling, be just.
In daily life, be competent.
In action, be aware of the time and the season.
No fight: No blame.
The Tao Te Ching is, for lack of a better word, The Bible of Taoism. Those are some of my favorite chapters. The translations vary slightly between one another. Chuang Tzu's writings read a little easier for most. They're written more in the form of western religions (iow, stories). When I was 12 I sought out Taoism on my own - scared hell out of my mother because she was raised (and remains) a Southern Baptist. I went to several churches, both Catholic and Protestant, but none that spoke to me. Taoism did. Taoism is non-theistic, not to be confused with aetheistic. Taoism doesn't ponder the question. One of Chuang Tzu's stories (severely paraphrased and simplified) speaks to the existence of a deity. Life is a corridor and death is a door. As you pass through the corridor, if you focus on the door and what potentially lies beyond it, you miss everything in the corridor. I was glad I found Taosim when I did. At 13 I lost three of my closest friends in an automobile accident that left my mom in the hospital for 18 months. I kept thinking about one of Chuang Tzu's stories about a man who hears that his friend's wife has died. He knew the couple loved each other dearly and that they had been married a very long time. He went to see his friend to offer his condolences. When he arrived at his friend's house, he was horrified to find his friend laughing, feasting and having a party. He said to his friend, "Have you no feeling? How can you enjoy yourself so? Do you not mourn the death of your wife?" His friend replied, "If I mourn her death, I would be mourning her birth and how could I do that?" bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #191,046
1/21/05 1:55:43 AM
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By employing the very basis for the illusionary
[??] "world of duality", digital choice - "Man is Good/Bad - take your pick":
you circumscribe the construction of any Useful question to ask "about the possibilities of the species" -- guaranteeing a priori, a reductio.. after the tiresome Boolean exercise is done. If Beauty is something about seeking the right Questions to ask, what if our Big 'Q'uestions have been all-along entirely too maudlin, pedestrian.. rooted as they so often are: in the Primitive and appealing mostly to the instinctive fight/flight brain.
A story told by the famous piano accompanist, [link|http://www.grainger.de/dbe/sbs/mref009.html| Gerald Moore] re his experience with many Immortals - including the Great Russian basso, Fyodor Chaliapin:
~~We played through the song.
Chaliapin says, "Is.. too.. high."
"Very well", I say and transpose down a half-tone.
We finish and Chaliapin says, "Is.. too.. low.
. . .
Have.. you.. nothing.. in.. between?"
So I played .. .. Both. [think chopsticks].
ie one way to rephrase would consider the possibility of the species - not so much 'evolving' as, simply -- learning to Value the remembering of one's 'Consciousness', while learning to love the Unanswerable Questions about "a One's" origins -- and working at raising that level of Consciousness. Er, fairly often in a day - that is.
(Of course, such an aim might require the cultivation, inculcation even: of a compelling desire for growth in that direction / and quite less-urgent desires for, say: Owning One or Two of Everything imaginable? With leather seats.)
Might not work out. But it's a thought.
Beats: Good/Bad - take your pick ;-)
moi
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Post #191,116
1/21/05 6:37:42 PM
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Thank you for mangling my words
I did not say "good/bad". I said "perfectable humans". While I may not have been using the best term, it's certainly not as simple as "good/bad".
Waht I meant to say is "most humans, when left to themselves, without daily repeated conditioninig and without daily repeated moral struggle, have the tendency to do the right thing (whatever the ideology in question considers the right thing)".
For example:
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to devote their life to study and observation of Torah. (counterexample - Judaism does not say this)
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to love their neighbors as themselves. (counterexample - Christianity does not say this)
Germans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to be the Wonderful Arian Beings. (not sure where to put this one - the system collapsed not because they failed to be Perfect Arians (and yes they did fail), but because it was limited to Germans only)
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to live for peace and longevity.
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, enjoy production and will be happy to satisfy others' needs.
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to rationally consider the rational world and deal with other humans on the rational, long-view basis. (this has never been attempted in reality, but an adherent of this one recently remarked that Govt should not send money to tzunami victims)
Is this sufficiently nuanced for you?
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #191,136
1/21/05 11:19:50 PM
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Ah well, rereading for nuance -
And yes: "absence of correlation" between the sayings of Sages and the daily activities of those who claim to follow their Principles. And always, for perspective - "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain Forgive my reading The idea that man is good leads to disasters.
The idea that man is bad leads to ... what we have now.
as a generalization hardly suggestive of any remedy, other than 'conserving' the status quo -- because it Works So Well. Still, even the idea of capitalized- Good, Bad - mandates a higher scale 'Objective' 'Morality' (whether imposed from Above or 'interpreted' via some Acolytes of Mr. Above). And all of Western religiosity seeks that Authority, searches "outside" .. for that which is manifestly "inside". Natch - nothing can be done with or perhaps.. because of such assertions. cf. alt-religion or other mosh pits. All I mean is (what I said) The species remains stuck in the dregs of an attitude towards the umm ineffable which is based upon earliest fear-based atavism. Primitives constructed a Deity with human quirks, a One demanding perpetual adoration .. and a One instantly capable of horrific retribution. Ever thus - since. It's still ALL ABOUT FEAR and about the anthropomorphizing of the Unknowable - to accommodate limited homo-sap jelloware - which is even more obtuse, in mob form. ('Love' may be closer to the OS of that ineffable Cosmic Unknowable - but many humans screw up even that magnificent Idea(l) just as badly as they did with the duelling MyGodIsGreater construct.) I figure - we'll outgrow that infancy, and pretty soon -?- or kill selves off in mid-adolescence. Pretty soon. [Some are, and currently: Longing for Just That denouement + 'My' Face-time with #1] Flip coin.
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