Post #183,647
11/8/04 10:00:25 PM
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Creationism on the March
[link|http://edition.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/11/06/evolution.schools.ap/index.html|http://edition.cnn.c...ols.ap/index.html]
Members of Grantsburg's school board believed that a state law governing the teaching of evolution was too restrictive. The science curriculum "should not be totally inclusive of just one scientific theory," said Joni Burgin, superintendent of the district of 1,000 students in northwest Wisconsin.
Last month, when the board examined its science curriculum, language was added calling for "various models/theories" of origin to be incorporated. -------- I think this just doesn't go far enough. We need more alternative viewpoints.
For instance, I think the math classes should be exposed to the Enron model. Field theory is lame too. I'd like to see physics students exposed to world suckage as an alternative theory to gravity. It makes about as much sense. Oh, and why can't we teach bulimia as an alternative to phys ed? That's an alternative theory of fitness.
Evangelical Christians wonder why they are viewed as pariahs? Because they are pushy and willfully ignorant besides.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #183,662
11/8/04 11:25:17 PM
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nope
Lucy is yer grannma, dont like it appeal to the new god "mother nature" she will ensure that you die of second hand ciggarette smoke if you dont pray at her alter. nuff sayeed, daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
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Post #183,701
11/9/04 4:00:27 AM
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"Evolution theory not fact"
Required in Cobb Co. GA books.
Of course, the entire sentence shows a basic misunderstanding of science, and what a theory is, what the word means. But you know that.
I blame the biologists for being obscure. In their own way, they're as useless as modern physicists.
-drl
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Post #183,709
11/9/04 7:33:13 AM
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National Geographic: Was Darwin Wrong?
[image|http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0411/feature1/images/ft_hdr.1.jpg|0|Pretty birdy|370|545]
[link|http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0411/feature1/index.html|NO].
He was correct in general. It's well past time for this question to be put to bed.
Cheers, Scott.
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Post #183,717
11/9/04 8:48:30 AM
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Re: National Geographic: Was Darwin Wrong?
Evolution is not a "theory" of origins. It's a *description of the process of inheritance of genetic traits*. The morons who place these messages in books are not only too idiotic to understand evolution, they don't even understand what science is *period*.
If they are so concerned about filling their kids' heads with lies, why don't they just take their cross-eyed little bastards out of school?
-drl
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Post #183,734
11/9/04 9:17:50 AM
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Cuz den dey'd have no babysitter! duh!
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #183,774
11/9/04 12:53:18 PM
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I assume you're arguing with this from the NG article.
Evolution by natural selection, the central concept of the life's work of Charles Darwin, is a theory. It's a theory about the origin of adaptation, complexity, and diversity among Earth's living creatures. If you are skeptical by nature, unfamiliar with the terminology of science, and unaware of the overwhelming evidence, you might even be tempted to say that it's "just" a theory. In the same sense, relativity as described by Albert Einstein is "just" a theory. The notion that Earth orbits around the sun rather than vice versa, offered by Copernicus in 1543, is a theory. Continental drift is a theory. The existence, structure, and dynamics of atoms? Atomic theory. Even electricity is a theoretical construct, involving electrons, which are tiny units of charged mass that no one has ever seen. Each of these theories is an explanation that has been confirmed to such a degree, by observation and experiment, that knowledgeable experts accept it as fact. That's what scientists mean when they talk about a theory: not a dreamy and unreliable speculation, but an explanatory statement that fits the evidence. They embrace such an explanation confidently but provisionally\ufffdtaking it as their best available view of reality, at least until some severely conflicting data or some better explanation might come along. It seems to me that he's saying what you think he should say. He's not saying it's a theory of origins of life but rather of how change happens to species. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #183,784
11/9/04 1:32:28 PM
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Exactly
To make an analogous point - Aristotle had a "model" of gravity - that heavy things "sought their natural place". This of course is not a theory - it's a description of Aristotle's conception of "heaviness". Newton on the other hand, had "gravity by instantaneous action at a distance compatible with the general laws of motion I set down heretofore".
-drl
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Post #183,906
11/12/04 12:08:04 AM
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Theory is wrong word
At this point, natural selection is an observable process. We can watch it happen. We have known cases. We can perform experiments that clearly demonstrate the mechanism. Its not a theory. Its a documented mechanism.
Creationism, OTOH, is a fairy tale with no evidence to back it up other than the book in which the fairy tale is written.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #183,756
11/9/04 11:40:18 AM
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How have the biologists been obscure?
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #183,760
11/9/04 12:02:30 PM
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Because..
..like seemingly all modern people, they insist on aggrandizing their work and making it inaccessible to laypeople. Thus, the simple distinction between a theory of origins and a description of a statistical process based on simple, verifiable genetics, goes unstated and misunderstood.
The post-modern narcissist's mind is concerned only with its own image, not with the transmission of information. Biologists are just as guilty as anyone. Furthermore, lacking mathematical insight, they are far too prone to mistake correlation for causality.
-drl
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Post #183,762
11/9/04 12:09:58 PM
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Evidence?
Bein’ a proper scientist and all, you’ll be prepared to back up all those assertions with scads of hard, virtuous evidence, won’t you?
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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Post #183,769
11/9/04 12:24:47 PM
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Look on any creationism site
Here, I'll help you:
[link|http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&q=biologists+speak+on+evolution|http://www.google.co...peak+on+evolution]
Or here, a popularizer of biology:
[link|http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Stephen_Jay_Gould/|http://www.quotation...tephen_Jay_Gould/]
How about this, the thing people REALLY fear, something scientists seem unwilling to vehemently oppose on moral grounds alone:
[link|http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/November-December-2003/review_larson_novdec03.html|http://www.legalaffa...son_novdec03.html]
Here's a physicist with no clue about physics OR biology:
[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0192861980/qid=1100020722/sr=8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/102-2176562-1700167?v=glance&s=books&n=507846|http://www.amazon.co...&s=books&n=507846]
Hey, you could mosey down to the corner bookstore and look in the biology section. Here!
[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521841143/qid=1100020864/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/102-2176562-1700167?v=glance&s=books|http://www.amazon.co...?v=glance&s=books]
[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679642889/qid=1100020971/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-2176562-1700167|http://www.amazon.co...2-2176562-1700167]
[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520240669/qid=1100021057/sr=1-22/ref=sr_1_22/102-2176562-1700167?v=glance&s=books|http://www.amazon.co...?v=glance&s=books]
The list is endless. It's all self-indulgent BS. Why should biology escape the pernicious influence of narcissistic post-modernism?
-drl
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Post #183,770
11/9/04 12:34:10 PM
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*wave*wave*
I said EVIDENCE.
"Some biologists wrote some books" is not EVIDENCE.
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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Post #183,771
11/9/04 12:38:28 PM
11/9/04 12:44:38 PM
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What do you want, direct quotes?
I'm at work, not the library.
The preening narcissism of society oozes out of every festering aspect of this modern world. Again - why should biology escape the trend?
"Be all that you can be - and more!"
I realize of course that what you want is *nothing*. As a fully qualified lover of this BS world, you're just being a pill for the hell of it. You couldn't care less if I supplied you with mountains of "evidence" - because what you *don't* want, what you and all your watchfully eyed brothers and sisters *don't* want, is a judgment. My *judgment* is that biologists have failed to point out the obvious - natural selection is a *theory*, with testable consequences, while "evolution" as such doesn't exist - there is no way of knowing at this time how organizations of amino acids leading to proteins emerged from some hypothetical chemical brew posited by a comet, or space aliens, or whatever, so to talk of origins is nothing but speculation. It's - gasp! - religion with another God, the one looking back from the mirror.
-drl
Edited by deSitter
Nov. 9, 2004, 12:44:38 PM EST
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Post #183,775
11/9/04 12:54:20 PM
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You made the unsupportable assertion.
You sort it out.
All this handwaving and personal attacking of me doesn't alter the fact that on this particular point, all you have is sweet fuck all.
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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Post #183,776
11/9/04 12:56:54 PM
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Ah right
Anything that Ross doesn't understand doesn't matter. And anyone who cares about such obscurities deserves his contempt.
News flash: there is a lot more to biology than a simple capsule statement of what evolution is, and what different aspects are captured in Darwin's theory of Evolution.
Perhaps if you had the perspective to understand why it is OK that most of the world cares so little about your corner of physics, you'd understand why your lack of caring about biology does not mean that biologists should not pursue the subject and care about it.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #183,782
11/9/04 1:27:39 PM
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Re: Ah right
Particular results in biology, and the methods of biologists, are *irrelevant* to the simple distinction between and acutal *theory* and a *model*. *Both* sides of the "evolution vs. creationism" story are wrong, in the same way - they confuse a description for a predictive framework. Thus religion has no predictive value, and neither does "evolution", while *natural selection* certainly does.
Since this is so simple as to be trivial, the question becomes *why* is something so simple, so universally misunderstood. THAT is a failure of biologists in particular, and the entire culture of science in general.
Yours of course is the dilettante's choice - to maintain the fake richness of theoretical ideas for the purpose of making a more satisfying reflection of yourself. Had you ever actually *worked* on a real scientific project, you might understand this.
-drl
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Post #183,788
11/9/04 2:47:51 PM
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As you know, math is not a science
So the fact that I did real math doesn't matter. Nor do my publications.
However I've also watched my wife go through working on real science. And my comments still stand.
Oh right. Her publications are in biology. So that isn't real science in your world. In which case you can say anything you want and win because it is accepted by the highest authority that you know - yourself!
In which case attempts at conversation are useless. So I'll cease to bother.
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #183,772
11/9/04 12:39:53 PM
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Unstated and misunderstood by whom?
Certainly not by the biologists of my aquaintance!
Of course the public fails to understand. But for the most part that is because of desire not to understand combined with a small levening of people who'll gladly give plausible-sounding reasons to misunderstand, even when they know that they are being very disingenuous.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #183,872
11/11/04 7:55:56 AM
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Re: Because..
Hah.. connections, as [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521841143/qid=1100020864/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/102-2176562-1700167?v=glance&s=books| this Mayr book] -- with an "others liked.." ref to a Richard Dawkins screed. Apropos.. enroute tonight, heard Krasny talking to John Searle about his book, Mind - A brief introduction. With Qs from e-mail and phone -- a nice excoriation of Dawkins and other (my words) - linear, plodding thinkers about simplistic pairs of opposites. Searle sped through Descartes, on through "the Hs" - Huxley, Hegel and the other Germans. He paused to admire David Hume's towering intellect (while disagreeing also with his simplistic "query into whether there was a Self 'inside there'"). As always, I find your reductio of origins? of the current drunkards-walk of pseudo-science like String 'Theory' + the stuff in your links .. as being about either feminism or narcissism -- still pretty effete, and for obv reasons: Masc/fem have no palpable [referents]; the putative traits are found across gender - and the concepts themselves are muddied and muddled by various people reinventing [referents] to suit publishers pandering to pop fads. There is a presumption of a 'polarity' when what we have -by inspection- is a continuum; merely the start of the confusions. 'Analog' is NOT just a form of digital-think, but with fewer digits-of-precision! (Did I mention - your people-model sucks? .. but at least it's ~~ harsh enough ;-) Searle is working from some (defined) usage of the ideas, Observer-dependent / Observer-independent as he attempts to relate mind, language and do an arabesque around the above turgid philosopher list. I can't summarize here an impressive pithiness expressed over an hour.. in approaching consciousness, attention, focus.. and even that 'mindfulness' via which an aim can be sustained, "a promise can be made" [by What? 'Inside'?]. No String-theorist he. Am almost tempted to buy his book.. maybe because we seem to agree ~ on what is mostly irrelevant and what is Important in properly weighting the rampant (Western) ignorance of basic metaphysics -- in any effort to understand 'our consciousness'. At least begin-to -- and then put the final nail in the coffin of the distractive AI-droids of the sort who imagine that 10010101 crap may/shall! ~ one day create a functioning conscious 'entity' - yada yada. The mechano-Man Disney dream of many. In brief then, I see this confusion as part & parcel of the 'evolution' chestnut above + the current dysfunction of that huge majority who have no idea what a theory Is (for!) This election demonstrates, QED: the primitive level of metaphysical balderdash which is the fundie basis for having voted really.. for Armageddon: The Wholly-owned Disneyland/DOD Reality Show for frightened sheep, immersed in inculcated Puritan guilt. But still: wanting to be at the-side-of the fantasy Numero Uno, watchin the suckers 'down below' gettin boiled in oil. Pure reptile brains at their nastiest ... by the millions! The defects then, are quite larger than silliness about masc/feminine 'traits', or even deeply inculcated ignorance of "what a theory might be" and what the 'scientific method' is: it is a murdering of language, such as inhibits ever finding out (or wishing-to, again) even these two concepts; never mind.. the really Difficult stuff, which would need real labor, sustained over time. So OK - we agree on the result: We're Fucked, either for an extended period or permanently [nukes eat up any self-correction time]. But not because of male-female games: because of a reverence for 'comfort' / ez mindless superstition over enquiry / and a choice of juvenile Neediness (Shrub Will Take Care of Us) over - deciding to do the ever-delayed work of growing-up. I'll ~ go along pretty-much with ..like seemingly all modern people, they insist on aggrandizing their work and making it inaccessible to laypeople. Thus, the simple distinction between a theory of origins and a description of a statistical process based on simple, verifiable genetics, goes unstated and misunderstood.
The post-modern narcissist's mind is concerned only with its own image, not with the transmission of information. Biologists are just as guilty as anyone. Furthermore, lacking mathematical insight, they are far too prone to mistake correlation for causality.
- except that 'narcissism' of that degree implies a waning of [1]consciousness, and over a relatively short time-span: visible within our young-lives, yet.. Epitaph [?] Peter Pan pipsqueaks (Screw the glandular show; it's a Red Herring.) my 3 kopeks [1] ie. A devolution has occurred / Dumbth has occurred (?) in general self-knowledge; inability to even limn the means to that acquisition -- and the ennui we see all around, all implying a certain 'trampish-state': not wishing even to try | just seek mindless diversion Neat as in, undiluted with periods of honest Work.[Bizness ritual epitomizes! "the useless task" - imposed as daily reinforcement of the Managing Class over serfs-in-cells. It's about Power! not Sex - that other part-time soporific mass-control-aid..]
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Post #183,768
11/9/04 12:24:02 PM
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Vox populi
A short piece on this subject in the SF Chronicle today includes a helpful pie chart. According to a Gallup survey of 1016 "adults" conducted in February 2001, 48% of respondents believe in the creationist model and another 9% lean that way. 28% embrace the "theory* of evolution," with another 5% apparently disposed to consider it, and a full 10% ventured no opinion on the subject.
cordially,
_____________________
*Yeah, and I have a "theory" that the sun occupies different positions in the sky at different times during the day. No, ye yokel 57%, that's not a theory, it's an observable phenomenon. Half a millenium ago there was a great dustup over whether a geocentric or a heliocentric model better accounted for the apparent movement of the sun. [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=111974|Galileo] lost that round, but Eppur si muove and all that, suckers.
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #183,777
11/9/04 1:03:29 PM
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Those figures don't match what I've heard
[link|http://www.newhumanist.org.uk/volume117issue4_more.php?id=193_0_9_0_C|http://www.newhumani...hp?id=193_0_9_0_C] gives a different breakdown from Gallup's survey on this question over the years.
In 2001, 45% of the American public believed that, God created people in present form within last 10,000 years. 37% believe that Evolution occurred over millions of years guided by God. Only 12% believe that Evolution occurred with no interference by God. And 9% don't know.
So only 12% believe in the standard scientific theory. 37% believe in some adaptation of that. And the other half the country doesn't believe in any variation of what science has overwhelmingly accepted for most of a century.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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