There are good and evil non-believers too. ;-)

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Post #189,490

by Another Scott

1/9/05 2:07:06 PM

There are good and evil non-believers too. ;-)

I don't want to go too much more into my beliefs than I've already said (above and elsewhere).

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #189,493

by broomberg

1/9/05 2:16:49 PM

Oh, I agree

But, the difference is the true believers believe the non-believers are going to hell. That they are evil by definition of not believing. So a believer essentially has 2 choices. Convert the non-bliever to be a believer, which in turn "saves" them from going to hell. Or kill them, since you can't allow evil to continue to live and then inflict it's evil on to everything else.

Post #189,498

by Arkadiy

1/9/05 3:20:52 PM

Wrong

Dunno about Christianity, but in Judais, "evil" is something that must be left alone. If you can't make good out of it, don't touch it.

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,570

by ben_tilly

1/10/05 10:52:32 AM

It depends...

on the belief system. In yours it is wrong, ditto for many Christians. But history shows that many Christians think (or at least can be brought to act as if they think) as broomberg suggests.

How do you think that feels for non-believers like me?

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #189,513

by imric

1/9/05 6:03:19 PM

Are you defining "true believers"

as those that believe that all nonbelievers go to hell?

because I truly believe.

I don't believe THAT.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,517

by broomberg

1/9/05 6:43:17 PM

If the dogma includes hell

And you don't believe in it, then you are not a true believer.

Post #189,520

by imric

1/9/05 8:06:45 PM

*sigh* "The Dogma"?

So - The Witnesses aren't true believers, then?

That will come as a shock to everybody they annoy as they go from door to door.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,530

by broomberg

1/9/05 9:34:58 PM

I dunno

I didn't say YOUR religion believed in hell. I merely said if "the dogma" of the religion which you claim to be a believer included hell, and you don't believe in hell, then you are not a true believer.

Post #189,532

by imric

1/9/05 9:48:00 PM

"the difference is the true believers believe

the non-believers are going to hell."

My point here is that even among fundamentalist groups, not accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour does not automatically consign you to Hell. Implying that not believing in eternal torment at the hands of a merciful God means that you aren't a true believer is unfair. It's more than unfair; it's insulting to those Christians that DON'T believe that a merciful God torments human souls forever.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,537

by daemon

1/9/05 10:01:59 PM

link

[link|http://www.religioustolerance.org/heav_hel3.htm|http://www.religious...org/heav_hel3.htm]
regards,
daemon

that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]

Post #189,554

by Ashton

1/10/05 4:11:34 AM

{chortle}

Pick from the smorg\ufffdsbord - *anyone* can call self a 'Christian', claim Certainty and possess The One Truth [Which YOU Don't]

cha.cha.cha.

I hear ... screaming neurons, afraid they can't shut off the bafflegab machine in time!

Post #190,094

by a6l6e6x

1/13/05 3:37:27 PM

Heck, even CRC calls himself Christian! :)

Alex

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

Post #189,542

by Arkadiy

1/9/05 10:32:58 PM

Merely existense og hell

does not gurantee that every non-believer goes there. The Devil is in the details :)

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,543

by Another Scott

1/9/05 10:36:44 PM

Ha! :-)

Post #189,899

by Ashton

1/12/05 3:46:14 AM

Love. It.

A masterfully terse piece of logic.

Except.. I've never met any two 'Christians' who have excerpted the exact same assortment of (personally) 'acceptable' tenets amidst all the contradictory, variously translated/transliterated/edited mass of the Testaments I & II.

Perpetual-Out: "Well, I don't buy That interpretation, because in __ C __ V __ there's ..."
Bulletproof.

(Why, Leviticus alone can empty a whole bottle of White-out\ufffd, without even cracking the cover on the sci-fi parts in that currently Popular section, now a Novelist's $mine)

Nice try, though :-)

"Kind of a Shame" - article - (dmcarls) - (163) - Jan. 4, 2005, 04:02:08 PM EST

Also linked there - - (Ashton) - (162) - Jan. 5, 2005, 03:47:52 AM EST

Right... - (bepatient) - (157) - Jan. 5, 2005, 10:40:02 AM EST

Ha! - (imric) - (156) - Jan. 5, 2005, 11:35:51 AM EST

Wrong. - (bepatient) - (155) - Jan. 5, 2005, 11:42:29 AM EST

Keep telling yourself that - (GBert) - (2) - Jan. 5, 2005, 12:22:59 PM EST

What evidence? - (bepatient) - (1) - Jan. 5, 2005, 12:42:19 PM EST

I have no evidence myself - (GBert) - Jan. 5, 2005, 02:14:11 PM EST

Oh. So Kerry bullied Bush. Bwahahaha! - (imric) - (151) - Jan. 5, 2005, 12:45:27 PM EST

Interesting. - (bepatient) - (150) - Jan. 5, 2005, 12:57:45 PM EST

Listen to YOU. - (imric) - (147) - Jan. 5, 2005, 01:53:59 PM EST

I don't think you understand. - (bepatient) - (146) - Jan. 5, 2005, 05:21:45 PM EST

I do - (SpiceWare) - (1) - Jan. 5, 2005, 05:26:14 PM EST

Not wrong. - (bepatient) - Jan. 5, 2005, 05:30:22 PM EST

And I know you don't. - (imric) - (143) - Jan. 5, 2005, 06:04:13 PM EST

The pity is that there will be. -NT - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 5, 2005, 08:17:36 PM EST

Well, you're meeting wrong people. - (Arkadiy) - (141) - Jan. 6, 2005, 10:38:47 AM EST

With her vote, she hates the Constitution more. :-( -NT - (mmoffitt) - (5) - Jan. 6, 2005, 11:35:27 AM EST

Thanks for continuing to make my point. -NT - (bepatient) - (4) - Jan. 6, 2005, 11:37:42 AM EST

Q 4 U. - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 6, 2005, 11:40:16 AM EST

yep... - (Simon_Jester) - (2) - Jan. 6, 2005, 02:32:16 PM EST

Well they could have... - (bepatient) - (1) - Jan. 6, 2005, 08:27:01 PM EST

I thought.... - (Simon_Jester) - Jan. 7, 2005, 09:23:47 AM EST

Mmm hmm. - (imric) - (134) - Jan. 6, 2005, 01:00:56 PM EST

Answers - (Arkadiy) - (133) - Jan. 6, 2005, 01:31:15 PM EST

Fair enough. - (imric) - (2) - Jan. 6, 2005, 02:02:57 PM EST

It's a free country. You're entitled to your own opinion. - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Jan. 7, 2005, 07:05:22 PM EST

ROFL. Hate? - (imric) - Jan. 8, 2005, 01:19:51 AM EST

"lesser evil"?????? - (mmoffitt) - (129) - Jan. 6, 2005, 05:05:04 PM EST

Why don't you link to that quote. - (bepatient) - (128) - Jan. 6, 2005, 08:33:30 PM EST

Why would one require a 'link' to a tenet which - (Ashton) - Jan. 7, 2005, 06:46:31 AM EST

Time crunch. Edited for those w/attention spans of Mayflies. - (mmoffitt) - (125) - Jan. 7, 2005, 09:09:21 AM EST

Ahhh...so - (bepatient) - (124) - Jan. 7, 2005, 05:04:02 PM EST

Beep? - (imric) - (3) - Jan. 7, 2005, 05:28:41 PM EST

Izzat - (bepatient) - (2) - Jan. 7, 2005, 10:12:26 PM EST

..and some love their little dog, Blondi -NT - (Ashton) - Jan. 7, 2005, 10:24:54 PM EST

PERSONALLY, I don't think it's relevent. to the job - (imric) - Jan. 8, 2005, 01:03:18 AM EST

So Herman's lying. Wait, lemme guess.... - (mmoffitt) - (119) - Jan. 9, 2005, 11:08:18 AM EST

so we had a choice between going to hell and - (daemon) - (118) - Jan. 9, 2005, 11:19:47 AM EST

WTF? Your medication getting low again? - (mmoffitt) - (117) - Jan. 9, 2005, 11:24:25 AM EST

your implication of the tendancies of a born again christian - (daemon) - (116) - Jan. 9, 2005, 11:32:36 AM EST

I c. But, I haven't found anything that suggests Kerry ... - (mmoffitt) - (115) - Jan. 9, 2005, 11:39:39 AM EST

It's funny - (imric) - Jan. 9, 2005, 12:30:01 PM EST

I think you're making too much of that. - (Another Scott) - (113) - Jan. 9, 2005, 12:38:44 PM EST

That was Presidential Candidate Bush. - (mmoffitt) - (112) - Jan. 9, 2005, 12:46:53 PM EST

Some of the best people you'd ever meet are born again. - (Another Scott) - (39) - Jan. 9, 2005, 01:19:06 PM EST

Ahh, the critical statement - (broomberg) - (15) - Jan. 9, 2005, 01:44:57 PM EST

There are good and evil non-believers too. ;-) - (Another Scott) - (14) - Jan. 9, 2005, 02:07:06 PM EST

Oh, I agree - (broomberg) - (13) - Jan. 9, 2005, 02:16:49 PM EST

Wrong - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Jan. 9, 2005, 03:20:52 PM EST

It depends... - (ben_tilly) - Jan. 10, 2005, 10:52:32 AM EST

Are you defining "true believers" - (imric) - (10) - Jan. 9, 2005, 06:03:19 PM EST

If the dogma includes hell - (broomberg) - (9) - Jan. 9, 2005, 06:43:17 PM EST

*sigh* "The Dogma"? - (imric) - (8) - Jan. 9, 2005, 08:06:45 PM EST

I dunno - (broomberg) - (7) - Jan. 9, 2005, 09:34:58 PM EST

"the difference is the true believers believe - (imric) - (3) - Jan. 9, 2005, 09:48:00 PM EST

link - (daemon) - (2) - Jan. 9, 2005, 10:01:59 PM EST

{chortle} - (Ashton) - (1) - Jan. 10, 2005, 04:11:34 AM EST

Heck, even CRC calls himself Christian! :) -NT - (a6l6e6x) - Jan. 13, 2005, 03:37:27 PM EST

Merely existense og hell - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Jan. 9, 2005, 10:32:58 PM EST

Ha! :-) -NT - (Another Scott) - Jan. 9, 2005, 10:36:44 PM EST

Love. It. - (Ashton) - Jan. 12, 2005, 03:46:14 AM EST

Beg to differ. - (mmoffitt) - (22) - Jan. 9, 2005, 09:51:21 PM EST

The problem is your bigotry. - (imric) - (14) - Jan. 9, 2005, 10:18:20 PM EST

Pretty loose slathering of 'bigotry', - (Ashton) - (13) - Jan. 10, 2005, 03:58:40 AM EST

I call Strawman - (Arkadiy) - Jan. 10, 2005, 06:54:10 AM EST

bigotry: n - (imric) - (11) - Jan. 10, 2005, 08:38:02 AM EST

ICLRPD (new thread) - (bepatient) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:32:35 AM EST

Oh Pshaw - - (Ashton) - (9) - Jan. 10, 2005, 05:43:42 PM EST

A+B+C=mmoffit, ash. Like it or not. - (imric) - (8) - Jan. 10, 2005, 06:04:04 PM EST

Re: A+B+C=mmoffit, ash. Like it or not. - (bepatient) - (7) - Jan. 10, 2005, 06:21:19 PM EST

Pope's OK - unlikely ever to drop a nuke. The others ??? -NT - (Ashton) - (6) - Jan. 10, 2005, 07:40:52 PM EST

Pope is very happy that you aprove of him. -NT - (Arkadiy) - Jan. 10, 2005, 08:09:48 PM EST

Remember the bumper sticker? - (mmoffitt) - (4) - Jan. 10, 2005, 08:55:01 PM EST

nuke all the unborn gay whales, revisionist stickerman you -NT - (daemon) - (3) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:04:36 PM EST

I got yer sticker raght cheer. - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:07:06 PM EST

great I ordered 2, what kind of car you got again? :-) -NT - (daemon) - (1) - Jan. 11, 2005, 06:24:52 PM EST

On a car in Indiana, those will get you shot! -NT - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 11, 2005, 07:03:31 PM EST

See 62232 and 65768. - (Another Scott) - (6) - Jan. 9, 2005, 11:03:12 PM EST

Example - (broomberg) - (1) - Jan. 9, 2005, 10:58:43 PM EST

:-) -NT - (Another Scott) - Jan. 9, 2005, 11:00:15 PM EST

There was a difference in 1975. - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Jan. 10, 2005, 11:12:04 AM EST

I am not a born again - (daemon) - (1) - Jan. 10, 2005, 06:19:09 PM EST

Re: I am not a born again - (bepatient) - Jan. 10, 2005, 06:23:08 PM EST

Unclear on the baggage mix. - (Ashton) - Jan. 12, 2005, 05:09:19 AM EST

Right. - (bepatient) - (70) - Jan. 9, 2005, 03:27:24 PM EST

1600 of our militia know he is dangerous. - (mmoffitt) - (69) - Jan. 9, 2005, 09:46:33 PM EST

Nice subject change - (bepatient) - (68) - Jan. 9, 2005, 10:03:56 PM EST

<sigh> - (mmoffitt) - (67) - Jan. 10, 2005, 11:19:24 AM EST

Thanks for clearing that up. -NT - (bepatient) - Jan. 10, 2005, 11:35:21 AM EST

So those that do not believe as you do should be banned - (imric) - (59) - Jan. 10, 2005, 11:50:07 AM EST

Not at all. - (mmoffitt) - (58) - Jan. 10, 2005, 12:05:28 PM EST

Bah. Ideology Police? Thought Police? - (imric) - (57) - Jan. 10, 2005, 12:34:05 PM EST

Almost. - (mmoffitt) - (51) - Jan. 10, 2005, 01:28:11 PM EST

But only >certain< people. - (bepatient) - Jan. 10, 2005, 02:42:00 PM EST

Oh. Instead your dictatorship would be based upon - (imric) - (49) - Jan. 10, 2005, 02:57:36 PM EST

Reduced to its simplest form. - (mmoffitt) - (48) - Jan. 10, 2005, 08:47:00 PM EST

Maybe not. - (Another Scott) - (1) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:13:38 PM EST

In point of fact, you may be correct. - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:35:18 PM EST

wow, excludes communists, hindoo's, muslims christians - (daemon) - (12) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:19:16 PM EST

You are killing me. - (mmoffitt) - (11) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:30:14 PM EST

ya sure you want to go there? - (daemon) - (3) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:51:04 PM EST

That's not exactly calling for it. More like lamenting. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:53:05 PM EST

you mean lamentations 1-5? :-) -NT - (daemon) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:57:52 PM EST

BTW, thanks for the link. -NT - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 10, 2005, 10:04:48 PM EST

Oh Mike, Mike - (Arkadiy) - (6) - Jan. 11, 2005, 09:18:32 AM EST

I've never apologized for being me ;-) - (mmoffitt) - (5) - Jan. 11, 2005, 12:57:39 PM EST

As Ben pointed out - (Arkadiy) - (4) - Jan. 11, 2005, 05:47:52 PM EST

But you assume Capitalism == the world. And it doesn't ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - (3) - Jan. 11, 2005, 07:04:23 PM EST

And you assume that this weary existance is "world" ;o) -NT - (Arkadiy) - (2) - Jan. 11, 2005, 07:45:43 PM EST

I yield to the better argument ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 11, 2005, 09:51:14 PM EST

Tilt. Error 666: metaphysical change-of-scale. -NT - (Ashton) - Jan. 11, 2005, 10:46:34 PM EST

Bull. - (imric) - (21) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:46:46 PM EST

Just watch ONE Jack Van Emp television show. Just one. - (mmoffitt) - (5) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:50:40 PM EST

Give details. Quote fact. - (imric) - (4) - Jan. 10, 2005, 10:00:05 PM EST

It's Impe, btw. Sorry. - (mmoffitt) - (3) - Jan. 10, 2005, 10:18:35 PM EST

Bah. Looking forward is NOT 'to bring it about' - (imric) - (2) - Jan. 10, 2005, 10:45:35 PM EST

See my first 2 paragraphs of my reply to Ben. (link) - (mmoffitt) - (1) - Jan. 11, 2005, 12:54:04 PM EST

Rationalize all you want. - (imric) - Jan. 11, 2005, 01:25:56 PM EST

uh, sorry to burst your bubble - (daemon) - (14) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:56:06 PM EST

Never heard one. - (imric) - (13) - Jan. 10, 2005, 10:08:01 PM EST

Enough to elect Dubya. And that is too damned many. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Jan. 10, 2005, 10:20:05 PM EST

So he was elected to 'destroy the world'? Pfah. -NT - (imric) - (1) - Jan. 10, 2005, 10:47:25 PM EST

If he was, he's succeeding. -NT - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 11, 2005, 09:04:23 AM EST

demographics - (daemon) - (9) - Jan. 10, 2005, 10:38:01 PM EST

OK - that's 1 number. - (imric) - (8) - Jan. 10, 2005, 10:50:05 PM EST

Here's another number. - (a6l6e6x) - (7) - Jan. 13, 2005, 04:18:59 PM EST

And how many are urged to bring about the conditions - (imric) - (6) - Jan. 13, 2005, 04:52:44 PM EST

At least this one: - (a6l6e6x) - (2) - Jan. 13, 2005, 05:33:44 PM EST

Oh dear...will lithium help? - (bepatient) - (1) - Jan. 13, 2005, 09:31:34 PM EST

(Seems to be only enough for the Red States, currently) -NT - (Ashton) - Jan. 14, 2005, 04:05:23 AM EST

I predicted something once. After I saw Bigfoot. - (Ashton) - Jan. 14, 2005, 04:04:01 AM EST

Is it Evil to allow destruction when you can prevent it? -NT - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 14, 2005, 08:24:44 AM EST

if its time to push the button it gets pushed, or not - (daemon) - Jan. 17, 2005, 10:34:39 PM EST

Now there's a wrong-headed philosophy - (ben_tilly) - (10) - Jan. 11, 2005, 08:43:35 AM EST

No it isn't. - (mmoffitt) - (3) - Jan. 11, 2005, 12:51:49 PM EST

And you remain wrong - (ben_tilly) - (2) - Jan. 11, 2005, 02:51:11 PM EST

OT: Branch this, please. - (pwhysall) - Jan. 11, 2005, 02:54:30 PM EST

The arrogance of youth. - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 11, 2005, 04:10:52 PM EST

Re: Now there's a wrong-headed ... lateral arabesque? - (Ashton) - (5) - Jan. 12, 2005, 04:19:52 AM EST

The point you may have missed - (ben_tilly) - (4) - Jan. 12, 2005, 12:29:42 PM EST

I understand your point. - (mmoffitt) - (3) - Jan. 12, 2005, 01:14:00 PM EST

Mike, listen to yourself. - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Jan. 12, 2005, 04:59:44 PM EST

Sorry. - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 12, 2005, 09:03:04 PM EST

Moving on ---> to metaphysics and The non-Spotless Mind (new thread) - (Ashton) - Jan. 12, 2005, 06:45:12 PM EST

he is a neoconn, just a little left of them thats all :-) -NT - (daemon) - (4) - Jan. 10, 2005, 06:22:20 PM EST

It's a ring thing - (Arkadiy) - Jan. 10, 2005, 07:11:37 PM EST

I am not a Bolshevik! - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Jan. 10, 2005, 08:51:42 PM EST

bolshevits maybe? - (daemon) - (1) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:07:13 PM EST

Sign me up ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 10, 2005, 09:08:47 PM EST

Banned how? - (ben_tilly) - (5) - Jan. 10, 2005, 12:12:57 PM EST

Executed as illegal combatants, perhaps? </sarcasm> - (mmoffitt) - (2) - Jan. 10, 2005, 12:16:08 PM EST

Nope, all we need is Das Kapital - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Jan. 10, 2005, 01:27:19 PM EST

Nope. What is to be done? ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 10, 2005, 01:29:18 PM EST

Banned in mmofitt's dreams - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Jan. 10, 2005, 01:28:13 PM EST

Indeed. More is the pity. :-( -NT - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 10, 2005, 01:30:20 PM EST

Just to clarify. - (Another Scott) - Jan. 9, 2005, 08:11:57 PM EST

No link from me but - (lincoln) - Jan. 7, 2005, 04:46:17 PM EST

Applause. - (mmoffitt) - (1) - Jan. 5, 2005, 08:14:02 PM EST

If we ever meet at Beep's - (daemon) - Jan. 5, 2005, 08:19:39 PM EST

Sometimes a crumb falls... - (dmcarls) - (3) - Jan. 5, 2005, 12:27:27 PM EST

100% predictable.. a mere bagatelle - (Ashton) - (2) - Jan. 6, 2005, 03:23:44 AM EST

So true... - (bepatient) - (1) - Jan. 6, 2005, 07:13:14 AM EST

Wow! a blizzard of sententious sonnets - (Ashton) - Jan. 6, 2005, 10:37:13 PM EST

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