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New Because..
..like seemingly all modern people, they insist on aggrandizing their work and making it inaccessible to laypeople. Thus, the simple distinction between a theory of origins and a description of a statistical process based on simple, verifiable genetics, goes unstated and misunderstood.

The post-modern narcissist's mind is concerned only with its own image, not with the transmission of information. Biologists are just as guilty as anyone. Furthermore, lacking mathematical insight, they are far too prone to mistake correlation for causality.



-drl
New Evidence?
Bein’ a proper scientist and all, you’ll be prepared to back up all those assertions with scads of hard, virtuous evidence, won’t you?


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
New Look on any creationism site
Here, I'll help you:

[link|http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&q=biologists+speak+on+evolution|http://www.google.co...peak+on+evolution]

Or here, a popularizer of biology:

[link|http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Stephen_Jay_Gould/|http://www.quotation...tephen_Jay_Gould/]

How about this, the thing people REALLY fear, something scientists seem unwilling to vehemently oppose on moral grounds alone:

[link|http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/November-December-2003/review_larson_novdec03.html|http://www.legalaffa...son_novdec03.html]

Here's a physicist with no clue about physics OR biology:

[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0192861980/qid=1100020722/sr=8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/102-2176562-1700167?v=glance&s=books&n=507846|http://www.amazon.co...&s=books&n=507846]

Hey, you could mosey down to the corner bookstore and look in the biology section. Here!

[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521841143/qid=1100020864/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/102-2176562-1700167?v=glance&s=books|http://www.amazon.co...?v=glance&s=books]

[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679642889/qid=1100020971/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-2176562-1700167|http://www.amazon.co...2-2176562-1700167]

[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520240669/qid=1100021057/sr=1-22/ref=sr_1_22/102-2176562-1700167?v=glance&s=books|http://www.amazon.co...?v=glance&s=books]

The list is endless. It's all self-indulgent BS. Why should biology escape the pernicious influence of narcissistic post-modernism?
-drl
New *wave*wave*
I said EVIDENCE.

"Some biologists wrote some books" is not EVIDENCE.


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
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New What do you want, direct quotes?
I'm at work, not the library.

The preening narcissism of society oozes out of every festering aspect of this modern world. Again - why should biology escape the trend?

"Be all that you can be - and more!"

I realize of course that what you want is *nothing*. As a fully qualified lover of this BS world, you're just being a pill for the hell of it. You couldn't care less if I supplied you with mountains of "evidence" - because what you *don't* want, what you and all your watchfully eyed brothers and sisters *don't* want, is a judgment. My *judgment* is that biologists have failed to point out the obvious - natural selection is a *theory*, with testable consequences, while "evolution" as such doesn't exist - there is no way of knowing at this time how organizations of amino acids leading to proteins emerged from some hypothetical chemical brew posited by a comet, or space aliens, or whatever, so to talk of origins is nothing but speculation. It's - gasp! - religion with another God, the one looking back from the mirror.


-drl
Expand Edited by deSitter Nov. 9, 2004, 12:44:38 PM EST
New You made the unsupportable assertion.
You sort it out.

All this handwaving and personal attacking of me doesn't alter the fact that on this particular point, all you have is sweet fuck all.



Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
New Ah right
Anything that Ross doesn't understand doesn't matter. And anyone who cares about such obscurities deserves his contempt.

News flash: there is a lot more to biology than a simple capsule statement of what evolution is, and what different aspects are captured in Darwin's theory of Evolution.

Perhaps if you had the perspective to understand why it is OK that most of the world cares so little about your corner of physics, you'd understand why your lack of caring about biology does not mean that biologists should not pursue the subject and care about it.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Re: Ah right
Particular results in biology, and the methods of biologists, are *irrelevant* to the simple distinction between and acutal *theory* and a *model*. *Both* sides of the "evolution vs. creationism" story are wrong, in the same way - they confuse a description for a predictive framework. Thus religion has no predictive value, and neither does "evolution", while *natural selection* certainly does.

Since this is so simple as to be trivial, the question becomes *why* is something so simple, so universally misunderstood. THAT is a failure of biologists in particular, and the entire culture of science in general.

Yours of course is the dilettante's choice - to maintain the fake richness of theoretical ideas for the purpose of making a more satisfying reflection of yourself. Had you ever actually *worked* on a real scientific project, you might understand this.
-drl
New As you know, math is not a science
So the fact that I did real math doesn't matter. Nor do my publications.

However I've also watched my wife go through working on real science. And my comments still stand.

Oh right. Her publications are in biology. So that isn't real science in your world. In which case you can say anything you want and win because it is accepted by the highest authority that you know - yourself!

In which case attempts at conversation are useless. So I'll cease to bother.

Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Unstated and misunderstood by whom?
Certainly not by the biologists of my aquaintance!

Of course the public fails to understand. But for the most part that is because of desire not to understand combined with a small levening of people who'll gladly give plausible-sounding reasons to misunderstand, even when they know that they are being very disingenuous.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Re: Because..
Hah.. connections, as [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521841143/qid=1100020864/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/102-2176562-1700167?v=glance&s=books| this Mayr book] -- with an "others liked.." ref to a Richard Dawkins screed.

Apropos.. enroute tonight, heard Krasny talking to John Searle about his book, Mind - A brief introduction. With Qs from e-mail and phone -- a nice excoriation of Dawkins and other (my words) - linear, plodding thinkers about simplistic pairs of opposites. Searle sped through Descartes, on through "the Hs" - Huxley, Hegel and the other Germans. He paused to admire David Hume's towering intellect (while disagreeing also with his simplistic "query into whether there was a Self 'inside there'").

As always, I find your reductio of origins? of the current drunkards-walk of pseudo-science like String 'Theory' + the stuff in your links .. as being about either feminism or narcissism -- still pretty effete, and for obv reasons:

Masc/fem have no palpable [referents]; the putative traits are found across gender - and the concepts themselves are muddied and muddled by various people reinventing [referents] to suit publishers pandering to pop fads. There is a presumption of a 'polarity' when what we have -by inspection- is a continuum; merely the start of the confusions. 'Analog' is NOT just a form of digital-think, but with fewer digits-of-precision!
(Did I mention - your people-model sucks? .. but at least it's ~~ harsh enough ;-)

Searle is working from some (defined) usage of the ideas, Observer-dependent / Observer-independent as he attempts to relate mind, language and do an arabesque around the above turgid philosopher list. I can't summarize here an impressive pithiness expressed over an hour.. in approaching consciousness, attention, focus.. and even that 'mindfulness' via which an aim can be sustained, "a promise can be made" [by What? 'Inside'?]. No String-theorist he.

Am almost tempted to buy his book.. maybe because we seem to agree ~ on what is mostly irrelevant and what is Important in properly weighting the rampant (Western) ignorance of basic metaphysics -- in any effort to understand 'our consciousness'.

At least begin-to -- and then put the final nail in the coffin of the distractive AI-droids of the sort who imagine that 10010101 crap may/shall! ~ one day create a functioning conscious 'entity' - yada yada. The mechano-Man Disney dream of many.

In brief then, I see this confusion as part & parcel of the 'evolution' chestnut above + the current dysfunction of that huge majority who have no idea what a theory Is (for!)

This election demonstrates, QED: the primitive level of metaphysical balderdash which is the fundie basis for having voted really.. for Armageddon: The Wholly-owned Disneyland/DOD Reality Show for frightened sheep, immersed in inculcated Puritan guilt. But still: wanting to be at the-side-of the fantasy Numero Uno, watchin the suckers 'down below' gettin boiled in oil. Pure reptile brains at their nastiest ... by the millions!

The defects then, are quite larger than silliness about masc/feminine 'traits', or even deeply inculcated ignorance of "what a theory might be" and what the 'scientific method' is: it is a murdering of language, such as inhibits ever finding out (or wishing-to, again) even these two concepts; never mind.. the really Difficult stuff, which would need real labor, sustained over time.

So OK - we agree on the result: We're Fucked, either for an extended period or permanently [nukes eat up any self-correction time]. But not because of male-female games: because of a reverence for 'comfort' / ez mindless superstition over enquiry / and a choice of juvenile Neediness
(Shrub Will Take Care of Us) over - deciding to do the ever-delayed work of growing-up.

I'll ~ go along pretty-much with
..like seemingly all modern people, they insist on aggrandizing their work and making it inaccessible to laypeople. Thus, the simple distinction between a theory of origins and a description of a statistical process based on simple, verifiable genetics, goes unstated and misunderstood.

The post-modern narcissist's mind is concerned only with its own image, not with the transmission of information. Biologists are just as guilty as anyone. Furthermore, lacking mathematical insight, they are far too prone to mistake correlation for causality.
- except that 'narcissism' of that degree implies a waning of [1]consciousness, and over a relatively short time-span: visible within our young-lives, yet..


Epitaph [?] Peter Pan pipsqueaks
(Screw the glandular show; it's a Red Herring.)


my 3 kopeks


[1] ie. A devolution has occurred / Dumbth has occurred (?) in general self-knowledge; inability to even limn the means to that acquisition -- and the ennui we see all around, all implying a certain 'trampish-state': not wishing even to try | just seek mindless diversion Neat as in, undiluted with periods of honest Work.

[Bizness ritual epitomizes! "the useless task" - imposed as daily reinforcement of the Managing Class over serfs-in-cells. It's about Power! not Sex - that other part-time soporific mass-control-aid..]
     Creationism on the March - (tuberculosis) - (22)
         nope - (daemon)
         "Evolution theory not fact" - (deSitter) - (20)
             National Geographic: Was Darwin Wrong? - (Another Scott) - (5)
                 Re: National Geographic: Was Darwin Wrong? - (deSitter) - (4)
                     Cuz den dey'd have no babysitter! duh! -NT - (imric)
                     I assume you're arguing with this from the NG article. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                         Exactly - (deSitter)
                         Theory is wrong word - (tuberculosis)
             How have the biologists been obscure? -NT - (ben_tilly) - (11)
                 Because.. - (deSitter) - (10)
                     Evidence? - (pwhysall) - (7)
                         Look on any creationism site - (deSitter) - (6)
                             *wave*wave* - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                 What do you want, direct quotes? - (deSitter) - (1)
                                     You made the unsupportable assertion. - (pwhysall)
                             Ah right - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                 Re: Ah right - (deSitter) - (1)
                                     As you know, math is not a science - (ben_tilly)
                     Unstated and misunderstood by whom? - (ben_tilly)
                     Re: Because.. - (Ashton)
             Vox populi - (rcareaga) - (1)
                 Those figures don't match what I've heard - (ben_tilly)

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