Post #190,149
1/14/05 8:29:18 AM
|
Um, ...
But I thought you were arguing for these very same clowns to have socio-political influence?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #190,151
1/14/05 9:00:45 AM
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OK. Get this. Get it right.
We are supposed to have separation of church and state. Not all Christians want a theocracy - even fundies. As for socio-political influence, they have a right to a voice and representation, if they can get it - others have a right to oppose them. If you are bitter that not enough of the American people opposed the evil of the Neocons, fine. I'm bitter about that too.
I support Republican Democracy (no, not a democracy controlled by the political party) because I really believe it's the best system humanity has come up with so far for government.
I do not support your cry of "I didn't get my way through the elections so the principle of free elections are broken".
I don't have to support the 'winners' because I support the system that allowed them to win. Further, not all of the "winners" support what folk on the fringe - there are fringe nutcases in every social group that has ever existed.
If I cheer when the protections we have in place work, that isn't a contradiction in terms.
Get it?
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #190,158
1/14/05 9:39:20 AM
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I don't think he does "get it"
And while the general subject of the article is supportable...did a judge just rule that evolution is science >fact< and any questioning of that fact is an actual >ENDORSEMENT< of religion?
I think thats a bit strong in the other direction.
I'm not arguing against evolution...but last I checked there were still some intellectual leeps required to start at the goo and get to a human. I'll admit not having paid much attention to the subject since high school biology...but have the proven everything since then (ages ago)
Intelligent design is a bridging theory that affirms evolutionary steps (I thought) ... does offering that as an alternative truly ENDORSE religion or just offer the possibility that "those nutcases" might have a point?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #190,175
1/14/05 10:34:39 AM
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No, he didn't.
A judge ruled that evolution is a scientific theory.
Just like gravity is a scientific theory.
I'm reminded, when the word "theory" is bandied around as meaning "hypothesis", of "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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Post #190,177
1/14/05 10:38:30 AM
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But his ruling..
...basically states taht any statement critical of that scientific theory is an official endorsement of religion...EVEN WHEN RELIGION ISN'T MENTIONED.
Am I the only one that sees the ice on that hillside?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #190,178
1/14/05 10:40:31 AM
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No.
I think you're reaching too far. What the problem is, is that a specific theory (scientific sense) that is contradictory to the fundamentalists' belief system is being singled out for attention.
It's noticeable that these people (the fundamentalists) do not have a problem with science when they drive their cars, get into an aircraft, post crazy websites on the internet, take large amounts of cocaine or build air-conditioned kennels for their pet dogs.
But evolution? OH NOES!
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Post #190,212
1/14/05 3:12:28 PM
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ACLU made this point better
Heard their lawyer on NPR last night. She said in the end all scientific theories are just that: theories. To single out this one theory as being more questionable than all the others demonstrates that the sticker was not an exhortation to continually question conventional wisdom. No matter how neutral the text of the sticker may have been, its application to a single scientific theory was sufficient to demonstrate the implicit support of the alternative theory put forth by the members of the school board who had the stickers made.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #190,222
1/14/05 3:57:52 PM
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Thats a little better...
...but without reading the entire judgement...this is a pretty fine line they are playing with. That is my only worry.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #190,224
1/14/05 4:08:12 PM
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It is a fine line
It is a fine line, but it isn't the judge that brought it up. It was brought into the case when the sticker people set out to find a way to violate the spirit of the constitution without violating the words of the constitution.
Jay
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Post #190,228
1/14/05 4:35:54 PM
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But I am less likely to...
...be upset about a school board that will eventually die off and and a legal ruling that will stick around for-evah.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #190,246
1/14/05 7:52:01 PM
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Other outcome would also have set precedent
When then school board tried, as Jay so succinctly put it, to violate the spirit of the constitution while not violating the letter, they forced the issue. They're trying to force the issue. As long as all the teachers "just know" what they're supposed to say, but there's no stickers in the textbooks, the majority might be getting what they want. But this majority[1] wants their position validated by the court. It's their stated agenda. Look for any sites advocating ID theory and you'll see it laid out plainly.
If they're going to force the issue to the courts, I hope the courts continue to do the right thing, as they did in this case.
[1] Majority of those who care about it enough to make a huge issue of it, anyway.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
|
Post #190,280
1/15/05 3:40:37 AM
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Next time someone says "evolution's just a theory"...
...remind them that the laws of thermodynamics that make their cars go are also "just a theory". Gravity is "just a theory". The carbon cycle is "just a theory".
My, how I detest the phrase "just a theory".
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #190,289
1/15/05 7:49:28 AM
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*GRIN*
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #190,180
1/14/05 11:26:17 AM
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Judge didn't say that.
He said: "While evolution is subject to criticism, particularly with respect to the mechanism by which it occurred, the sticker misleads students regarding the significance and value of evolution in the scientific community." An absolutely true statement. [link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #190,192
1/14/05 1:18:19 PM
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Assumes too much
Based on what the sticker says, I think he's reaching.
And while I agree with his reach and the outcome...the way it was done is problematic for me...because it will be used to over-reach in the opposite direction.
There are times when I beleive the "separation of church and state" clause is not used as intended, but rather used by a small minority to actively discriminate against ALL religion.
And since its based (very loosely) on constitutional doctrine, it escapes scrutiny of its real intent which is discrimination. No better than exluding color...and you can see the extreme of the view from dozens of recent posts...the pendulum has swung too far...and this I see as a way to keep it swinging.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #190,195
1/14/05 1:35:28 PM
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I must disagree.
To imply that anyone other than those with a religious motive is questioning whether 'the origin of living things' involves evolution is FALSE.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #190,198
1/14/05 1:46:26 PM
|
But the opposite
is to completely disqualify any alternative and/or any marriage of that scientific structure into any other set of beliefs.
It is not allowing gray...which, in the end, is what area this falls in, like it or not.
And MY issue is not this sticker being removed...it was a stupid idea. Its the fact that this ruling was such a stretch based on the crafting of the sticker's language...that this ruling will extend well beyond science textbooks.
It was done with the right intention, exacted the correct reponse...but in a way I fear will be abused.
Thats all.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #190,204
1/14/05 2:11:11 PM
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Ummm.
This was a book on evolution. The sticker wasn't adding anything to it, it wasn't fitting evolution into any other framework, nothing like that. It was only there to question the validity of evolution. Not the details, not where evolution fits in the scheme of things.
I don't see anything bad here.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #190,184
1/14/05 12:49:01 PM
|
Use the Source Beep!
[link|http://www.aclu.org/Files/OpenFile.cfm?id=17310|Ruling] - a 44 page .pdf. It's an image so I'm unable to cut and paste the text. But here is an excerpt: p.42: Adopted by the school board, funded by the money of taxpayers, and inserted by school personnel, the Sticker conveys an impermissible message of endorsement and tells some citizens that they are political outsiders while telling others that they are political insiders. Regardless of whether teachers comply with the Cobb County School District's regulations on theories of origin and regardless of the discussions that actually take place in the Cobb County science classrooms, the Sticker has already sent a message that the School Board agrees with the beliefs of Christian fundamentalists and creationists. The School Board has effectively improperly entangled itself with religion by appearing to take a position. Therefore the Sticker must be removed from all of the textbooks into which it has been placed. Happy browsing. :-) Cheers, Scott.
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Post #190,528
1/17/05 10:42:31 PM
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a simple sticker that sez "evolution is gay" prob solved
or educated negroes believe this
a jew wrote this book
the above 3 would have had the same effect and kept religion out of it as long as all the school board members name and adresses were on the bottom of the sticker. Code words is code words,
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #190,691
1/18/05 9:36:44 PM
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Al punte - code words *indeed*
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Post #190,230
1/14/05 4:50:22 PM
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No, that is not too far
Evolution is about "descent with modification" - it covers how life diversified into current forms. It does not address how life started, that would be abiogenesis which is a substantially harder question. (And isn't helped by the fact that we're trying to figure out molecular interactions that happened billions of years ago and didn't exactly fossilize very well.) What the judge ruled is exactly correct. Evolution is clearly science fact. And has been accepted as such within science for close to a century with no major challenges. The theory of intelligent design is the attempt to reintroduce God into evolution. Fine. It is not a testable theory, and hence is not an appropriate subject matter for scientific investigation. That is not a statement that it is necessarily wrong - just a statement that it makes no predictions or claims that can be tested and hence cannot be addressed by science. However I'll say that the history of science suggests that the gaps that intelligent design folks point to have a tendancy to shrink and shrink. In fact a lot of the ones that they think require explanation don't - but to see that you need to understand what happens on timescales which are so vast that our intuition of what is likely to happen leads us astray. Incidentally the best comment that I know of against Intelligent design comes from Mark Twain: Man has been here 32,000 years. That it took a hundred million years to prepare the world for him is proof that that is what it was done for. I suppose it is. I dunno. If the Eiffel tower were now representing the world's age, the skin of paint on the pinnacle-knob at its summit would represent man's share of that age; & anybody would perceive that that skin was what the tower was built for. I reckon they would. I dunno. (Note that when Twain wrote we had not yet discovered radioactive dating, and so had no accurate way of figuring out the true age of man or of the Earth.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #190,288
1/15/05 6:22:09 AM
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I see it more starkly -
Stickers stating, "this is 'just' a theory" are akin to,
Log entry:
The Captain was on the bridge. And he was sober.
Ah the inflections of straightforward English, uttered by un-straightforward crooked tongue.
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Post #190,181
1/14/05 12:03:45 PM
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Okay, now you get this.
I do not support your cry of "I didn't get my way through the elections so the principle of free elections are broken".
That is not my lamentation and you know it. Only by the most disingenous reading could you arrive at that.
But, back on point. Since you are a true believer in democracy for all peoples, why would you not oppose taking this sticker to court? If the majority wants to disregard evolution - or at least put that sticker on textbooks - why do you not want them to? Or is it that democracy has some limits?
Isn't this just a case of "You not agreeing with the majority of people, so you're subverting their right to educate their children in the manner they see fit."
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #190,185
1/14/05 12:49:23 PM
1/14/05 12:51:08 PM
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Remember your Civics/Social Studies classes.
Remember what a Republican Democracy is.
Remember about protections that exist between church and state in OUR Republican Democracy.
Then look up democracy and mob rule, and how Democracy differs from Republican Democracy...
Next -
It is NOT disingenious - you would exclude the ability for a 'class' of people to have a voice in government. Why? Because people have been elected and appointed to office that believe things that you don't, and your characterization of those beliefs frightens you.
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189577|The Fundies are dangerous and should be banned from serving.]
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189678|what frightens me most about the rise of the religious right is that they have a say in our body politic]
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189588|anyone who thinks they are on a mission from God should be banned.]
I don't recall your calling for people to be excluded from government based on religion BEFORE this election. Feel free to link to a post that contradicts me if I'm wrong.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
Edited by imric
Jan. 14, 2005, 12:51:08 PM EST
|
Post #190,188
1/14/05 12:55:13 PM
|
ps. Should you feel the need to respond to this (new thread)
Created as new thread #190187 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=190187|ps. Should you feel the need to respond to this]
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #190,389
1/16/05 2:45:23 PM
|
I'd also ban Nazis. That makes me Evul as well I guess.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #190,393
1/16/05 3:07:57 PM
|
Yup.
I assume you wouldn't ban Commies, though they are as distasteful as the Nazi reference you are trying to make.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #190,465
1/17/05 9:09:20 AM
|
Right.
They got all that equality crap in their dogma.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #190,666
1/18/05 7:07:11 PM
1/19/05 8:54:40 AM
|
You know what has always slayed me?
Back in college at a pub known as Mcguire's in Hickory, NC, I was debating 'communism' with a couple of college buds. One, a confirmed member of the Reagan Youth Capitalist Class, the other between me and him. At one point, the Reagan Youth started rambling on and on, not allowing me to make a comment. At this point, we'd had more than several pints and, (in a gesture I thought humorous) I took off my shoe, banged it on the bar and said, "Goddamnit! Jesus Christ was the only Communist who ever lived." I said it loud, I guess, certainly not loud enough to carry over the den in the pub. But, everything went quiet - I mean, absolutely quiet when I said that and everyone was staring at us as we backed ever so carefully out of that establishment.
I have always been amazed at the attitude toward Communism that Christians of all stripes - but especially the fundies - have. The teachings of Christ merge so well with Communist Doctrine ("Take what you have and give it to the poor", etc.) and the teachings of Capitalism ("Greed is Good. Greed is not enough.", etc.) are such an anathema to Christian rhetoric that I've never understood why Christians *hate* Communism so much.
Could it be (as I suspect) that for Christians, the teachings of Christ are good for Sundays but not the way they really want to live? I'm reminded of a good friend of my father's (call him Sam). A "devout" Catholic who swore enough to make the roughest sailor blush. A second friend of my father's (call him Joe) used to play golf with Sam and my dad. After several months of listening to Sam swear with every sentence, Sam mentioned in the presence of Joe that "he had to go to mass at 7:30, so he couldn't play until 9". Joe, incredulous that Sam attended church asked, "Sam, you go to church?" Sam replied, "Every damned Sunday. The goddamned thing only lasts 45 minutes."
Interestingly, Sam was convinced that my father was going to hell. The reason? My father didn't go to church.
But, there I go. Trying to apply logic to Christian thought.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Edited by mmoffitt
Jan. 19, 2005, 08:54:40 AM EST
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Post #190,669
1/18/05 7:08:23 PM
|
^ Sorry, this was intended for Religion.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #190,683
1/18/05 8:09:52 PM
|
Gee. I guess it's my Christianity that makes me say that.
Silly boy. If I thought that the bulk of humanity could strive for all it's worth without incentive, I'd have no problem with it.
I guess that the bulk of humanity isn't as mature as JC was. Wait! Isn't that something that most Christians might say?
Besides - I thought that communist dogma (yes, dogma) was antithetical to religion (opiate of the masses that it is). Perhaps that dogma might have had some sort of effect on Christian opinion? Perhaps the blatent anti-Christian bigotry that you spew might alienate Christians from you and those who hold opinions like yours?
Nah. That CAN'T be it.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #190,746
1/19/05 8:51:06 AM
|
It is an opiate.
And even a cursory review of world history would clearly demonstrate that. Religion is most often used as a means of oppression. But, don't worry the priests say, "It'll be better in heaven -- promise!". The "opiate" effect is that religion enables the proletariat to suffer more "in this life" on a promise of things to come "in the next life". Religion is the pain-killer for the working class in a capitalist society. Are we clear on that now?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #190,759
1/19/05 10:25:46 AM
|
Yawn. (new thread)
Created as new thread #190758 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=190758|Yawn.]
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Post #190,712
1/18/05 10:42:49 PM
|
Umm, point missed. "Godless" communism, eh?
I mean really, whats the point of following christ's teachings if you don't also follow the church's teachings?
-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken
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Post #190,716
1/18/05 10:50:32 PM
|
<naive>Umm, aren't they the same?</naive>
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
|
Post #190,717
1/18/05 10:53:50 PM
|
You'll notice I used a lowercase "c"
-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken
|
Post #190,728
1/19/05 12:23:48 AM
|
Yes I did
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
|
Post #190,748
1/19/05 9:07:50 AM
|
Problem is...
you were talking about theoretical Communism. Not a lot of people really understand the difference, and most automatically associate the word with the "evil empire of Russia (USSR)" which was not a real Communist state by the original definition of the word.
~~~)-Steven----
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."
General George S. Patton
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Post #190,756
1/19/05 10:21:37 AM
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And did not claim to be.
A point that is also often missed.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #190,757
1/19/05 10:24:31 AM
|
The problem with "Communism" vs. "Real Socialism"
While the likes of mmofitt are soul-searching, trying to figure if they are worthy the lofty title of Communist, the Stalins, Lenins and Trotskys of the world are setting up the Gulag. By the time MikeM is done (yes, he is finally done, he decided that he is not worthy, in the end), the Gulag is ready to take him. And it shall ever be so, for such is the human nature.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,905
1/19/05 11:24:34 PM
|
Unvarnished pravda!
Alex
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #190,932
1/20/05 6:06:30 AM
|
"Human nature"
Maybe.
Maybe, though - only for so long as that 'nature' remains stalled in primitive fear-based cosmologies, anthropomorphic deities and the like - thus remaining
even more fearful ... of that which they dare not explore, within or without.
(Then again, perhaps there Is a seppuku gene, as it appears..)
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Post #190,937
1/20/05 7:55:55 AM
|
Name me one philosophy that assumes
perfectable humans and does not lead to a disaster when applied in practice...
The idea that man is good leads to disasters.
The idea that man is bad leads to ... what we have now.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
|
Post #190,949
1/20/05 9:09:49 AM
|
Taoism.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #190,966
1/20/05 11:09:11 AM
|
Not familiar enough with the history of China
But what little research I did shows that
1) Taoism has been a state religion in China for a long time, along with Confucianism
2) Taoism seems to think that people are essentially good
However, other places seem to say that the Conficianism had much more to do with actually running the state than Taoism, and it's not quite clear what the hell Taoism thinks.
Do we have an expert around here?
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,973
1/20/05 12:15:44 PM
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We have *lots* of experts around here
You don't expect any two of them to agree, do you?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #190,974
1/20/05 12:21:13 PM
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For starters, I'd like to hear one of them speak :)
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,980
1/20/05 12:37:47 PM
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"The name that can be named is not the eternal name."
Chapter 1
The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.
Chapter 2
Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.
All can know good as good only because there is evil.
Therefore having and not having arise together.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short contrast each other:
High and low rest upon each other;
Voice and sound harmonize each other;
Front and back follow one another.
Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no-talking.
The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease,
Creating, yet not.
Working, yet not taking credit.
Work is done, then forgotten.
Therefore it lasts forever.
Chapter 8
The highest good is like water.
Water give life to the ten thousand things and does not strive.
It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao.
In dwelling, be close to the land.
In meditation, go deep in the heart.
In dealing with others, be gentle and kind.
In speech, be true.
In ruling, be just.
In daily life, be competent.
In action, be aware of the time and the season.
No fight: No blame.
The Tao Te Ching is, for lack of a better word, The Bible of Taoism. Those are some of my favorite chapters. The translations vary slightly between one another. Chuang Tzu's writings read a little easier for most. They're written more in the form of western religions (iow, stories). When I was 12 I sought out Taoism on my own - scared hell out of my mother because she was raised (and remains) a Southern Baptist. I went to several churches, both Catholic and Protestant, but none that spoke to me. Taoism did. Taoism is non-theistic, not to be confused with aetheistic. Taoism doesn't ponder the question. One of Chuang Tzu's stories (severely paraphrased and simplified) speaks to the existence of a deity. Life is a corridor and death is a door. As you pass through the corridor, if you focus on the door and what potentially lies beyond it, you miss everything in the corridor. I was glad I found Taosim when I did. At 13 I lost three of my closest friends in an automobile accident that left my mom in the hospital for 18 months. I kept thinking about one of Chuang Tzu's stories about a man who hears that his friend's wife has died. He knew the couple loved each other dearly and that they had been married a very long time. He went to see his friend to offer his condolences. When he arrived at his friend's house, he was horrified to find his friend laughing, feasting and having a party. He said to his friend, "Have you no feeling? How can you enjoy yourself so? Do you not mourn the death of your wife?" His friend replied, "If I mourn her death, I would be mourning her birth and how could I do that?" bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #191,046
1/21/05 1:55:43 AM
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By employing the very basis for the illusionary
[??] "world of duality", digital choice - "Man is Good/Bad - take your pick":
you circumscribe the construction of any Useful question to ask "about the possibilities of the species" -- guaranteeing a priori, a reductio.. after the tiresome Boolean exercise is done. If Beauty is something about seeking the right Questions to ask, what if our Big 'Q'uestions have been all-along entirely too maudlin, pedestrian.. rooted as they so often are: in the Primitive and appealing mostly to the instinctive fight/flight brain.
A story told by the famous piano accompanist, [link|http://www.grainger.de/dbe/sbs/mref009.html| Gerald Moore] re his experience with many Immortals - including the Great Russian basso, Fyodor Chaliapin:
~~We played through the song.
Chaliapin says, "Is.. too.. high."
"Very well", I say and transpose down a half-tone.
We finish and Chaliapin says, "Is.. too.. low.
. . .
Have.. you.. nothing.. in.. between?"
So I played .. .. Both. [think chopsticks].
ie one way to rephrase would consider the possibility of the species - not so much 'evolving' as, simply -- learning to Value the remembering of one's 'Consciousness', while learning to love the Unanswerable Questions about "a One's" origins -- and working at raising that level of Consciousness. Er, fairly often in a day - that is.
(Of course, such an aim might require the cultivation, inculcation even: of a compelling desire for growth in that direction / and quite less-urgent desires for, say: Owning One or Two of Everything imaginable? With leather seats.)
Might not work out. But it's a thought.
Beats: Good/Bad - take your pick ;-)
moi
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Post #191,116
1/21/05 6:37:42 PM
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Thank you for mangling my words
I did not say "good/bad". I said "perfectable humans". While I may not have been using the best term, it's certainly not as simple as "good/bad".
Waht I meant to say is "most humans, when left to themselves, without daily repeated conditioninig and without daily repeated moral struggle, have the tendency to do the right thing (whatever the ideology in question considers the right thing)".
For example:
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to devote their life to study and observation of Torah. (counterexample - Judaism does not say this)
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to love their neighbors as themselves. (counterexample - Christianity does not say this)
Germans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to be the Wonderful Arian Beings. (not sure where to put this one - the system collapsed not because they failed to be Perfect Arians (and yes they did fail), but because it was limited to Germans only)
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to live for peace and longevity.
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, enjoy production and will be happy to satisfy others' needs.
Humans, in mass, when left to themselves, tend to rationally consider the rational world and deal with other humans on the rational, long-view basis. (this has never been attempted in reality, but an adherent of this one recently remarked that Govt should not send money to tzunami victims)
Is this sufficiently nuanced for you?
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #191,136
1/21/05 11:19:50 PM
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Ah well, rereading for nuance -
And yes: "absence of correlation" between the sayings of Sages and the daily activities of those who claim to follow their Principles. And always, for perspective - "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain Forgive my reading The idea that man is good leads to disasters.
The idea that man is bad leads to ... what we have now.
as a generalization hardly suggestive of any remedy, other than 'conserving' the status quo -- because it Works So Well. Still, even the idea of capitalized- Good, Bad - mandates a higher scale 'Objective' 'Morality' (whether imposed from Above or 'interpreted' via some Acolytes of Mr. Above). And all of Western religiosity seeks that Authority, searches "outside" .. for that which is manifestly "inside". Natch - nothing can be done with or perhaps.. because of such assertions. cf. alt-religion or other mosh pits. All I mean is (what I said) The species remains stuck in the dregs of an attitude towards the umm ineffable which is based upon earliest fear-based atavism. Primitives constructed a Deity with human quirks, a One demanding perpetual adoration .. and a One instantly capable of horrific retribution. Ever thus - since. It's still ALL ABOUT FEAR and about the anthropomorphizing of the Unknowable - to accommodate limited homo-sap jelloware - which is even more obtuse, in mob form. ('Love' may be closer to the OS of that ineffable Cosmic Unknowable - but many humans screw up even that magnificent Idea(l) just as badly as they did with the duelling MyGodIsGreater construct.) I figure - we'll outgrow that infancy, and pretty soon -?- or kill selves off in mid-adolescence. Pretty soon. [Some are, and currently: Longing for Just That denouement + 'My' Face-time with #1] Flip coin.
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