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New The point you may have missed
I wouldn't want that doctor, and I'm not voting for Bush either.

But look at your closing thought: Of course too, all realize that there is absolutely no way to expect some 'law' change to prevent a religio-loony and lots of other kinds - from say, achieving let's even say: control over the Bagman's codes.

I only wish that was true. This argument is over the fact that Mike apparently does seem to think that it is reasonable and desirable to make a law change to prevent religio-loonies from having access to political power. And doesn't understand why many of us (myself included) see this as advocating something that would cause irreparable harm to the principle of American democracy.

I'd also like to wave a magic wand and have the problem go away. But banning fundamentalist Christians from political office isn't the way to do it.

What would happen if there was such a ban? Well quite simply, the principle of having a democracy that everyone is free to participate in would be gone. The principle that the government will not discriminate on the basis of faith would be gone. And the banned religious people would just lie about their beliefs and continue to participate anyways unless we went to more draconian measures (which are an even more obvious violation of the ideals that we'd like to believe that we have).

I think you recognize this, after all you've said that there's absolutely no way to expect this. Mike obviously doesn't, and when he fails to understand something this basic, there are literally no grounds for communication.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I understand your point.
But it wasn't ever my point. I raised the question - is democracy a good idea when the majority of people who vote are bent on (or at least looking forward to) the destruction of life on the planet? Clearly, I think, from the viewpoint of everyone living outside said environment - and the minority of rational minds within that environment even, democracy is not a good idea, especially when said environment has the tools to actually end life on the planet.

The non-existent, idealized version of American Democracy you are so enamored of requires an educated, tolerant people in order to produce enlightened leadership. What passes for democracy in this country has clearly not yielded enlightened leadership. So where is the problem? I'd argue that the idealized version of American Democracy you speak of will never come to exist because the voting majority of the American People will never be educated or tolerant. Further, to my way of thinking, the rise of fundamentalist Christianity and its influence over our governance guarantees that the voting majority here will forever remain uneducated, egotistical, intolerant and yes, dangerous.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New Mike, listen to yourself.
I once conceded an argument when I relized I was about to defend the internment of Japanese Americans during WW-2. I think you're way past the point where it's better to re-read your posts and re-consider your premises.
--


- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

New Sorry.
I re-read everything I wrote and stand by it. I'm also not going to post here anymore in deference to right-shift issues, which I, myself, am beginning to have trouble with. Ashton's post in the other forum is a nice summary (and I think perhaps less inflamatory) of what I intended to posit. ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New Moving on ---> to metaphysics and The non-Spotless Mind (new thread)
Created as new thread #189969 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189969|Moving on ---> to metaphysics and The non-Spotless Mind]


The common condition of things that did not happen is that you cannot disprove them.
Anon.

Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both.
- James Madison

As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more
and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and
glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire
at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

H.L. Mencken
     "Kind of a Shame" - article - (dmcarls) - (163)
         Also linked there - - (Ashton) - (162)
             Right... - (bepatient) - (157)
                 Ha! - (imric) - (156)
                     Wrong. - (bepatient) - (155)
                         Keep telling yourself that - (GBert) - (2)
                             What evidence? - (bepatient) - (1)
                                 I have no evidence myself - (GBert)
                         Oh. So Kerry bullied Bush. Bwahahaha! - (imric) - (151)
                             Interesting. - (bepatient) - (150)
                                 Listen to YOU. - (imric) - (147)
                                     I don't think you understand. - (bepatient) - (146)
                                         I do - (SpiceWare) - (1)
                                             Not wrong. - (bepatient)
                                         And I know you don't. - (imric) - (143)
                                             The pity is that there will be. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                             Well, you're meeting wrong people. - (Arkadiy) - (141)
                                                 With her vote, she hates the Constitution more. :-( -NT - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                                     Thanks for continuing to make my point. -NT - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                         Q 4 U. - (mmoffitt)
                                                         yep... - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                                                             Well they could have... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                 I thought.... - (Simon_Jester)
                                                 Mmm hmm. - (imric) - (134)
                                                     Answers - (Arkadiy) - (133)
                                                         Fair enough. - (imric) - (2)
                                                             It's a free country. You're entitled to your own opinion. - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                                 ROFL. Hate? - (imric)
                                                         "lesser evil"?????? - (mmoffitt) - (129)
                                                             Why don't you link to that quote. - (bepatient) - (128)
                                                                 Why would one require a 'link' to a tenet which - (Ashton)
                                                                 Time crunch. Edited for those w/attention spans of Mayflies. - (mmoffitt) - (125)
                                                                     Ahhh...so - (bepatient) - (124)
                                                                         Beep? - (imric) - (3)
                                                                             Izzat - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                 ..and some love their little dog, Blondi -NT - (Ashton)
                                                                                 PERSONALLY, I don't think it's relevent. to the job - (imric)
                                                                         So Herman's lying. Wait, lemme guess.... - (mmoffitt) - (119)
                                                                             so we had a choice between going to hell and - (daemon) - (118)
                                                                                 WTF? Your medication getting low again? - (mmoffitt) - (117)
                                                                                     your implication of the tendancies of a born again christian - (daemon) - (116)
                                                                                         I c. But, I haven't found anything that suggests Kerry ... - (mmoffitt) - (115)
                                                                                             It's funny - (imric)
                                                                                             I think you're making too much of that. - (Another Scott) - (113)
                                                                                                 That was Presidential Candidate Bush. - (mmoffitt) - (112)
                                                                                                     Some of the best people you'd ever meet are born again. - (Another Scott) - (39)
                                                                                                         Ahh, the critical statement - (broomberg) - (15)
                                                                                                             There are good and evil non-believers too. ;-) - (Another Scott) - (14)
                                                                                                                 Oh, I agree - (broomberg) - (13)
                                                                                                                     Wrong - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                                                                                         It depends... - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                                                     Are you defining "true believers" - (imric) - (10)
                                                                                                                         If the dogma includes hell - (broomberg) - (9)
                                                                                                                             *sigh* "The Dogma"? - (imric) - (8)
                                                                                                                                 I dunno - (broomberg) - (7)
                                                                                                                                     "the difference is the true believers believe - (imric) - (3)
                                                                                                                                         link - (daemon) - (2)
                                                                                                                                             {chortle} - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                 Heck, even CRC calls himself Christian! :) -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                                                                                     Merely existense og hell - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                                                                                                         Ha! :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                                                     Love. It. - (Ashton)
                                                                                                         Beg to differ. - (mmoffitt) - (22)
                                                                                                             The problem is your bigotry. - (imric) - (14)
                                                                                                                 Pretty loose slathering of 'bigotry', - (Ashton) - (13)
                                                                                                                     I call Strawman - (Arkadiy)
                                                                                                                     bigotry: n - (imric) - (11)
                                                                                                                         ICLRPD (new thread) - (bepatient)
                                                                                                                         Oh Pshaw - - (Ashton) - (9)
                                                                                                                             A+B+C=mmoffit, ash. Like it or not. - (imric) - (8)
                                                                                                                                 Re: A+B+C=mmoffit, ash. Like it or not. - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                                                                                                     Pope's OK - unlikely ever to drop a nuke. The others ??? -NT - (Ashton) - (6)
                                                                                                                                         Pope is very happy that you aprove of him. -NT - (Arkadiy)
                                                                                                                                         Remember the bumper sticker? - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                                                                                                                                             nuke all the unborn gay whales, revisionist stickerman you -NT - (daemon) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                 I got yer sticker raght cheer. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                     great I ordered 2, what kind of car you got again? :-) -NT - (daemon) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                         On a car in Indiana, those will get you shot! -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                             See 62232 and 65768. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                                                                                                                 Example - (broomberg) - (1)
                                                                                                                     :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                                 There was a difference in 1975. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                                                     I am not a born again - (daemon) - (1)
                                                                                                                         Re: I am not a born again - (bepatient)
                                                                                                                 Unclear on the baggage mix. - (Ashton)
                                                                                                     Right. - (bepatient) - (70)
                                                                                                         1600 of our militia know he is dangerous. - (mmoffitt) - (69)
                                                                                                             Nice subject change - (bepatient) - (68)
                                                                                                                 <sigh> - (mmoffitt) - (67)
                                                                                                                     Thanks for clearing that up. -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                                                                     So those that do not believe as you do should be banned - (imric) - (59)
                                                                                                                         Not at all. - (mmoffitt) - (58)
                                                                                                                             Bah. Ideology Police? Thought Police? - (imric) - (57)
                                                                                                                                 Almost. - (mmoffitt) - (51)
                                                                                                                                     But only >certain< people. - (bepatient)
                                                                                                                                     Oh. Instead your dictatorship would be based upon - (imric) - (49)
                                                                                                                                         Reduced to its simplest form. - (mmoffitt) - (48)
                                                                                                                                             Maybe not. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                 In point of fact, you may be correct. - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                                                             wow, excludes communists, hindoo's, muslims christians - (daemon) - (12)
                                                                                                                                                 You are killing me. - (mmoffitt) - (11)
                                                                                                                                                     ya sure you want to go there? - (daemon) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                         That's not exactly calling for it. More like lamenting. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                             you mean lamentations 1-5? :-) -NT - (daemon)
                                                                                                                                                         BTW, thanks for the link. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                                                                     Oh Mike, Mike - (Arkadiy) - (6)
                                                                                                                                                         I've never apologized for being me ;-) - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                                                                                                                                             As Ben pointed out - (Arkadiy) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                                 But you assume Capitalism == the world. And it doesn't ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                     And you assume that this weary existance is "world" ;o) -NT - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                         I yield to the better argument ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                                                                                         Tilt. Error 666: metaphysical change-of-scale. -NT - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                             Bull. - (imric) - (21)
                                                                                                                                                 Just watch ONE Jack Van Emp television show. Just one. - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                                                                                                                                     Give details. Quote fact. - (imric) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                         It's Impe, btw. Sorry. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                             Bah. Looking forward is NOT 'to bring it about' - (imric) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                 See my first 2 paragraphs of my reply to Ben. (link) - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                     Rationalize all you want. - (imric)
                                                                                                                                                 uh, sorry to burst your bubble - (daemon) - (14)
                                                                                                                                                     Never heard one. - (imric) - (13)
                                                                                                                                                         Enough to elect Dubya. And that is too damned many. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                             So he was elected to 'destroy the world'? Pfah. -NT - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                 If he was, he's succeeding. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                                                                         demographics - (daemon) - (9)
                                                                                                                                                             OK - that's 1 number. - (imric) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                                 Here's another number. - (a6l6e6x) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                                     And how many are urged to bring about the conditions - (imric) - (6)
                                                                                                                                                                         At least this one: - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                             Oh dear...will lithium help? - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                                 (Seems to be only enough for the Red States, currently) -NT - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                                                         I predicted something once. After I saw Bigfoot. - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                                                         Is it Evil to allow destruction when you can prevent it? -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                                                                                         if its time to push the button it gets pushed, or not - (daemon)
                                                                                                                                             Now there's a wrong-headed philosophy - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                                                                                                                 No it isn't. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                     And you remain wrong - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                         OT: Branch this, please. - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                                                                         The arrogance of youth. - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                                                                 Re: Now there's a wrong-headed ... lateral arabesque? - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                                                                                                                     The point you may have missed - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                         I understand your point. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                             Mike, listen to yourself. - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                 Sorry. - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                                                                             Moving on ---> to metaphysics and The non-Spotless Mind (new thread) - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                 he is a neoconn, just a little left of them thats all :-) -NT - (daemon) - (4)
                                                                                                                                     It's a ring thing - (Arkadiy)
                                                                                                                                     I am not a Bolshevik! - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                                                                         bolshevits maybe? - (daemon) - (1)
                                                                                                                                             Sign me up ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                                     Banned how? - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                                                                                                                         Executed as illegal combatants, perhaps? </sarcasm> - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                                                             Nope, all we need is Das Kapital - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                                                                                                 Nope. What is to be done? ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                                         Banned in mmofitt's dreams - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                                                                                             Indeed. More is the pity. :-( -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                     Just to clarify. - (Another Scott)
                                                                 No link from me but - (lincoln)
                                 Applause. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                     If we ever meet at Beep's - (daemon)
             Sometimes a crumb falls... - (dmcarls) - (3)
                 100% predictable.. a mere bagatelle - (Ashton) - (2)
                     So true... - (bepatient) - (1)
                         Wow! a blizzard of sententious sonnets - (Ashton)

Did you like my little stink wafties?
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