Oh. So Kerry bullied Bush. Bwahahaha!

1/5/05 12:57:45 PM

Interesting.

The tone of these opinion pieces is simply telling anyone who is even remotely in support of Bush or any policy that they are too stupid to live...let alone vote.

Moore goes on film and on concert tour handing out clean underwear etc.. etc...all the time telling those that would even consider thinking about Bush they they are too stupid to live, let alone vote.

Hell, even your post is essentially the same. Anyone that disagrees with you is too stupid to live, let alone vote. And because of this the US is doomed to the fate of Somalia.

And then they are expect to >listen< to what you have to say?

Do you really think that the "Jane you ignorant slut" style of dicourse is going to accomplish anything?

I am NOT defending Rove's attacks either. Politics has dropped to cesspool status all around. But letting loose the loonies in Hollywood is simply going to make the right circle wagons.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,128

by imric

1/5/05 1:53:59 PM

Listen to YOU.

Do you really think that the "Jane you ignorant slut" style of dicourse is going to accomplish anything?

Why not? It worked for Bush both times - trying to reason with people OBVIOUSLY does not work.

And then they are expect to >listen< to what you have to say?

You don't get it - discourse, reason, listening, replying - NONE OF THESE THINGS HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE WAY PEOPLE VOTED.

Get it?

Discourse, rationality, logic, fact - NONE OF THESE THINGS WERE RELEVENT TO THIS ELECTION.

Get it?

Let me say it again.

The neoconned don't listen to other viewpoints any more than Bush himself does (and hell, Bush is PROUD of not listening - it keeps his vision clear).

Perhaps THAT is the lesson that the Dems should learn.

That and the "Big Lie" of Goebbels.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,142

1/5/05 5:21:45 PM

I don't think you understand.

The hard-core base that you call the "neo-conned" are not 51% of the voting public but 51% voted republican.

All you needed was 2%.

Even without the confusion of electoral college.

2% would have swung Ohio.

I'm telling you that the level of discourse and its public availability (Rove wasn't making movies, putting Rush next to Bush's dad at the election, etc...) did nothing except lose that necessary 2%. Calling out Cheney's daughter as a lesbian (I know, she is...but the way it was brought into the discussion was OBVIOUS as to tactic) etc... etc... all worked against them.

I HAVE A PLAN...every 5 seconds...I HAVE A PLAN...but he NEVER TOLD YOU WHAT IT WAS...(its on our website, he says...that'll win the tractor mechanic in Zanesville, no doubt)

his supporters were telling the American Public that the economy was horrible...yet the data showed the lowest unemployment in years, highest growth in years and lowest interest rates in years...but its the worst economy in years (sorry..I was alive and remember the 70s...anyone else that is in the same boat didn't buy that)

all during this, the hardcore left was telling everyone who didn't see it their way that they were STUPID, BIGOTED, etc. (Never mind that the reality is that Bush's cabinet is the most diverse cabinet ever assembled. )

And now...because the American people are SO STUPID...its POINTLESS to actually discuss issues..instead we'll just continue to tell them how STUPID they are.

Yep.

Go ahead.

How to make friends and influence people in 1 easy lesson.

or...

How to continue to give talk fodder to Hannity and Rush.

either way its a loss.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,147

by SpiceWare

1/5/05 5:26:14 PM

I do

Of course, I live in Texas, so I'm wrong to begin with.

Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #189,150

1/5/05 5:30:22 PM

Not wrong.

Stupid maybe, bigoted definitely....but maybe not wrong ;-)

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,159

by imric

1/5/05 6:04:13 PM

And I know you don't.

The hard-core base that you call the "neo-conned" are not 51% of the voting public but 51% voted republican.

No. Repeat after me: I did not meet one - not one - of the 'Reds' that could be swayed at any point during the campaign. NOT ONE. I was told that 400000 pounds of nerve gas and missiles were found in Iraq, that it was a proven fact that OBL and SH were working together against the states. If I said anything that questioned the Divine Guidance of Our Glorious Leader, I got the equivalent of putting fingers in thier ears and chanting 'neener neener neener, I'm not listening!'. No argument, no statement, NOTHING was going to sway them. IT WAS NOT A RATIONAL THING. AT ALL. PERIOD. There was no way to 'sway' 2%. The ONLY thing that could be done was to get out as many people against Bush as possible. There were NEVER going to be any 'neoconverts'.

Repeat: NEVER-NEVER-NEVER.

It was a good plan to agitate the Dems; to shake them out of complacency and out to vote.

Your insistence that there was a fight for the hearts and minds of American voters is utterly wrong - the US was already polarized. The 'fight' was to see who could get the most to the polls. The Dems were NEVER talking to the neocons; they were talking to the Dems.

his supporters were telling the American Public that the economy was horrible...yet the data showed the lowest unemployment in years

PLEASE don't spew that crap. Yeah - employment at 1/5 the salary as previous, with the same level of expenses. And - growth? Of WHAT? The the wealth of the bulk of the market that buys things? Or the wealth of a small minority? PLEASE don't spew out trickle-down BULLSHIT. It doesn't work; it never worked. The only time it appears to work is when large quantites of cash are flushed into the system - like when Reagan opened credit purse-strings (something we are STILL paying for), or Bush's plan - to flush SS into the stock market. The problem is, that's like cocaine for the economy; the crash is BAD.

Remember, I too lived through the 70s. My Dad lost his job then - and he could actually take care of a family of 4 w/o my Mom having to work by taking a job as a painter/grunt carpenter for a local contracter. Could that happen now? NO WAY IN HELL.

How to continue to give talk fodder to Hannity and Rush.

Yeah, like they need fodder.

The only way to win the neoconned back is to appeal to their fear and greed after everything has fallen apart. Dangle jobs in front of the jobless, food in front of the starving, medicine in front of the sick, homes in front of the homeless.

What a pity that for that to work, there must be larger numbers of unemployed, starving, sick and homeless people.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,170

1/5/05 8:17:36 PM

The pity is that there will be.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,207

1/6/05 10:38:47 AM

Well, you're meeting wrong people.

I met at least three people who voted for Bush who could have been swayed. One of them is your typical "religious right-wing nut" - even he had doubts about Bush. My mother ended up voting for Bush, for Dear's sake! She looked at Kerry and just could not bring herself to vote for the man. And she hates Bush's guts.

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,211

1/6/05 11:35:27 AM

With her vote, she hates the Constitution more. :-(

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,212

1/6/05 11:37:42 AM

Thanks for continuing to make my point.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,213

1/6/05 11:40:16 AM

Q 4 U.

Agree with the following?
Benedict Arnold was just misunderstood, and unfairly painted as a traitor by the librul elite in charge of history book printing.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,226

by Simon_Jester

1/6/05 2:32:16 PM

yep...

it's not like they could vote for a Libertarian or anything.

Post #189,261

1/6/05 8:26:45 PM

1/6/05 8:27:01 PM

Well they could have...

..if they made the ballot in their state...like they did in NJ.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Edited by bepatient Jan. 6, 2005, 08:27:01 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #189,294

by Simon_Jester

1/7/05 9:23:47 AM

I thought....

that ballots had a space for a write-in candidate.

Post #189,221

by imric

1/6/05 1:00:07 PM

1/6/05 1:00:56 PM

Mmm hmm.

And tell me - he 'had his doubts' but he voted Bush anyway. Any reason at all? Was it a distaste for intellect? What discourse could have swayed him? Anything at all? Or was it just a feeling he had?
And your mother - she looked at Kerry and supported (voted for) what she 'hated'? Sorry, but that makes little sense to me.
Who was the third?

Sorry - I still don't buy it. Are you sure that they weren't just trying to seem 'Fair and Balanced'?

As for the people I meet - Down here in GA the natives (excepting college students) are pro-Bush. Rabidly so. Even implying that you aren't will gain sneers at best (I would never admit it outside Atlanta for fear of getting the shit stomped out of me). Well, that's not true; I met a bartenter down here that was anti-Bush - when I admitted that I was also anti-Bush, his relief was palpable. DRL is down here too. Note too that GA is 49th out of 50 for SAT scores - and I think that the only reason they aren't '51 out of 50' is the result of excellent educators (hats off to GA teachers now that I see what they have to work with).

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Edited by imric Jan. 6, 2005, 01:00:56 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #189,222

1/6/05 1:31:15 PM

Answers

1.He had to measure Bush's record on civil liberties versus Kerry's refusal to fight abortion. He was precisely on teh fence. If I could prove to him that Kerry was a better leader, he would have gone Kerry.

2. My mother came to conclusion that Kerry is worse. It was a "lesser evil" vote. Or maybe "known evil"

3. The third was another of my co-workers. Very good guy, certainly swayable by a civilised discussion. Again, I could not convince him that Kerry is better than Bush.

In fact, I could barely convince myself. The guy was saying all the right words, and taking all the right positions, but a) he was an opportunistic weasel from young age and b) I could not see how he is going to address the actual problems he so eloquently rose.

In the end, I voted against Bush. Well, guess what, I was not the one who needed convincing.

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,224

by imric

1/6/05 2:02:57 PM

Fair enough.

I still believe that:

Voting for Bush was both a foolish and morally bankrupt act
Trying to be reasonable or 'gentle' with the neocon-artists and the neoconned is at best a waste of time and at worst makes the neocon opposition look weak
I am justified in my disgust with the neoconned
The neocons are severely damaging this nation, perhaps permanently
That the neocons would cause the (abovementioned) damage was obvious
the lack of morality, ability, and honesty of the neocons was also obvious

Playing the 'consensus builder' with EVIL is almost as damaging to the US as supporting that evil in the first place. I will NOT ignore the lessons of Nazi Germany. Bowing to those bastards because they appear 'strong' and because they know how to use religious and jingoistic propaganda is WRONG. Unless the passion against that evil is kept high, our citizens will adapt and accept that evil, and that will be a wound in our country that can NEVER be healed.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,343

1/7/05 7:05:22 PM

It's a free country. You're entitled to your own opinion.

I did notce, though, how smoothly you moved from "meocons" in 1 to "neoconned" in 2.
Hate much?

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,381

by imric

1/8/05 1:19:51 AM

ROFL. Hate?

The fools the neocons have conned?

Or the neocons that are actively engaged in the ruin of the Great Experiment?

The self-righteous that believe they must force thier own beliefs on others (for thier own good, dontchaknow)?

Or the warmongers clamoring for blood and war with no end in sight?

The greedy that would bankrupt future generations so they can save a few dollars today?

Or the leaders that despise science and don't trust informed decisions?

Be more specific.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,238

1/6/05 5:05:04 PM

"lesser evil"??????

I was no huge fan of Kerry, but I'll be damned if I can figure out how Dubya could be the "lesser evil" to anyone.

I wonder if your Mom would still think Bush the "lesser evil" if she knew that according to Dub, unless she "accepts Jesus Christ as her personal savior", she can't get into heaven?

[link|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/|http://www.pbs.org/w...line/shows/jesus/]

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,264

1/6/05 8:33:30 PM

Why don't you link to that quote.

Please.

Otherwise I will just accept that you cannot deal with a man running this country if he actually goes to church.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,281

by Ashton

1/7/05 6:46:31 AM

Why would one require a 'link' to a tenet which

*every* \ufffdfundamentalist Christian\ufffd would quote, at some point in every proselytization, verbatim ?

{Sheesh Beep} - ya think he's makin this stuff up.. izzat it? or is this just more Nineties-on-automatic,

If it doesn't fit
You mustn't convict
If it doesn't link
It's in the sink

\ufffd fundmentalist: "every word in the Bible is The. Literal. Truth."
as in, cha. cha. cha.
'literal' as in, "I never heered of a simile, metaphor or allegory".

Post #189,287

1/7/05 9:01:57 AM

1/7/05 9:09:21 AM

Time crunch. Edited for those w/attention spans of Mayflies.

If you watched the show, you'd have heard it. I didn't see a full transcript at first look. If I can get out from under today, I will happily link the quote. He said it when he was running for Governor of Texas (it plays well in Texas) but didn't repeat it during the Presidential campaign because he was warned not to.

Watch the show - oops, forgot, you're one of the believers so you won't watch anything that you don't already hold as sacred.

[link|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/etc/script.html|http://www.pbs.org/w...s/etc/script.html]

It's down aways. Here's the operative part (Emphasis Mine for the hearing impaired.):

NARRATOR: Ken Herman was a reporter for The Houston Post. He interviewed Bush on the day he announced his intention to run for governor. As they talked, the new candidate offered Herman a surprising anecdote.

KEN HERMAN: Him and his mother were having a difference of opinion about whether you have to accept Christ to go to heaven, a perfectly legitimate thing for a family to discuss. His mother's belief was, as Bush told me, sort of, "Maybe you don't. But more importantly, maybe you shouldn't worry about it, just sort of take care of yourself. And you know, we'll see what happens when the time comes."

To make the point that this family operates different than others, through their long-time contact with Billy Graham, they decided, "Let's get Billy Graham on the phone"-- you know, kind of God's right-hand man right on the planet. As it turns out, Reverend Graham said, "Just don't worry about it. Live your life the way you're supposed to. Love everybody and move on." Bush, however, said he himself held the personal belief that you have to accept Christ to get to heaven.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Edited by mmoffitt Jan. 7, 2005, 09:09:21 AM EST

Expand All History

Post #189,333

1/7/05 4:54:15 PM

1/7/05 5:04:02 PM

Ahhh...so

I see you found somewhere where he's directly quoted...not.

And in case you haven't figured it out yet, I voted Lib.

[link|http://www.state.nj.us/lps/elections/04_Municipality_pdf%27s/presidential_camden_co_2004.pdf|I apparently have 28 friends I need to make in my town.]

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Edited by bepatient Jan. 7, 2005, 05:04:02 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #189,336

by imric

1/7/05 5:28:41 PM

Beep?

He's a fundamentalist Christian.

That IS a (if not THE) fundamentalist Christian belief.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,371

1/7/05 10:12:26 PM

Izzat

what you call a Methodist nowadays?

And again...disqualified for the job because he happens to believe something that you don't.

That and that all his supporters are stupid, evil, (insert the continual litany here).

Kerry went to church too. You voted for him right?

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,373

by Ashton

1/7/05 10:24:54 PM

..and some love their little dog, Blondi

Post #189,380

by imric

1/8/05 1:03:18 AM

PERSONALLY, I don't think it's relevent. to the job

Nor that it disqualifies him. I am quite happy to let anyone believe what they will.

Or that it is that belief that makes him stupid. Or evil.

But to imply that because the quote wasn't found and linked to, it isn't something he professes to believe profoundly is wrong.

..And, BTW, Rachel is a fundamentalist. She went to a Methodist church for years. Got engaged to the preacher, too.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,456

1/9/05 11:08:18 AM

So Herman's lying. Wait, lemme guess....

It's all a part of that Librul Media Conspiracy against God-fearing Born Again Christians, right?

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,461

by daemon

1/9/05 11:19:47 AM

so we had a choice between going to hell and

going to a non catholic hell?, find another straw to float that boat.
regards,
daemon

that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]

Post #189,463

1/9/05 11:24:25 AM

WTF? Your medication getting low again?

Beep says that he can't take the word of a reporter who states Bush told him X.

I state it must be a part of the famed Librul Meedja bias that causes Beep to hold such. For, the clear implication of Beep's post is that the reporter from the Houston paper must be lying.

Where's the straw? (Your post doesn't count).

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,465

by daemon

1/9/05 11:32:36 AM

your implication of the tendancies of a born again christian

holding office. I was just reminding you that the alternative candidate prays in a religion where you and I are damned anyway so whats the difference?
regards,
daemon

Post #189,467

1/9/05 11:39:39 AM

I c. But, I haven't found anything that suggests Kerry ...

ever held that you "have to accept Jesus" to get into heaven. I'm from North Carolina, spent a lot of time in the Southern Baptist Bible Belt of Born Againers and, without exception, they held the same as Dubya - that you "ain't gonna git to heaven lessen you 'cept Jesus as yur pursonal savior." Now, without regard to whether you think there is a heaven, having some one hold high office that has the Born Againer's attitude is more dangerous. Because when that kind of person looks at a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, etc. he thinks he's superior (closer to the one True God) than a Christian like say, Thomas Merton, does. Consequently, he'll have less resistance to the notion of killing anyone who "ain't even a Christian".

Personally, I think the world would be a hell of a lot better off if only aetheists were allowed to hold any positions of power in any government.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,472

by imric

1/9/05 12:30:01 PM

It's funny

The self-righteous BAC (the ones that give Christianity a bad name) should feel better about killing Christians (they go to a better place) than those that have not repented and accepted Jesus Christ as their personal saviour.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,473

1/9/05 12:38:44 PM

I think you're making too much of that.

Bush's belief above is standard Christian doctrine. E.g. [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203;&version=31;|John 3]:

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, \ufffdRabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.\ufffd

3In reply Jesus declared, \ufffdI tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]\ufffd

4\ufffdHow can a man be born when he is old?\ufffd Nicodemus asked. \ufffdSurely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!\ufffd

5Jesus answered, \ufffdI tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, \ufffdYou[c] must be born again.\ufffd 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.\ufffd

and [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016;&version=31;|Mark 16]:

14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, \ufffdGo into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.\ufffd

19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Emphasis added in both.

Various denominations put different emphasis on the snake-handling and the like...

Also, Bush said [link|http://www.zionsherald.org/Sept2004_interview.html|this]:

\ufffdThere are many great religions in the world. God is all-powerful and all-knowing, and, you know, we\ufffdll never know until we get to heaven the ultimate answers to many of the religious questions. But the president of the United States\ufffd job is not to try to convert people to religion. The president of the United States\ufffd job is to set an example, to make sound decisions, to respect religion, and, if asked, to herald religion. But the key is not to hold out, you know, my religion is better than yours.\ufffd
\ufffdInterview with BeliefNet, Fall 2000

Kerry hasn't talked much about [link|http://www.catholic.com/library/necessity_of_baptism.asp|Catholic doctrine] on baptism:

"From that time at which our Savior said, \ufffdIf anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven\ufffd [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal" (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

I think Kerry's and Bush's positions on being saved aren't that different.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #189,476

1/9/05 12:46:53 PM

That was Presidential Candidate Bush.

If you haven't already seen it, the Frontline special is available online at the link above. You really should watch it.

Ever lived in the Southern Bible Belt? I suspect not, else you would appreciate my concerns. As far a Kerry's quote, it is disturbing, yet I cannot help but believe that he was trying to reach into Dubya's core (Jesusland) a little with that. Kerry, with his pro-choice record, clearly does not adhere to his Catholic religious dogma as much as Dubya does. And I am all too familiar with the kind of nonsense that constitutes a Born Again Christian's religious dogma. And it is a vile, very dangerous set of beliefs indeed.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,480

1/9/05 1:19:06 PM

Some of the best people you'd ever meet are born again.

I lived outside of Atlanta most of my life between ages ~4 and 13. I principally attended a Southern Baptist Sunday School and church for much of that time. I went to Vacation Bible School. I went to a Billy Graham Crusade at Atlanta Stadium. (He's was a very persuasive speaker.) I know a little bit about this stuff. ;-)

There are some far-out, kooky, and even evil born-again people. There are also some wonderful, caring, understanding and even saintly born-again people. Most people who are, or claim to be, born-again are in the middle. I think Bush is in the middle (neither saintly nor evil (though I disagree with many of his policies)).

I don't think that the typical born-again beliefs are any more dangerous than most of the dogma of the major religions. They each believe they know the way to achieve salvation/reduce suffering/serve God/etc.

I'll try to check out the Frontline show (one of my favorite TV shows), but I have trouble finding time for TV these days (on TV or PC).

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #189,484

1/9/05 1:44:57 PM

Ahh, the critical statement

I don't think that the typical born-again beliefs are any more dangerous than most of the dogma of the major religions. They each believe they know the way to achieve salvation/reduce suffering/serve God/etc.

Which means you do believe they are more danagerous than the non-believers.

Post #189,490

1/9/05 2:07:06 PM

There are good and evil non-believers too. ;-)

I don't want to go too much more into my beliefs than I've already said (above and elsewhere).

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #189,493

1/9/05 2:16:49 PM

Oh, I agree

But, the difference is the true believers believe the non-believers are going to hell. That they are evil by definition of not believing. So a believer essentially has 2 choices. Convert the non-bliever to be a believer, which in turn "saves" them from going to hell. Or kill them, since you can't allow evil to continue to live and then inflict it's evil on to everything else.

Post #189,498

1/9/05 3:20:52 PM

Wrong

Dunno about Christianity, but in Judais, "evil" is something that must be left alone. If you can't make good out of it, don't touch it.

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,570

1/10/05 10:52:32 AM

It depends...

on the belief system. In yours it is wrong, ditto for many Christians. But history shows that many Christians think (or at least can be brought to act as if they think) as broomberg suggests.

How do you think that feels for non-believers like me?

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #189,513

by imric

1/9/05 6:03:19 PM

Are you defining "true believers"

as those that believe that all nonbelievers go to hell?

because I truly believe.

I don't believe THAT.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,517

1/9/05 6:43:17 PM

If the dogma includes hell

And you don't believe in it, then you are not a true believer.

Post #189,520

by imric

1/9/05 8:06:45 PM

*sigh* "The Dogma"?

So - The Witnesses aren't true believers, then?

That will come as a shock to everybody they annoy as they go from door to door.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,530

1/9/05 9:34:58 PM

I dunno

I didn't say YOUR religion believed in hell. I merely said if "the dogma" of the religion which you claim to be a believer included hell, and you don't believe in hell, then you are not a true believer.

Post #189,532

by imric

1/9/05 9:48:00 PM

"the difference is the true believers believe

the non-believers are going to hell."

My point here is that even among fundamentalist groups, not accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour does not automatically consign you to Hell. Implying that not believing in eternal torment at the hands of a merciful God means that you aren't a true believer is unfair. It's more than unfair; it's insulting to those Christians that DON'T believe that a merciful God torments human souls forever.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,537

by daemon

1/9/05 10:01:59 PM

link

[link|http://www.religioustolerance.org/heav_hel3.htm|http://www.religious...org/heav_hel3.htm]
regards,
daemon

Post #189,554

by Ashton

1/10/05 4:11:34 AM

{chortle}

Pick from the smorg\ufffdsbord - *anyone* can call self a 'Christian', claim Certainty and possess The One Truth [Which YOU Don't]

cha.cha.cha.

I hear ... screaming neurons, afraid they can't shut off the bafflegab machine in time!

Post #190,094

by a6l6e6x

1/13/05 3:37:27 PM

Heck, even CRC calls himself Christian! :)

Alex

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

Post #189,542

1/9/05 10:32:58 PM

Merely existense og hell

does not gurantee that every non-believer goes there. The Devil is in the details :)

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,543

1/9/05 10:36:44 PM

Ha! :-)

Post #189,899

by Ashton

1/12/05 3:46:14 AM

Love. It.

A masterfully terse piece of logic.

Except.. I've never met any two 'Christians' who have excerpted the exact same assortment of (personally) 'acceptable' tenets amidst all the contradictory, variously translated/transliterated/edited mass of the Testaments I & II.

Perpetual-Out: "Well, I don't buy That interpretation, because in __ C __ V __ there's ..."
Bulletproof.

(Why, Leviticus alone can empty a whole bottle of White-out\ufffd, without even cracking the cover on the sci-fi parts in that currently Popular section, now a Novelist's $mine)

Nice try, though :-)

Post #189,535

1/9/05 9:51:21 PM

Beg to differ.

People who know they know have always troubled me.

Moreover, I find little, if anything, appealing in anyone who believes he/she is better than me or anyone else on the planet because of "their special relationship with Jesus Christ." The whole notion is ludicrous - embrace some medieval superstition and instantly you are more holy, more deserving than anyone else on the planet. Bah.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,540

by imric

1/9/05 10:18:20 PM

The problem is your bigotry.

And your apparently firm belief that being Christian is to believe "you are more holy, more deserving than anyone else on the planet" despite the FACT that Christianity says something entirely different. In your prejudice, you classify all Christians in the most negative terms you can - and you shout it out at every opportunity.

Self righteous hypocrites are everywhere.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,553

by Ashton

1/10/05 3:58:40 AM

Pretty loose slathering of 'bigotry',

unless it is bigotry to identify as an authentic enemy any person who Would (and especially, possesses the power to Do) impose tenets peculiar to his religious dogma - on all members of a secular State (say, one with its own Constitutional rules which do not allow this infliction upon any plurality nor any minority?)

Yes, I've no doubt there are many nice guys who Believe infinitely many 'things', and I care not at all what their own fav Beliefs are / just as they care not what Mine are (except when they Do care to ignore the Differences - in matters which affect my secular life here).

Then there is the person who parades his beliefs; sleeve or microphone. There are even such persons as will parade these with pom-pom and shako, as a choreographed part of a campaign for Office - in such a secular State.
Some may even claim that, God wanted me to become President {just shy, but not very-shy of claiming, She. Told. Me. So.}

And when such a person is elected, in such a secular State; when there is compelling evidence that many have chosen his leadership *because* of his professed beliefs and *despite* a litany of evidence of previous incompetent, fraudulent or insouciant behaviour in secular affairs in that secular Office:

I'd find it a wry twist to define opposition to this person/regime - via all legal means possible - to signify bigotry! One need not despise the tenet-holder to despise the tenet and its psycho-social consequences for all living creatures. To coin a phrase.

In fact, for those who deem that such grandiose hubris is a clear sign of mental aberration / a sign also of a willingness to place trivial value upon daily "activities and their consequences" of mere planetary kind, a planet of which that State is a small portion: opposition is easily weighed on the scale, a matter of life/death for millions, and not just concerning the survival of that evanescent 'State'.

Color me bigot then, so long as I may still refer to the deluded as, deluded .. and describe these as IMO ~ "unimaginably Dangerous to all life forms".

(Then we can introduce the anti-bigot, whose protons are [-] charged. Now we have not the usual boring duality, but a .^.. triangle to wrestle with.)

While ~~The New~~ Rome burns, during the counting of angels on pinheads, by the devoutly Believing Ones.

Terra, Cause of Demise: Religious Certainty + nukes
- seen on a napkin on a table in the Restaurant at the End of the Universe, I. Believe.

Post #189,555

1/10/05 6:54:10 AM

I call Strawman

Imric says:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
your apparently firm belief that being Christian is to believe "you are more holy, more deserving than anyone else on the planet" despite the FACT that Christianity says something entirely different. In your prejudice, you classify all Christians in the most negative terms you can - and you shout it out at every opportunity.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ashton says:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Then there is the person who parades his beliefs; sleeve or microphone. There are even such persons as will parade these with pom-pom and shako, as a choreographed part of a campaign for Office - in such a secular State.
Some may even claim that, God wanted me to become President {just shy, but not very-shy of claiming, She. Told. Me. So.}

And when such a person is elected, in such a secular State; when there is compelling evidence that many have chosen his leadership *because* of his professed beliefs and *despite* a litany of evidence of previous incompetent, fraudulent or insouciant behaviour in secular affairs in that secular Office:

I'd find it a wry twist to define opposition to this person/regime - via all legal means possible - to signify bigotry! One need not despise the tenet-holder to despise the tenet and its psycho-social consequences for all living creatures.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Where is the connection between your "person" and the people Imric is talking about? You take the worst (well, hardly worst... There really have been worse) example of somebody calling himself a "Christian", and pronounce a judjement on the whole religion. If that is not bigotry, what is?

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,557

by imric

1/10/05 8:38:02 AM

bigotry: n

big\ufffdot\ufffdry
n.

the intolerance and prejudice of a bigot

big\ufffdot
n.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Not loose at all.

Stop the language murder, Ash.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,562

1/10/05 9:32:35 AM

ICLRPD (new thread)

Created as new thread #189561 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189561|ICLRPD]

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,636

by Ashton

1/10/05 5:32:22 PM

1/10/05 5:43:42 PM

Oh Pshaw -

So facile to label the heathens/opposition, bigots.
(That ploy had worked often, before/during the countless Wars of Organized Corporate Religions.)

Individuals are always Individuals.. right up to the joining of a mob. Lighten up.. what matters the loss a small green-blue planet In The Larger Scheme of Things? Hey.. I buy that the daily illusion IS a daily illusion. Too.
(But at least I Know I can't 'Prove' that! to a garden variety demagogue-Certainty, that now most popular form of all meeja nondiscourse ;-)

Matters not which Corporate label a one affixes, except that in the US 'Christianity' is BIG, and I live here. But there's no important difference amongst 'fundamentalists' worldwide, in simultaneously Believing at the least -

A) I Possess (am possessed by) The. Truth.
B) Those others: Don't. (And various nasty things shall happen to Those - for not Knowing What I Know\ufffd)
C) cha. cha. cha.

('Fundamentalist'? - a one who cannot discern allegory from myth, metaphor from historicity.. and has no intention of exploring those or any other ideas, preferring canned-Authority over all other sources of human mentation. If we need a definition, too.)

Today these are no longer just individuals worshipping any old cockamamie thing - these are a Political Movement, with the *stated* aim of remanufacturing America into a/*their* theological model of 'Reality'. It's no longer just their Murican Dream\ufffd - it's got *$Funding* (plus those nukes - never forget The Nukes).

The Constitution is in tatters, the USSC is about to receive an infusion of ideologues only dreamt of by the likes of My Gramma. Seems that the next few generations are in palpable jeopardy, as the level of abortion of the Constitution is being worked out. And a few other activities are going apace, some may have noticed. As the wealth=Power steadily moves towards highest concentration ever.

All bets are off in the face of this frontal and lateral attack upon the Secular State. Screw that merely grating perpetual sanctimoniousness and the wordgame bullshit about, "loving the sinner / hating the sin" -- as many of the claimed-religieuse tacitly applauded the death of that young queer tied to the fence, et al. That was just normal human hypocrisy, and expected.

Now it is about a forming coalition which employ religio- rationales to achieve the death of a Republic (or at least sorta-Republic.. already well into a Corporatocracy).

As to any common denominator across n+1 sects -??-
Anthem heard, too bloody- often:

Onward, Christian *soldiers* -- marching as to *war*
---> with the Cross of Jesus
-----> Going on Before
<snip>
Like a Mighty *Army*.. ETC.

QED enough? Yup, it's Political AND it's now YAN fucking War. Even.. a War *about* the constant Warring, one might say. Let's seek Root causes, while seeking.
I aver that the religio-fundamentalist mindset is the common cause of most every 'war' since the first priesthood established itself to sell salvation to folks, from things that go bump in the night. (Before that, it was about the usual litany of wants+power to Get them from someone not-Me.)

Hmmm - maybe.. the Good Christians will first kill-off the Righteous-Christians :-0 cha. cha. cha. and a New Fork.
In the ear of the highly suggestible ... anything's Possible.

I Who Be
or if you prefer,
I, Heathen

Edit - dupe

Love the tenet-deluded; despise the deluded-tenet.
Aphorisms r'US

Edited by Ashton Jan. 10, 2005, 05:43:42 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #189,640

by imric

1/10/05 6:03:47 PM

1/10/05 6:04:04 PM

A+B+C=mmoffit, ash. Like it or not.

Ther is no QED in your statements. You demonstraded nothing but your willingness to demonize an entire group of people because of the hypocritical actions of a few. Oh. I get it. THAT'S what you wanted to demonstrate.

Cha.
Cha.
Cha.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Edited by imric Jan. 10, 2005, 06:04:04 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #189,644

1/10/05 6:21:19 PM

Re: A+B+C=mmoffit, ash. Like it or not.

You demonstraded nothing but your willingness to demonize an entire group of people because of the hypocritical actions of a few.

Don't forget that he demonstrated a healthy dose of fear-mongering as well. "You think its bad NOW...just WAIT till the Pope gets appointed Supreme Justice."

Let's waltz instead.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,657

by Ashton

1/10/05 7:40:52 PM

Pope's OK - unlikely ever to drop a nuke. The others ???

Post #189,660

1/10/05 8:09:48 PM

Pope is very happy that you aprove of him.

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,664

1/10/05 8:55:01 PM

Remember the bumper sticker?

"Nuke a gay whale for Christ"? I think its due for a comeback.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,666

by daemon

1/10/05 9:04:36 PM

nuke all the unborn gay whales, revisionist stickerman you

Post #189,668

1/10/05 9:07:06 PM

I got yer sticker raght cheer.

[link|http://www.northernsun.com/cgi-bin/ns/0114.html|http://www.northerns...-bin/ns/0114.html]

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,842

by daemon

1/11/05 6:24:52 PM

great I ordered 2, what kind of car you got again? :-)

Post #189,852

1/11/05 7:03:31 PM

On a car in Indiana, those will get you shot!

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,541

1/9/05 10:31:35 PM

1/9/05 11:03:12 PM

See 62232 and 65768.

[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=62332|62332] and [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=65768|65768] (though in [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=69006|69006] you say Carter's campaign was your second job. ;-)

Jimmy was born again - remember?

Being born again doesn't necessarily destroy one's humility. There are arrogant jerks of every stripe.

[edit: tyop]

Cheers,
Scott.

Edited by Another Scott Jan. 9, 2005, 11:03:12 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #189,544

1/9/05 10:58:43 PM

Example

In my office, we have programmers of varying skillsets and abilities.

The absolute best of the bunch is a born again (does that need caps?).

He is also one of the nicest people I've ever met.

But there is a very interesting spark, a subtle texture of his personality.

I always thought it was a good thing he was born again, because if not he'd be dangerous.

Post #189,545

1/9/05 11:00:15 PM

:-)

Post #189,573

1/10/05 11:12:04 AM

There was a difference in 1975.

I don't really give a tinker's damn what anyone believes. In 1975, the Pat Robertsons, Jerry Falwells, Jimmy & Tammy Fayes, Ralph Reeds, Jimmy Swaggarts, etc. ad nauseum all had their (as commonly defined at the time) "kookie followings" but none had any real political power. Which was as it should be (and still should be, forever and ever, amen).

But now, of course, we've seen the loonies creep into every crevice of our governance. Pat Robertson actually ran for president - and worse got (iirc) over one million votes! How you feel about some one who "speaks in tongues" having his finger on the button?

At a personal level, I don't care if you believe the earth is flat, the Universe circles the earth or that there's a nice old man keeping an eye on you from the heavens. Believe that all you want. Just DO NOT be placed in a position of power. Because if you believe all that lunacy about "revelations", you might just want it to get here quicker and, ironically, if such a person is in power I might want to end life on the planet quickly as well because I cannot imagine the horror of living in a Born Again Christian Theocracy.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,642

by daemon

1/10/05 6:19:09 PM

I am not a born again

would you feel safer if I had the button? Trust me, if there is a g_d and its time for the nukes Mr Tilly would press the button, thats how it works. If there is a g_d and its not time for nukes Mr. Tilly will not press the button. Thats how it works.
regards,
daemon

Post #189,646

1/10/05 6:23:08 PM

Re: I am not a born again

would you feel safer if I had the button?

Let's stick to old man-fu for now and not trust you with the football.

Ben maybe.

You...bzzzt.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,901

by Ashton

1/12/05 5:09:19 AM

Unclear on the baggage mix.

'Born Again' has a somewhat loose connotation re the tenets embraced / their degree of huggedness? Obviously Mr. Carter, after long observation has *never* shown any tendencies towards ~
Oh What the Fuck - it's all gonna go up in Holy Smoke pretty soon.. why not just start shooting up those vexatious Brown People who genuflect in that funny way? Maybe I can get a Second term and install My Son, next...

I'm not sure how one would devise a litmus for say, "degree of fascination? immersion..? obsession..!?" with the sci-fi part of the pair of Testaments. Not that -realistically- one would ever be likely to attach any power-of-consequence to the reading of the color of such a test strip. Not in a '#1-type Christian Country\ufffd', anyway.

(I suppose that a subscription to the current series of rilly Popular novels on Rapturin' out, a fascination with tales of being bodily [Are these guys Unclear on their Own Concept?] extirpated from your steerage seat on Refurbished Airlines and Macram\ufffd LLC? -- could be a winner, in the turgid profession of trying to define fungible %looniness.)

But it would be hilarious to see the final form, the actual legalese surmounting/ submerging the religio- and psych- speak phraseology of The Bill: before the Chief Justice of the United States, The Honorable Clarence Thomas and his new Associate Justices, Jerry Foulwell and Matt Drudge.

Yours for better plots in the Daily Illusion **** Final Edition, with race results at all major tracks.

Post #189,499

1/9/05 3:27:24 PM

Right.

So on a continuing basis the sitting President is "dangerous" becasue his beliefs differ from yours. Kerry was ok cause he doesn't really believe his beliefs. And all the while the continuing inclusiveness of all religious doctrines in this administration are all lies becasue W knows there is only 1 true gawd and since noone who believes differently can be "saved" then it is our official position that they should all be killed.

/me starts to wonder who the crazy one >really< is.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,531

1/9/05 9:46:33 PM

1600 of our militia know he is dangerous.

So do their families.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,538

1/9/05 10:03:56 PM

Nice subject change

but it no workie.

Kerry also believes. He must necessarily be disqualifed to hold the office because you see those beliefs as "dangerous".

Oh well.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,577

1/10/05 11:19:24 AM

<sigh>

Kerry is not a Fundamentalist Christian. The Fundies are dangerous and should be banned from serving.

Maybe its imprecise language, but for me, Moral Majority Member == Born Again Christian == Fundamentalist Christian == lunatic.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,584

1/10/05 11:35:21 AM

Thanks for clearing that up.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #189,587

by imric

1/10/05 11:50:07 AM

So those that do not believe as you do should be banned

from serving, eh?

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,588

1/10/05 12:05:28 PM

Not at all.

Those who believe the end of the world is a good thing should be banned. Those who believe that the vast majority of humans (who are not Christians, thankyouverymuch) are in anyway "inferior" should be banned - along with any other religion's followers holding their beliefs are superior to anyone else's. And most of all, anyone who thinks they are on a mission from God should be banned.

What one privately believes is irrelevant - up to the point where those beliefs constitute a danger to others. And that is what (should) disqualify fundamentalist Christians.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,600

by imric

1/10/05 12:34:05 PM

Bah. Ideology Police? Thought Police?

Religious Authorties? Better just leave it to the political officers, eh.
I think that your views are just as bad as the Neocons'. In your regime, political participation would depend on political correctness. I assume that PC would be controlled by an 'enlightened' few? Because democracy obviously doesn't come into it.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,605

1/10/05 1:28:11 PM

Almost.

Democracy might be globally too dangerous. If, in a democracy, the majority hold that the end of the world is the most cherished event to strive for and that democractic nation has access to enough nuclear armaments to reduce the world to rubble and then bounce the rubble around 19 or 20 times, it seems to me that a strict dictatorship of the people might be a better option. Provided that dictatorship is not based upon some medieval superstitious religion of fear.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,616

1/10/05 2:40:15 PM

1/10/05 2:42:00 PM

But only >certain< people.

How about blonds?

You would happen to be smallish in build with dark hair and a moustache?

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Edited by bepatient Jan. 10, 2005, 02:42:00 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #189,617

by imric

1/10/05 2:57:36 PM

Oh. Instead your dictatorship would be based upon

a 'morality' that judges people and declares their suitability or inferiority based on your own self-righteous agenda.

Oh, you are SO far above the people you criticize. Your superiority is apparent. Why - your ideology is MILES away from the one you claim to despise - it HAS to be. You KNOW that you are superior!

[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]

(just so your apparently delusional psyche doesn't get this post wrong:)

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,662

1/10/05 8:47:00 PM

Reduced to its simplest form.

Here's my position in a nutshell. Anyone whose philosophical belief system leads them to conclude that the world must be destroyed to be saved is not suited for high public office.

If such a position causes me to be a bigot with a superiority complex, so be it.

And like it or not, the above mentioned conclusion is central to fundamentalist Christianity.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,672

1/10/05 9:13:38 PM

Maybe not.

Remember [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=188733|this]?

Now a case from Christianity. Many evangelicals stress an apocalyptic verse in the second epistle of Peter which ends: \ufffdthe Earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.\ufffd If it's all going to be consumed by fire, some evangelicals say, then why worry about pollution or climate change? But the oldest existing version of the New Testament, long preserved at St Catherine's monastery on Mount Sinai and now (most of it) in the British Library, has a different Greek verb for the Earth's fate: evretesetai, not katakaesetai. Instead of being burned up, the Earth will be uncovered, its true nature exposed. That, too, is a difference worth studying, for both believers and everyone else.

Emphasis added.

I doubt that you can point to anyone in particular in the Bush administration that advocates destroying the Earth to hasten the apocalypse. Care to try to surprise me?

From what I've read of the Frontline transcripts, and your comments here, you seem to have accepted some caricature of Bush's faith as reality. [link|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/interviews/green.html|E.g.]:

[John Green:] [...]

So President Bush, in some sense, stands astride the major Protestant traditions in the United States. [But] \ufffdbecause President Bush has such strong religious beliefs and talks about his faith so explicitly, many people want to categorize him. They want to figure out what religious community or religious tradition he belongs to.

It's a difficult thing to do, because President Bush, in many respects, partakes of a number of different religious traditions. He's a member of the United Methodist Church. He's very closely connected to the Wesleyan tradition, and that leads him to lean a little bit towards mainline Protestantism. On the other hand, he's had a personally transforming experience.
\t
He talks about how his faith changed his life and how he'd like faith to change other people's lives, and that puts him a little bit more in the evangelical camp. President Bush hasn't actually told us where he stands -- perhaps because he isn't entirely sure himself, because he draws from a variety of different perspectives, but also because it may not be the best thing to do politically to identify with one or another religious tradition when, in fact, he can identify with several. In his political activity, he often strides across different religious boundaries and can, therefore, appeal to people from different religious backgrounds.

[Frontline:]Evangelicals claim him as one of their own. They feel they have an ally in the White House.

There's no question that the evangelical community has an ally in President Bush on a number of different issues, and in terms of basic values. There is a great deal of commonality between President Bush and evangelicals. Technically speaking, though, President Bush is a mainline Protestant, from the more conservative or traditional, or, if you will, evangelical wing of mainline Protestantism, but not really part of the core of the evangelical community, as scholars tend to understand it.

So there is a sense in which evangelicals are claiming somebody who really isn't part of their religious community, but someone who shares many of their values, who certainly understands them well, and shares a number of their religious beliefs.

[Frontline:]And while he walks in both worlds, he also differs from both.

Certainly, President Bush differs from his own denomination, from the United Methodist Church, in that he doesn't adopt a lot of its official positions. For instance, he is pro-life on abortion, whereas United Methodists tend to be pro-choice. He disagrees with many Methodists on social welfare issues, and Methodists have a long tradition of supporting the welfare state. President Bush [is] very critical of the welfare state. On foreign policy, President Bush has a somewhat more aggressive foreign policy than many Methodists would agree with.

But if you compare him to the evangelical community, he doesn't completely agree with them either. For instance, when it comes to issues like how the government should relate to the gay population. President Bush is much more tolerant -- unwilling to stigmatize people. When asked about the gay community, for instance, President Bush will often say, "Well, we have to recognize that we're all sinners and we shouldn't be critical of one another, and we need to be tolerant of each other."

On a number of other issues, even on abortion, President Bush is unwilling to commit himself to, say, a constitutional amendment to abolish abortions, which evangelicals would really like to see. He has a much more moderate position on abortion. So on a variety of issues, he contradicts both the mainline Protestant position and the evangelical Protestant position.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #189,678

1/10/05 9:29:07 PM

1/10/05 9:35:18 PM

In point of fact, you may be correct.

I have to admit that what frightens me most about the rise of the religious right is that they have a say in our body politic now - and a very powerful one. Rove's genius this time was getting the "gay marriage" initiatives on the ballots in key states. That brought the fundies out in droves and (most likely, history will tell us for sure) tipped the scales in good ol' dub's favor. Now, even if I yield on the point that I overestimated how much of a fundie dub himself is, it is still quite clear that he owes much to the fundie right. And that, all by itself and without regard to his personal views, is alarming enough. I don't have a link, but it has been widely reported that the single best indicator of whom you voted for was whether you attend church regularly. That is scary.

[Edit - just had to]

I doubt that you can point to anyone in particular in the Bush administration that advocates destroying the Earth to hasten the apocalypse. Care to try to surprise me?

Have you taken a look at any of the Bush Admin's environmental policies? </smirk>

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Edited by mmoffitt Jan. 10, 2005, 09:35:18 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #189,676

by daemon

1/10/05 9:19:16 PM

wow, excludes communists, hindoo's, muslims christians

Jews, green party and all environmentalists, black people, hispanics and native americans pretty much leaves Arnie or me as prez and that would take a constitutional change.
regards,
daemon

Post #189,679

1/10/05 9:30:14 PM

You are killing me.

Which communist, exactly, was it who said "we have to destroy the world in order to save it?" Now don't cheat and set capitalism == the world. ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,684

by daemon

1/10/05 9:51:04 PM

ya sure you want to go there?

all movements are by nature messianic: me, dunno if I heard it or made it up
[link|http://www.internationalism.org/wr/230_lead.htm|http://www.internati...g/wr/230_lead.htm]

"In the end, it is all the same whether we are wiped out in a rain of thermonuclear bombs, or by pollution, epidemics and the massacres of small wars (where nuclear weapons might also be used). The only difference between these two forms of annihilation lies in that one is quick, while the other will be slower, and would consequently provoke still more suffering" ('Decomposition, final phase of the decadence of capitalism', in the ICC pamphlet The decadence of capitalism).

followed by a close one,
regards,
daemon
[link|http://www.brightstarsound.com/world_hero/article.html|http://www.brightsta...hero/article.html]

Post #189,685

1/10/05 9:53:05 PM

That's not exactly calling for it. More like lamenting.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,687

by daemon

1/10/05 9:57:52 PM

you mean lamentations 1-5? :-)

Post #189,690

1/10/05 10:04:48 PM

BTW, thanks for the link.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,734

1/11/05 9:18:32 AM

Oh Mike, Mike

You're so exposing yourself...

Original:

Du passe faisons table rase
Foules, esclaves, debout, debout
Le monde va changer de base
Nous ne sommes rien, soyons tout

Literary translation:

Never more traditions' chains shall bind us
Arise ye toilers no more in thrall
The earth shall rise on new foundations
We are but naught we shall be all.

Word-by-word translation
(someone with better French, help me out here)

Du passe faisons table rase
We make "tabula rasa" of the past

Foules, esclaves, debout, debout
Masses, slaves, arise, arise!

Le monde va changer de base
The world is changing its foundation

Nous ne sommes rien, soyons tout
We are nothing, shall be all.

Back-translation from the Russian version (and before you say that it was tainted by "real socilism" - it has not changed since early 20th century, or late 19th AFAIK.

We shall destroy the entire world of violence
To its foundations, and then
We shal build our own, our new world.
He who was nothing, shall be all.

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,770

1/11/05 12:57:39 PM

I've never apologized for being me ;-)

But the kind of "destruction" spoken about in your post is not the all encompassing "killing everyone on the planet" kind of destruction the fundies speak of and look forward to.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,830

1/11/05 5:47:52 PM

As Ben pointed out

"fundies" are not eager to do the destruction with their own hands. While your "workers" are.

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,856

1/11/05 7:04:23 PM

But you assume Capitalism == the world. And it doesn't ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,866

1/11/05 7:45:43 PM

And you assume that this weary existance is "world" ;o)

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,873

1/11/05 9:51:14 PM

I yield to the better argument ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,883

by Ashton

1/11/05 10:46:34 PM

Tilt. Error 666: metaphysical change-of-scale.

Post #189,681

by imric

1/10/05 9:46:46 PM

Bull.

You talking apocalypse? Because there's 1000 years of peace afterwards. Any fundamentalist will tell you THAT. Gee - It seems "the world must be destroyed" isn't a fundamentalist stricture after all. Hell, if you buy 'rapture' only the fundamentalists are taken away. Surely that's what you WANT. Gee - your knowledge of fundamentalism seems to be based on prejudice. Surprise, surprise.

"Anyone whose philosophical belief system leads them to conclude that the world must be destroyed to be saved is not suited for high public office"

Gee - and fundamentalists are the ones that hold this belief? Funny - it seems that even though fundamentalists DON'T believe that, many, many politicians did. Remember M.A.D.? A strategy held by all superpowers for a long time? But I guess they were all fundamentalists too. Or mostly. Maybe some? Surely that supports your prejudice.

"And like it or not, the above mentioned conclusion is central to fundamentalist Christianity."

Like it or not, you are FULL OF IT. I've never heard ANYONE preach bringing about the battle of Armageddon. Ever. Only to be prepared for it.

Tell you what - find me a percentage of fundamentalist Christians that WANT to initiate even the battle of Armageddon - how many want the Antichrist to take over? Why aren't they calling for, say the branding of all atheists and satanists with the mark of the beast (or any other strategy) in an attempt to 'force God's hand'? Don't just blab that 'they all want that' or any other bigoted statement. Find me a number. I assert that percentage is comparable with the percentage of people that believe in genocide in combination of breeding 'supermen' as a way to improve the human race. Or the number of people that believe that all 'African Americans' should be shipped off to Africa. Or any other evil philosophy. In other words, evil is independent of religion. Of course, your prejudice, your bigotry, leads you to 'classify' Christians as a group as 'dangerous'. Like Hitler did with the Jews.

You are all about removing choice of leadership, though. The people have no right to choose - only you and those like minded have that right. Sorry, I consider that POV to be sick.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,683

1/10/05 9:50:40 PM

Just watch ONE Jack Van Emp television show. Just one.

And funny you bring the "ship 'em back to Africa" thing. Recall that the South during the Civil War quoted Jesus as a justfication for slavery.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,689

by imric

1/10/05 10:00:05 PM

Give details. Quote fact.

My statements stand. I have NEVER heard a preacher preach that thier flock do evil in order to bring about Armageddon.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,692

1/10/05 10:18:35 PM

It's Impe, btw. Sorry.

He's syndicated, everywhere, natch.

Are you telling me that fundie Christians aren't really looking forward to this?

"The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch-angel, and with the trump of God...Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together...in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-7).

or this?

Clearly, this exercise builds one's confidence that we are living in the very end of the age. When you have this amount of potential Biblical prophecy fulfillment, simultaneously occurring at the same time as many other Biblical prophecies, such as the restoration of Israel, you must seriously conclude that Jesus Christ is most probably at the door.

[link|http://www.cuttingedge.org/ce1013.html|http://www.cuttingedge.org/ce1013.html]

That was an "I feel lucky" google hit. Clearly, if these fundies aren't actively trying to bring about the "End of Times", they sure as hell are looking forward to it. And do you really want the leaders of nation-states with enough nuclear power to bring about the "End of Times" actually looking forward to it?

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,699

by imric

1/10/05 10:45:35 PM

Bah. Looking forward is NOT 'to bring it about'

I look forward to my birthday. Should I try and make the Earth spin faster?

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,768

1/11/05 12:54:04 PM

See my first 2 paragraphs of my reply to Ben. (link)

[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189767|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=189767]

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,773

by imric

1/11/05 1:25:56 PM

Rationalize all you want.

Inimical to democracy and freedom as you (and your anti-Christian agenda) are, I won't recommend that you are not allowed to run for office, or that you be relegated to 2nd class citizen. I am sure that you would be defeated by an OVERWHELMING majority.

What's that LRPD? Oh yeah: "you are so wrong philosophers weep at the sound of your voice".

Ciao.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,686

by daemon

1/10/05 9:56:06 PM

uh, sorry to burst your bubble

I have sat in on pentacostal preachers detailing end days morality that was hard core enough to jerk off to, couldnt wait for armageddon to start so they could get to the killing of the damned. I know this is anecdotal so just compare the sales of the "after the rapture" series of books here in america to the jihadi kill all the jews and american cd's overseas and you will probably find a tie.
regards,
daemon

Post #189,691

by imric

1/10/05 10:08:01 PM

Never heard one.

What percentage of Christans believe such bullshit, do you think?

Even fundamentalist? I know a few - was engaged to one for a time - and I simply do not buy that even a large minority want to 'force God's hand'.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,693

1/10/05 10:20:05 PM

Enough to elect Dubya. And that is too damned many.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,700

by imric

1/10/05 10:47:25 PM

So he was elected to 'destroy the world'? Pfah.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #189,732

1/11/05 9:04:23 AM

If he was, he's succeeding.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,697

by daemon

1/10/05 10:38:01 PM

demographics

not a matter of forcing g_od's hand but hard belief that we are "here" and adherence to doctrine. Every generation believes this the end times since joshua ben david was a large example of his generation. The believers think the technology of each generation is enough to set it off. Although we have the ability to wipe mankind out of the earth many times over I beleive cockroaches rats and humans will surivive in enough pockets and evolve "with intelligent design" to go to the next level whatever that is. If you believe in evolution we went from tree swingers to upright walkers with no tools except what we could make. I think like evolutionists we are built to survive, and maybe mod 2 to mod 3,264(like ash believes " will survive and persevere.
[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal]

The size of Pentecostalism in the U.S. is estimated to be more than 20 million and also including approx 918,000 (4%) of the Hispanic-American population, counting all unaffiliated congregations, although exact numbers are hard to come by, in part because some tenets of Pentecostalism are held by members of non-Pentecostal denominations in what has been called the charismatic movement.

remember John Ashcroft is from this schism

Post #189,701

by imric

1/10/05 10:50:05 PM

OK - that's 1 number.

4% of Hispanics believe these are the 'end times'. How many of THOSE want to bring them about?

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #190,097

by a6l6e6x

1/13/05 4:18:59 PM

Here's another number.

[link|http://www.rickross.com/reference/millennium/millennium86.html|Apocalypse now]

According to a Time/CNN poll conducted in July 2002, 17 per cent of Americans believe 'that the end of the world will happen in their lifetime' and 59 per cent that 'the prophecies of the Book of Revelation will come true.' If you drive into the American heartland and twiddle the dial, those figures will begin to make sense. The preachers, who share local radio time with country-music strummers, all thump out the message: Be Rapture Ready and, if you are left behind, be sure to be on God's side in the great battle to come.

Alex

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

Post #190,100

by imric

1/13/05 4:52:44 PM

And how many are urged to bring about the conditions

of Armageddon? (an event that is not 'the end', something any fundie could tell you)

How many believe they should do evil and knowingly put thae antichrist in charge to bring it about?

How many?

How does this contrast with the numbers that have believed that at every millenium, indee, every time, throughout history? How many, historically, have tried to bring about the conditions of prophesy themselves?

I guess that geologists and vulcanologists cause earthquakes and volcanoes, too.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #190,107

by a6l6e6x

1/13/05 5:33:44 PM

At least this one:

[link|http://baltimorechronicle.com/011305PaulLevy.shtml|George Bush].

Alex

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

Post #190,129

1/13/05 9:31:34 PM

Oh dear...will lithium help?

j.f.c.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #190,142

by Ashton

1/14/05 4:05:23 AM

(Seems to be only enough for the Red States, currently)

Post #190,141

by Ashton

1/14/05 4:04:01 AM

I predicted something once. After I saw Bigfoot.

Oh ye of little faith..

Post #190,148

1/14/05 8:24:44 AM

Is it Evil to allow destruction when you can prevent it?

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #190,527

by daemon

1/17/05 10:34:39 PM

if its time to push the button it gets pushed, or not

fuck all we can do about it so why worry? If there is an world blaster I hope I will be at ground zero to avoid the turmoil of trying to survive.
regards,
daemon

Post #189,731

1/11/05 8:43:35 AM

Now there's a wrong-headed philosophy

Here's my position in a nutshell. Anyone whose philosophical belief system leads them to conclude that the world must be destroyed to be saved is not suited for high public office.

Now if you'd said, ..leads them to conclude that we must destroy the world to save it... then I'd be inclined to agree. And if they're inclined to act on that thought, then I'd prefer them to wind up in jail or an insane asylum. (Both have happened in the past.)

But I'd also see the point as moot since there is no group out there who believes that who is likely to get democratically elected. And I'm not willing to throw away democracy worrying about it.

Back to your position, there is a significant difference between what you said and what I said. The difference is who acts. Someone who believes that God will destroy the world but who has no inclination to do it themselves is fairly safe in my books. I don't believe that there is a God to do that destroying, and I'm willing to let them wait expectantly as long as they desire. As long as that person or persons are not inclined to act on God's behalf, I don't feel particularly threatened by that belief.

Furthermore, your analysis of why this belief system should be banned applies to the version that I described, not the one that you did. Which means that, unless you have other reasons for your position, you should adopt my more nuanced version (that doesn't suggest that we immediately try to dismantle democracy).

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #189,767

1/11/05 12:51:49 PM

No it isn't.

Now if you'd said, ..leads them to conclude that we must destroy the world to save it... then I'd be inclined to agree. And if they're inclined to act on that thought, then I'd prefer them to wind up in jail or an insane asylum.

They (the fundies) are not in charge. Remember? This is God's plan. And if to a True Believer it is God's plan to destroy the world, what exactly do you suspect said True Believer to do to slow or stop the destruction?

Right. Nothing.

The real difference between us is that you only condemn active destruction, while I additionally condemn passively (and gleefully) allowing the destruction to occur.

And having my position is far from wrong-headed. By your reasoning a parent who withholds medical treatment for their child out of some idiotic religious conviction is guilty of nothing. The parent did not "actively" cause the disease/trauma/whatever. In this case, your position cries out to defend the parent even more - they didn't even want their child to be ill, while the aforementioned Christian is actually looking forward to the end of the world. Strikes me that our hypothetical parent is a more sympathetic character.

And you call my position "wrong-headed"? Feh.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,782

1/11/05 2:51:11 PM

And you remain wrong

My reasoning does not lead where you claim that it does. My reasoning leads to saying that people who believe that their kids should not get medical care should be allowed to participate in the political system. I disagree with them. If they violate the law, then I advocate charging them. But if I'm willing to accept that people whose opinions I don't like shouldn't be allowed to participate, then why should I expect that I should be allowed to participate? (More people are likely to abhor my beliefs than theirs...)

Again, be very careful before you advocate throwing out democracy. No matter how much you may dislike the current state, the odds are that whomever leads a change like that will be worse. A lot worse.

It would be cliche to point to past examples like Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin. Cliche but true. For a current example, well if there was support for discarding democracy in this country, guess who would be likely to wind up as dictator? You got it, the commander in chief of the military, who has substantial support both within our military and within the states from whose ranks the military is overwhelmingly drawn.

Think about that before suggesting anything idiotic. For the record, were I to be forced to choose at the moment between giving power to you or George Bush, I'd choose Bush. As much as I hate him and he scares me, he hasn't said or advocated anything (yet) that I see as causing irreparable harm to the principle of American democracy. You, on the other hand, have.

And, as tradition will have it, this is all that I have to say you on this topic. Unless you come up with something stunningly novel, I'm not going to bother responding to you any more on this topic because you and everyone present know what I would say well enough that I don't need to bother saying it.

Regards,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #189,785

by pwhysall

1/11/05 2:54:30 PM

OT: Branch this, please.

The right-shift is killing me.

Post #189,805

1/11/05 4:10:52 PM

The arrogance of youth.

A question != advocacy.

Emphasis added to help the reader.

Democracy might be globally too dangerous.

... a strict dictatorship of the people might be a better option. Provided that dictatorship is not based upon some medieval superstitious religion of fear.

And now for something completely different, Ben's misrepresentation of what I said:

Again, be very careful before you advocate throwing out democracy.

For the record, were I to be forced to choose at the moment between giving power to you or George Bush, I'd choose Bush. As much as I hate him and he scares me, he hasn't said or advocated anything (yet) that I see as causing irreparable harm to the principle of American democracy. You, on the other hand, have.

Ah yes, I've irreparably harmed American democracy by ..... expressing an idea. An idea so heinous that I dare not repeat it more than once: "People who look forward to the destruction of life on the planet should not be in power."

Unadulterated blasphemy, that's what it is.

Now, I'm done.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,900

by Ashton

1/12/05 4:19:52 AM

Re: Now there's a wrong-headed ... lateral arabesque?

Maybe we need not decide what IS is.

Look, suppose you needed a Doctor to perform a bleeding edge new sort of operation, one so new that there are no nice survival stats on outcomes; there's dissension from the old guard, etc.

You find one who says he can help.
You investigate a little; find that he's a big fan of Mary Shelley, has collected very many body parts in his lab (well preserved by latest tricks). He really Wants the job.

Of course, if his heart isn't much in Your aims; if it doesn't work out too well for you -- there's this other project, the only one he's Really Interested in.

Would you want this Doctor in charge of your life (expectancy)?

Of course too, all realize that there is absolutely no way to expect some 'law' change to prevent a religio-loony and lots of other kinds - from say, achieving let's even say: control over the Bagman's codes. Such as we are, and just now, before any nukes actually fly. (Most weren't born when the last ones flew/dropped)

So this discussion was moot before phase II.

My 3 Kopeks

Post #189,929

1/12/05 12:29:42 PM

The point you may have missed

I wouldn't want that doctor, and I'm not voting for Bush either.

But look at your closing thought: Of course too, all realize that there is absolutely no way to expect some 'law' change to prevent a religio-loony and lots of other kinds - from say, achieving let's even say: control over the Bagman's codes.

I only wish that was true. This argument is over the fact that Mike apparently does seem to think that it is reasonable and desirable to make a law change to prevent religio-loonies from having access to political power. And doesn't understand why many of us (myself included) see this as advocating something that would cause irreparable harm to the principle of American democracy.

I'd also like to wave a magic wand and have the problem go away. But banning fundamentalist Christians from political office isn't the way to do it.

What would happen if there was such a ban? Well quite simply, the principle of having a democracy that everyone is free to participate in would be gone. The principle that the government will not discriminate on the basis of faith would be gone. And the banned religious people would just lie about their beliefs and continue to participate anyways unless we went to more draconian measures (which are an even more obvious violation of the ideals that we'd like to believe that we have).

I think you recognize this, after all you've said that there's absolutely no way to expect this. Mike obviously doesn't, and when he fails to understand something this basic, there are literally no grounds for communication.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #189,937

1/12/05 1:14:00 PM

I understand your point.

But it wasn't ever my point. I raised the question - is democracy a good idea when the majority of people who vote are bent on (or at least looking forward to) the destruction of life on the planet? Clearly, I think, from the viewpoint of everyone living outside said environment - and the minority of rational minds within that environment even, democracy is not a good idea, especially when said environment has the tools to actually end life on the planet.

The non-existent, idealized version of American Democracy you are so enamored of requires an educated, tolerant people in order to produce enlightened leadership. What passes for democracy in this country has clearly not yielded enlightened leadership. So where is the problem? I'd argue that the idealized version of American Democracy you speak of will never come to exist because the voting majority of the American People will never be educated or tolerant. Further, to my way of thinking, the rise of fundamentalist Christianity and its influence over our governance guarantees that the voting majority here will forever remain uneducated, egotistical, intolerant and yes, dangerous.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,959

1/12/05 4:59:44 PM

Mike, listen to yourself.

I once conceded an argument when I relized I was about to defend the internment of Japanese Americans during WW-2. I think you're way past the point where it's better to re-read your posts and re-consider your premises.

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,980

1/12/05 9:03:04 PM

Sorry.

I re-read everything I wrote and stand by it. I'm also not going to post here anymore in deference to right-shift issues, which I, myself, am beginning to have trouble with. Ashton's post in the other forum is a nice summary (and I think perhaps less inflamatory) of what I intended to posit. ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,970

by Ashton

1/12/05 6:45:12 PM

Moving on ---> to metaphysics and The non-Spotless Mind (new thread)

Created as new thread #189969 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189969|Moving on ---> to metaphysics and The non-Spotless Mind]

The common condition of things that did not happen is that you cannot disprove them.
Anon.

Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both.
- James Madison

As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more
and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and
glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire
at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
H.L. Mencken

Post #189,645

by daemon

1/10/05 6:22:20 PM

he is a neoconn, just a little left of them thats all :-)

Post #189,654

1/10/05 7:11:37 PM

It's a ring thing

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,663

1/10/05 8:51:42 PM

I am not a Bolshevik!

Although Bolshevism is starting to make more and more sense to me these days ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,669

by daemon

1/10/05 9:07:13 PM

bolshevits maybe?

more collectivist with less violence?
:-)
regards,
daemon

Post #189,670

1/10/05 9:08:47 PM

Sign me up ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,590

1/10/05 12:12:57 PM

Banned how?

Any law to do it would violate the Constitution.\r\n\r\nI can't imagine a way to write a constitutional amendment to do it that I would suppport. Besides, in a democracy trying to solve political problems by applying courts generates backlash. Liberals made that mistake in the 70s, and are still paying the price for it.\r\n\r\nCheers,\r\nBen

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #189,593

1/10/05 12:16:08 PM

Executed as illegal combatants, perhaps? </sarcasm>

Constitution? Wazzat? We still got one of those? Why? All we really need is the New Testament, King James version. It has all the answers.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,604

1/10/05 1:27:19 PM

Nope, all we need is Das Kapital

It's just as thick, too.

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,607

1/10/05 1:29:18 PM

Nope. What is to be done? ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,606

1/10/05 1:28:13 PM

Banned in mmofitt's dreams

There is no way to do it in the US, certainly not at the moment.

--

- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Post #189,608

1/10/05 1:30:20 PM

Indeed. More is the pity. :-(

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

Post #189,521

1/9/05 8:11:57 PM

Just to clarify.

That last quote in my post wasn't a Kerry quote. It was a quote of standard Catholic doctrine (from the 6th century). I haven't heard Kerry comment one way or another on it.

Kerry, with his pro-choice record, clearly does not adhere to his Catholic religious dogma as much as Dubya does.

I think that he's personally as devout as Bush, or maybe moreso. He has voted against the Catholic dogma, but I think he's personally troubled about abortion. He's tried to finess it. [link|http://www.issues2000.org/Social/John_Kerry_Abortion.htm|E.g.]:

Q: If the voter asked for reassurance that his or her tax dollars would not go to support abortion, what would you say to that person?

A: I cannot tell you how deeply I respect the belief about life and when it begins. I'm a Catholic. Raised a Catholic I was an altar boy. Religion has been a huge part of my life. Helped lead me through a war. Leads me today. I can't take what is an article of faith for me and legislate it for someone who doesn't share that article of faith. But I can counsel people. I can talk reasonably about life and about responsibility. But as a president, I have to represent all the people in the nation and I have to make that judgment. You can take that position and not be pro-abortion, but you have to afford people their constitutional rights. And that means being smart about allowing people to be fully educated, to know what their options are in life, and making certain that you don't deny a poor person the right to be able to have whatever the Constitution affords them.

Source: Second Bush-Kerry Debate, in St. Louis MO Oct 8, 2004

His can't-legislate-morality is a bit of a cop-out. The government legislates morality all the time. He ends up with the right result, in my opinion, but his bringing his Catholic upbringing into it weakens his argument rather than strengthening it (as Catholic doctrine is strongly anti-abortion).

How does that stack up againts Bush's professed beliefs? Compare the above with Bush's [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/08/20010809-2.html|triangulating] about federal stem-cell research funding. If he really believed that "life begins at conception" and had that belief as an iron-clad guide to governing, he wouldn't have allowed federal funding even under those limited circumstances (after all, children/fetuses/embryos died to make those cell-lines possible).

In each case, they voted or acted against a simple reading of their professed beliefs, IMO.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #189,332

by lincoln

1/7/05 4:46:17 PM

No link from me but

A while back on AM talkradio I heard a mention that Dubya has gone to church a lot less than either his daddy or Clinton did when they were in the Oval Office.

lincoln
"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]

Post #189,169