Post #189,605
1/10/05 1:28:11 PM
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Almost.
Democracy might be globally too dangerous. If, in a democracy, the majority hold that the end of the world is the most cherished event to strive for and that democractic nation has access to enough nuclear armaments to reduce the world to rubble and then bounce the rubble around 19 or 20 times, it seems to me that a strict dictatorship of the people might be a better option. Provided that dictatorship is not based upon some medieval superstitious religion of fear.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #189,616
1/10/05 2:40:15 PM
1/10/05 2:42:00 PM
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But only >certain< people.
How about blonds?
You would happen to be smallish in build with dark hair and a moustache?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
Edited by bepatient
Jan. 10, 2005, 02:42:00 PM EST
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Post #189,617
1/10/05 2:57:36 PM
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Oh. Instead your dictatorship would be based upon
a 'morality' that judges people and declares their suitability or inferiority based on your own self-righteous agenda.
Oh, you are SO far above the people you criticize. Your superiority is apparent. Why - your ideology is MILES away from the one you claim to despise - it HAS to be. You KNOW that you are superior!
[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]
(just so your apparently delusional psyche doesn't get this post wrong:)
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #189,662
1/10/05 8:47:00 PM
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Reduced to its simplest form.
Here's my position in a nutshell. Anyone whose philosophical belief system leads them to conclude that the world must be destroyed to be saved is not suited for high public office.
If such a position causes me to be a bigot with a superiority complex, so be it.
And like it or not, the above mentioned conclusion is central to fundamentalist Christianity.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #189,672
1/10/05 9:13:38 PM
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Maybe not.
Remember [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=188733|this]? Now a case from Christianity. Many evangelicals stress an apocalyptic verse in the second epistle of Peter which ends: \ufffdthe Earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.\ufffd If it's all going to be consumed by fire, some evangelicals say, then why worry about pollution or climate change? But the oldest existing version of the New Testament, long preserved at St Catherine's monastery on Mount Sinai and now (most of it) in the British Library, has a different Greek verb for the Earth's fate: evretesetai, not katakaesetai. Instead of being burned up, the Earth will be uncovered, its true nature exposed. That, too, is a difference worth studying, for both believers and everyone else. Emphasis added. I doubt that you can point to anyone in particular in the Bush administration that advocates destroying the Earth to hasten the apocalypse. Care to try to surprise me? From what I've read of the Frontline transcripts, and your comments here, you seem to have accepted some caricature of Bush's faith as reality. [link|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/interviews/green.html|E.g.]: [John Green:] [...]
So President Bush, in some sense, stands astride the major Protestant traditions in the United States. [But] \ufffdbecause President Bush has such strong religious beliefs and talks about his faith so explicitly, many people want to categorize him. They want to figure out what religious community or religious tradition he belongs to.
It's a difficult thing to do, because President Bush, in many respects, partakes of a number of different religious traditions. He's a member of the United Methodist Church. He's very closely connected to the Wesleyan tradition, and that leads him to lean a little bit towards mainline Protestantism. On the other hand, he's had a personally transforming experience.
\t
He talks about how his faith changed his life and how he'd like faith to change other people's lives, and that puts him a little bit more in the evangelical camp. President Bush hasn't actually told us where he stands -- perhaps because he isn't entirely sure himself, because he draws from a variety of different perspectives, but also because it may not be the best thing to do politically to identify with one or another religious tradition when, in fact, he can identify with several. In his political activity, he often strides across different religious boundaries and can, therefore, appeal to people from different religious backgrounds.
[Frontline:]Evangelicals claim him as one of their own. They feel they have an ally in the White House.
There's no question that the evangelical community has an ally in President Bush on a number of different issues, and in terms of basic values. There is a great deal of commonality between President Bush and evangelicals. Technically speaking, though, President Bush is a mainline Protestant, from the more conservative or traditional, or, if you will, evangelical wing of mainline Protestantism, but not really part of the core of the evangelical community, as scholars tend to understand it.
So there is a sense in which evangelicals are claiming somebody who really isn't part of their religious community, but someone who shares many of their values, who certainly understands them well, and shares a number of their religious beliefs.
[Frontline:]And while he walks in both worlds, he also differs from both.
Certainly, President Bush differs from his own denomination, from the United Methodist Church, in that he doesn't adopt a lot of its official positions. For instance, he is pro-life on abortion, whereas United Methodists tend to be pro-choice. He disagrees with many Methodists on social welfare issues, and Methodists have a long tradition of supporting the welfare state. President Bush [is] very critical of the welfare state. On foreign policy, President Bush has a somewhat more aggressive foreign policy than many Methodists would agree with.
But if you compare him to the evangelical community, he doesn't completely agree with them either. For instance, when it comes to issues like how the government should relate to the gay population. President Bush is much more tolerant -- unwilling to stigmatize people. When asked about the gay community, for instance, President Bush will often say, "Well, we have to recognize that we're all sinners and we shouldn't be critical of one another, and we need to be tolerant of each other."
On a number of other issues, even on abortion, President Bush is unwilling to commit himself to, say, a constitutional amendment to abolish abortions, which evangelicals would really like to see. He has a much more moderate position on abortion. So on a variety of issues, he contradicts both the mainline Protestant position and the evangelical Protestant position. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #189,678
1/10/05 9:29:07 PM
1/10/05 9:35:18 PM
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In point of fact, you may be correct.
I have to admit that what frightens me most about the rise of the religious right is that they have a say in our body politic now - and a very powerful one. Rove's genius this time was getting the "gay marriage" initiatives on the ballots in key states. That brought the fundies out in droves and (most likely, history will tell us for sure) tipped the scales in good ol' dub's favor. Now, even if I yield on the point that I overestimated how much of a fundie dub himself is, it is still quite clear that he owes much to the fundie right. And that, all by itself and without regard to his personal views, is alarming enough. I don't have a link, but it has been widely reported that the single best indicator of whom you voted for was whether you attend church regularly. That is scary.
[Edit - just had to]
I doubt that you can point to anyone in particular in the Bush administration that advocates destroying the Earth to hasten the apocalypse. Care to try to surprise me?
Have you taken a look at any of the Bush Admin's environmental policies? </smirk>
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Edited by mmoffitt
Jan. 10, 2005, 09:35:18 PM EST
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Post #189,676
1/10/05 9:19:16 PM
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wow, excludes communists, hindoo's, muslims christians
Jews, green party and all environmentalists, black people, hispanics and native americans pretty much leaves Arnie or me as prez and that would take a constitutional change.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,679
1/10/05 9:30:14 PM
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You are killing me.
Which communist, exactly, was it who said "we have to destroy the world in order to save it?" Now don't cheat and set capitalism == the world. ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #189,684
1/10/05 9:51:04 PM
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ya sure you want to go there?
all movements are by nature messianic: me, dunno if I heard it or made it up [link|http://www.internationalism.org/wr/230_lead.htm|http://www.internati...g/wr/230_lead.htm] "In the end, it is all the same whether we are wiped out in a rain of thermonuclear bombs, or by pollution, epidemics and the massacres of small wars (where nuclear weapons might also be used). The only difference between these two forms of annihilation lies in that one is quick, while the other will be slower, and would consequently provoke still more suffering" ('Decomposition, final phase of the decadence of capitalism', in the ICC pamphlet The decadence of capitalism). followed by a close one, regards, daemon [link|http://www.brightstarsound.com/world_hero/article.html|http://www.brightsta...hero/article.html] that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,685
1/10/05 9:53:05 PM
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That's not exactly calling for it. More like lamenting.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #189,687
1/10/05 9:57:52 PM
|
you mean lamentations 1-5? :-)
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,690
1/10/05 10:04:48 PM
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BTW, thanks for the link.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #189,734
1/11/05 9:18:32 AM
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Oh Mike, Mike
You're so exposing yourself...
Original:
Du passe faisons table rase
Foules, esclaves, debout, debout
Le monde va changer de base
Nous ne sommes rien, soyons tout
Literary translation:
Never more traditions' chains shall bind us
Arise ye toilers no more in thrall
The earth shall rise on new foundations
We are but naught we shall be all.
Word-by-word translation
(someone with better French, help me out here)
Du passe faisons table rase
We make "tabula rasa" of the past
Foules, esclaves, debout, debout
Masses, slaves, arise, arise!
Le monde va changer de base
The world is changing its foundation
Nous ne sommes rien, soyons tout
We are nothing, shall be all.
Back-translation from the Russian version (and before you say that it was tainted by "real socilism" - it has not changed since early 20th century, or late 19th AFAIK.
We shall destroy the entire world of violence
To its foundations, and then
We shal build our own, our new world.
He who was nothing, shall be all.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #189,770
1/11/05 12:57:39 PM
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I've never apologized for being me ;-)
But the kind of "destruction" spoken about in your post is not the all encompassing "killing everyone on the planet" kind of destruction the fundies speak of and look forward to.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #189,830
1/11/05 5:47:52 PM
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As Ben pointed out
"fundies" are not eager to do the destruction with their own hands. While your "workers" are.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #189,856
1/11/05 7:04:23 PM
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But you assume Capitalism == the world. And it doesn't ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #189,866
1/11/05 7:45:43 PM
|
And you assume that this weary existance is "world" ;o)
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #189,873
1/11/05 9:51:14 PM
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I yield to the better argument ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #189,883
1/11/05 10:46:34 PM
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Tilt. Error 666: metaphysical change-of-scale.
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Post #189,681
1/10/05 9:46:46 PM
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Bull.
You talking apocalypse? Because there's 1000 years of peace afterwards. Any fundamentalist will tell you THAT. Gee - It seems "the world must be destroyed" isn't a fundamentalist stricture after all. Hell, if you buy 'rapture' only the fundamentalists are taken away. Surely that's what you WANT. Gee - your knowledge of fundamentalism seems to be based on prejudice. Surprise, surprise. "Anyone whose philosophical belief system leads them to conclude that the world must be destroyed to be saved is not suited for high public office" Gee - and fundamentalists are the ones that hold this belief? Funny - it seems that even though fundamentalists DON'T believe that, many, many politicians did. Remember M.A.D.? A strategy held by all superpowers for a long time? But I guess they were all fundamentalists too. Or mostly. Maybe some? Surely that supports your prejudice. "And like it or not, the above mentioned conclusion is central to fundamentalist Christianity." Like it or not, you are FULL OF IT. I've never heard ANYONE preach bringing about the battle of Armageddon. Ever. Only to be prepared for it. Tell you what - find me a percentage of fundamentalist Christians that WANT to initiate even the battle of Armageddon - how many want the Antichrist to take over? Why aren't they calling for, say the branding of all atheists and satanists with the mark of the beast (or any other strategy) in an attempt to 'force God's hand'? Don't just blab that 'they all want that' or any other bigoted statement. Find me a number. I assert that percentage is comparable with the percentage of people that believe in genocide in combination of breeding 'supermen' as a way to improve the human race. Or the number of people that believe that all 'African Americans' should be shipped off to Africa. Or any other evil philosophy. In other words, evil is independent of religion. Of course, your prejudice, your bigotry, leads you to 'classify' Christians as a group as 'dangerous'. Like Hitler did with the Jews. You are all about removing choice of leadership, though. The people have no right to choose - only you and those like minded have that right. Sorry, I consider that POV to be sick. [link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #189,683
1/10/05 9:50:40 PM
|
Just watch ONE Jack Van Emp television show. Just one.
And funny you bring the "ship 'em back to Africa" thing. Recall that the South during the Civil War quoted Jesus as a justfication for slavery.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #189,689
1/10/05 10:00:05 PM
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Give details. Quote fact.
My statements stand. I have NEVER heard a preacher preach that thier flock do evil in order to bring about Armageddon.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #189,692
1/10/05 10:18:35 PM
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It's Impe, btw. Sorry.
He's syndicated, everywhere, natch. Are you telling me that fundie Christians aren't really looking forward to this? "The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch-angel, and with the trump of God...Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together...in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-7). or this? Clearly, this exercise builds one's confidence that we are living in the very end of the age. When you have this amount of potential Biblical prophecy fulfillment, simultaneously occurring at the same time as many other Biblical prophecies, such as the restoration of Israel, you must seriously conclude that Jesus Christ is most probably at the door. [link|http://www.cuttingedge.org/ce1013.html|http://www.cuttingedge.org/ce1013.html] That was an "I feel lucky" google hit. Clearly, if these fundies aren't actively trying to bring about the "End of Times", they sure as hell are looking forward to it. And do you really want the leaders of nation-states with enough nuclear power to bring about the "End of Times" actually looking forward to it? bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #189,699
1/10/05 10:45:35 PM
|
Bah. Looking forward is NOT 'to bring it about'
I look forward to my birthday. Should I try and make the Earth spin faster?
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #189,768
1/11/05 12:54:04 PM
|
See my first 2 paragraphs of my reply to Ben. (link)
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189767|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=189767]
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #189,773
1/11/05 1:25:56 PM
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Rationalize all you want.
Inimical to democracy and freedom as you (and your anti-Christian agenda) are, I won't recommend that you are not allowed to run for office, or that you be relegated to 2nd class citizen. I am sure that you would be defeated by an OVERWHELMING majority.
What's that LRPD? Oh yeah: "you are so wrong philosophers weep at the sound of your voice".
Ciao.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #189,686
1/10/05 9:56:06 PM
|
uh, sorry to burst your bubble
I have sat in on pentacostal preachers detailing end days morality that was hard core enough to jerk off to, couldnt wait for armageddon to start so they could get to the killing of the damned. I know this is anecdotal so just compare the sales of the "after the rapture" series of books here in america to the jihadi kill all the jews and american cd's overseas and you will probably find a tie.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
|
Post #189,691
1/10/05 10:08:01 PM
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Never heard one.
What percentage of Christans believe such bullshit, do you think?
Even fundamentalist? I know a few - was engaged to one for a time - and I simply do not buy that even a large minority want to 'force God's hand'.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #189,693
1/10/05 10:20:05 PM
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Enough to elect Dubya. And that is too damned many.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #189,700
1/10/05 10:47:25 PM
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So he was elected to 'destroy the world'? Pfah.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #189,732
1/11/05 9:04:23 AM
|
If he was, he's succeeding.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #189,697
1/10/05 10:38:01 PM
|
demographics
not a matter of forcing g_od's hand but hard belief that we are "here" and adherence to doctrine. Every generation believes this the end times since joshua ben david was a large example of his generation. The believers think the technology of each generation is enough to set it off. Although we have the ability to wipe mankind out of the earth many times over I beleive cockroaches rats and humans will surivive in enough pockets and evolve "with intelligent design" to go to the next level whatever that is. If you believe in evolution we went from tree swingers to upright walkers with no tools except what we could make. I think like evolutionists we are built to survive, and maybe mod 2 to mod 3,264(like ash believes " will survive and persevere. [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal] The size of Pentecostalism in the U.S. is estimated to be more than 20 million and also including approx 918,000 (4%) of the Hispanic-American population, counting all unaffiliated congregations, although exact numbers are hard to come by, in part because some tenets of Pentecostalism are held by members of non-Pentecostal denominations in what has been called the charismatic movement.
remember John Ashcroft is from this schism that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,701
1/10/05 10:50:05 PM
|
OK - that's 1 number.
4% of Hispanics believe these are the 'end times'. How many of THOSE want to bring them about?
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #190,097
1/13/05 4:18:59 PM
|
Here's another number.
[link|http://www.rickross.com/reference/millennium/millennium86.html|Apocalypse now] According to a Time/CNN poll conducted in July 2002, 17 per cent of Americans believe 'that the end of the world will happen in their lifetime' and 59 per cent that 'the prophecies of the Book of Revelation will come true.' If you drive into the American heartland and twiddle the dial, those figures will begin to make sense. The preachers, who share local radio time with country-music strummers, all thump out the message: Be Rapture Ready and, if you are left behind, be sure to be on God's side in the great battle to come. [link|http://www.rickross.com/groups/millennium.html|Some reading material]. [link|http://www.raptureready.com/|Are you ready]? [link|http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html|Check the Rapture Index]. Alex
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #190,100
1/13/05 4:52:44 PM
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And how many are urged to bring about the conditions
of Armageddon? (an event that is not 'the end', something any fundie could tell you)
How many believe they should do evil and knowingly put thae antichrist in charge to bring it about?
How many?
How does this contrast with the numbers that have believed that at every millenium, indee, every time, throughout history? How many, historically, have tried to bring about the conditions of prophesy themselves?
I guess that geologists and vulcanologists cause earthquakes and volcanoes, too.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #190,107
1/13/05 5:33:44 PM
|
At least this one:
[link|http://baltimorechronicle.com/011305PaulLevy.shtml|George Bush].
Alex
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #190,129
1/13/05 9:31:34 PM
|
Oh dear...will lithium help?
j.f.c.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #190,142
1/14/05 4:05:23 AM
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(Seems to be only enough for the Red States, currently)
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Post #190,141
1/14/05 4:04:01 AM
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I predicted something once. After I saw Bigfoot.
Oh ye of little faith..
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Post #190,148
1/14/05 8:24:44 AM
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Is it Evil to allow destruction when you can prevent it?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
|
Post #190,527
1/17/05 10:34:39 PM
|
if its time to push the button it gets pushed, or not
fuck all we can do about it so why worry? If there is an world blaster I hope I will be at ground zero to avoid the turmoil of trying to survive.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,731
1/11/05 8:43:35 AM
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Now there's a wrong-headed philosophy
Here's my position in a nutshell. Anyone whose philosophical belief system leads them to conclude that the world must be destroyed to be saved is not suited for high public office. Now if you'd said, ..leads them to conclude that we must destroy the world to save it... then I'd be inclined to agree. And if they're inclined to act on that thought, then I'd prefer them to wind up in jail or an insane asylum. (Both have happened in the past.) But I'd also see the point as moot since there is no group out there who believes that who is likely to get democratically elected. And I'm not willing to throw away democracy worrying about it. Back to your position, there is a significant difference between what you said and what I said. The difference is who acts. Someone who believes that God will destroy the world but who has no inclination to do it themselves is fairly safe in my books. I don't believe that there is a God to do that destroying, and I'm willing to let them wait expectantly as long as they desire. As long as that person or persons are not inclined to act on God's behalf, I don't feel particularly threatened by that belief. Furthermore, your analysis of why this belief system should be banned applies to the version that I described, not the one that you did. Which means that, unless you have other reasons for your position, you should adopt my more nuanced version (that doesn't suggest that we immediately try to dismantle democracy). Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #189,767
1/11/05 12:51:49 PM
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No it isn't.
Now if you'd said, ..leads them to conclude that we must destroy the world to save it... then I'd be inclined to agree. And if they're inclined to act on that thought, then I'd prefer them to wind up in jail or an insane asylum.
They (the fundies) are not in charge. Remember? This is God's plan. And if to a True Believer it is God's plan to destroy the world, what exactly do you suspect said True Believer to do to slow or stop the destruction?
Right. Nothing.
The real difference between us is that you only condemn active destruction, while I additionally condemn passively (and gleefully) allowing the destruction to occur.
And having my position is far from wrong-headed. By your reasoning a parent who withholds medical treatment for their child out of some idiotic religious conviction is guilty of nothing. The parent did not "actively" cause the disease/trauma/whatever. In this case, your position cries out to defend the parent even more - they didn't even want their child to be ill, while the aforementioned Christian is actually looking forward to the end of the world. Strikes me that our hypothetical parent is a more sympathetic character.
And you call my position "wrong-headed"? Feh.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #189,782
1/11/05 2:51:11 PM
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And you remain wrong
My reasoning does not lead where you claim that it does. My reasoning leads to saying that people who believe that their kids should not get medical care should be allowed to participate in the political system. I disagree with them. If they violate the law, then I advocate charging them. But if I'm willing to accept that people whose opinions I don't like shouldn't be allowed to participate, then why should I expect that I should be allowed to participate? (More people are likely to abhor my beliefs than theirs...)
Again, be very careful before you advocate throwing out democracy. No matter how much you may dislike the current state, the odds are that whomever leads a change like that will be worse. A lot worse.
It would be cliche to point to past examples like Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin. Cliche but true. For a current example, well if there was support for discarding democracy in this country, guess who would be likely to wind up as dictator? You got it, the commander in chief of the military, who has substantial support both within our military and within the states from whose ranks the military is overwhelmingly drawn.
Think about that before suggesting anything idiotic. For the record, were I to be forced to choose at the moment between giving power to you or George Bush, I'd choose Bush. As much as I hate him and he scares me, he hasn't said or advocated anything (yet) that I see as causing irreparable harm to the principle of American democracy. You, on the other hand, have.
And, as tradition will have it, this is all that I have to say you on this topic. Unless you come up with something stunningly novel, I'm not going to bother responding to you any more on this topic because you and everyone present know what I would say well enough that I don't need to bother saying it.
Regards,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #189,785
1/11/05 2:54:30 PM
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OT: Branch this, please.
The right-shift is killing me.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #189,805
1/11/05 4:10:52 PM
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The arrogance of youth.
A question != advocacy.
Emphasis added to help the reader.
Democracy might be globally too dangerous.
... a strict dictatorship of the people might be a better option. Provided that dictatorship is not based upon some medieval superstitious religion of fear.
And now for something completely different, Ben's misrepresentation of what I said:
Again, be very careful before you advocate throwing out democracy.
For the record, were I to be forced to choose at the moment between giving power to you or George Bush, I'd choose Bush. As much as I hate him and he scares me, he hasn't said or advocated anything (yet) that I see as causing irreparable harm to the principle of American democracy. You, on the other hand, have.
Ah yes, I've irreparably harmed American democracy by ..... expressing an idea. An idea so heinous that I dare not repeat it more than once: "People who look forward to the destruction of life on the planet should not be in power."
Unadulterated blasphemy, that's what it is.
Now, I'm done.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #189,900
1/12/05 4:19:52 AM
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Re: Now there's a wrong-headed ... lateral arabesque?
Maybe we need not decide what IS is.
Look, suppose you needed a Doctor to perform a bleeding edge new sort of operation, one so new that there are no nice survival stats on outcomes; there's dissension from the old guard, etc.
You find one who says he can help.
You investigate a little; find that he's a big fan of Mary Shelley, has collected very many body parts in his lab (well preserved by latest tricks). He really Wants the job.
Of course, if his heart isn't much in Your aims; if it doesn't work out too well for you -- there's this other project, the only one he's Really Interested in.
Would you want this Doctor in charge of your life (expectancy)?
Of course too, all realize that there is absolutely no way to expect some 'law' change to prevent a religio-loony and lots of other kinds - from say, achieving let's even say: control over the Bagman's codes. Such as we are, and just now, before any nukes actually fly. (Most weren't born when the last ones flew/dropped)
So this discussion was moot before phase II.
My 3 Kopeks
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Post #189,929
1/12/05 12:29:42 PM
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The point you may have missed
I wouldn't want that doctor, and I'm not voting for Bush either.
But look at your closing thought: Of course too, all realize that there is absolutely no way to expect some 'law' change to prevent a religio-loony and lots of other kinds - from say, achieving let's even say: control over the Bagman's codes.
I only wish that was true. This argument is over the fact that Mike apparently does seem to think that it is reasonable and desirable to make a law change to prevent religio-loonies from having access to political power. And doesn't understand why many of us (myself included) see this as advocating something that would cause irreparable harm to the principle of American democracy.
I'd also like to wave a magic wand and have the problem go away. But banning fundamentalist Christians from political office isn't the way to do it.
What would happen if there was such a ban? Well quite simply, the principle of having a democracy that everyone is free to participate in would be gone. The principle that the government will not discriminate on the basis of faith would be gone. And the banned religious people would just lie about their beliefs and continue to participate anyways unless we went to more draconian measures (which are an even more obvious violation of the ideals that we'd like to believe that we have).
I think you recognize this, after all you've said that there's absolutely no way to expect this. Mike obviously doesn't, and when he fails to understand something this basic, there are literally no grounds for communication.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #189,937
1/12/05 1:14:00 PM
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I understand your point.
But it wasn't ever my point. I raised the question - is democracy a good idea when the majority of people who vote are bent on (or at least looking forward to) the destruction of life on the planet? Clearly, I think, from the viewpoint of everyone living outside said environment - and the minority of rational minds within that environment even, democracy is not a good idea, especially when said environment has the tools to actually end life on the planet.
The non-existent, idealized version of American Democracy you are so enamored of requires an educated, tolerant people in order to produce enlightened leadership. What passes for democracy in this country has clearly not yielded enlightened leadership. So where is the problem? I'd argue that the idealized version of American Democracy you speak of will never come to exist because the voting majority of the American People will never be educated or tolerant. Further, to my way of thinking, the rise of fundamentalist Christianity and its influence over our governance guarantees that the voting majority here will forever remain uneducated, egotistical, intolerant and yes, dangerous.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #189,959
1/12/05 4:59:44 PM
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Mike, listen to yourself.
I once conceded an argument when I relized I was about to defend the internment of Japanese Americans during WW-2. I think you're way past the point where it's better to re-read your posts and re-consider your premises.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #189,980
1/12/05 9:03:04 PM
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Sorry.
I re-read everything I wrote and stand by it. I'm also not going to post here anymore in deference to right-shift issues, which I, myself, am beginning to have trouble with. Ashton's post in the other forum is a nice summary (and I think perhaps less inflamatory) of what I intended to posit. ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #189,970
1/12/05 6:45:12 PM
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Moving on ---> to metaphysics and The non-Spotless Mind (new thread)
Created as new thread #189969 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189969|Moving on ---> to metaphysics and The non-Spotless Mind]
The common condition of things that did not happen is that you cannot disprove them.
Anon.
Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both.
- James Madison
As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more
and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and
glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire
at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
H.L. Mencken
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