Evidently not

Post #18,216 by Silverlock 11/14/01 8:39:16 AM Reply	Evidently not I keep replying to your trolliing. How to mangle the truth; Have it reported by any major U.S. media outlet.
Post #18,231 by screamer 11/14/01 10:14:59 AM Reply	I'm not done with you yet. And yes, I am trolling. And I perceive it as a reply to your troll about As(s)croft and "students" and other vacuous comments paid for and contributed by the left... LOOKY HERE... You are in the War On Terrorism forum. You come out railing about your Chicken Licken fear about the Fourth Amendment. I point out that the Constitution (or more specifically, the Bill of Rights) is not a static document. That it has been, is and will be open to interpretation. I don't ask you where the hell you've been hiding your head through the last twenty years during the erosion of same Ammendment by our "War on Drugs" or the erosion of perceived civil rights with our wars on Poverty, Smoking, etc... It just seemed to me that you were parroting some talk show host (Bill Maher, maybe?) with his condescending left wing crap... What I have seen is a consistent pattern from your posts to put out some kind of agenda that I've seen before. I am willing to listen if you will throw something substantive on the table. NOW... The sight you posted is interesting and yes, rhetoric must appeal to ethos, pathos, logos, something... And logic should be, well, logical. What I fail to see is what specific fallacy are you pointing out in my post that would do anything to deter from my main point which is that the Constitution is not nor has ever been a static document... This was important for me to establish to try to ascertain why you are now so upset with this current (perceived) assault. Instead, you chose to hide behind some childish (condescending, too) duck with your "fallacy" post and link... So, maybe your not a paid shill for the Democratic Party, and maybe we just got off on the wrong foot... I ask you again, what is your major concern with this particular erosion of the Fourth Amendment? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #18,236 by screamer 11/14/01 10:37:29 AM Reply	One more thing... What is the TRUTH? You keep accusing me of "mangling" it. What is the truth? And just what exactly makes you believe that you have some magical path to it that I don't? Could it be that maybe you THINK you know the "truth" about whatever it is your think you know the "truth" about, but I THINK you may be wrong... Or do you consider things like that in "truthworld"? If the "truth" means that the current administration is further eroding the Fourth Ammendment because of the current fear of terrorism, then I think there is no argument. If you think the "truth" is that this only happens when Repos are in charge (which you imply), then, I THINK you are incorrect... Which is what I've been trying to point out. If you think the "truth" is that you can do anything constructive ABOUT it, by a juvenile mispelling of Ashcroft's name and calling the President by an initial,etc.. on an INET forum and parroting some Democratic mindspeak... well, then maybe, just maybe you'd be barking up the wrong tree as well. Which again, I suggested to you in the "if your so smart..." remark. And if the truth is that in "truthworld" noone ever calls anyone out to question, then welcome to America and the Internet... This is where I am coming from... Have I clearly identified why I am screaming at you? Maybe I'm too sensitive? Yeah... Right... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #18,247 by Silverlock 11/14/01 11:27:24 AM Reply	Ok, I'll explain As far as your comment re. "mangling the truth". Not directed at you at all. It's part of my sig. On to my comments regarding the constitution. The term "gutting" is, I admit, an exageration. But not much of one. The fallacy I refer to is false analogy, goes like this- Person A does a very bad thing. I point out that person A has done a very bad thing Person B does a somewhat bad thing you deny the thing done by person A is very bad by pointing out that person B has done the somewhat bad thing. Let alone the relative severity of the bad things done, how does the actions of another excuse the actions of the first? Following that logic could lead to things like, "You can't put me in jail for murder your Honor because you failed to put that person in jail for theft." Now, you may not think that that the recent actions of McCongress and Asscroft (Yeah it's juvenile, so what? I'm insulting them, not you) are any more significant than other actions taken in the past. I do think these are significant. There you go. My last attempt at civility with you. The ball is in your court. How to mangle the truth; Have it reported by any major U.S. media outlet.
Post #18,260 by screamer 11/14/01 12:41:33 PM Reply	We're getting there... Sorry about the noise about the sig... I've had major problems with sigs myself... I'm all for civility as well. I am glad that you have admitted that your initial post had some exagerration. As well, I felt that the "tone" (implying that our current government hates freedom worse than the Taliban - is a slight exagerration as well :-) )... All water under the proverbial bridge now. Now, I'll admit that I "loaded" statements in my following posts. I was intending to first take apart the rhetoric, then lead to the meat, which is entirely important. I failed miserably... such is life. Getting back to the Fourth Amendment, I absolutely agree with your premise that it is being "challenged" again with the current crop o' politicos... I just felt it necessary to point out that we truly have been through this kind of "law by reaction" in the past and when cooler heads prevail, then the changes are rescinded. That is my hope in any event. I have been railing long and hard about the protection of the Bill of Rights and how it has been "stretched", beginning with the sixties (probably before that, but I wasn't around then!). The creation of agencies with legislative and oversight power (never a part of the Constitution). The legal system with too many laws, lawyers and not enough sense to dispense common justice... I could go on :-) What is important to keep in mind is that people in this country truly are scared, liberals and conservatives alike. Noone (most probably) could have conceived of commercial jets being flown into the World Trade Center or the ramifications that it would have on Arabs, suspected terrorists, etc... It stands to reason, IMHO, that doing nothing is NOT better than attempting to find these types of folks. It does require a tradeoff. How far we are willing to trade our privacy for security is a matter to be played out. I honestly didn't think that our government would "stretch" the Fourth (and Fifth for that matter) as much as it did fighting the "war on drugs"... It did. So there is plenty of reason for our concern. We added a new agency for Homeland Security... That got the hairs on the back of my liberal neck standing straight up... Hell, these guys and we the people are all "winging it" right now. There is no precedent for the current scenario saving the old Peter Sellers "Mouse that Roared" movie. But then, they didn't really attack anything... For what it's worth, I am very concerned about our Fourth Amendment rights (as I understand them) and took offense (rightly or wrongly) by how I feel they are being "politicized" currently. Whenever issues become politicized, there is also a tendency for them to become marginalized as well. I feel they are too important to become just another blip on the American commercial network... Perhaps what we, the concerned citizenry, should be asking for is that any modifications to the Bill during wartime are up for immediate review as soon as the crisis is passed? Then we can clearly scrutinize how badly we've jeopardized individual liberties. In other words, I like what you're saying, but I don't like how you're saying it... Critics voice, take your choice... You have no problem with me. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #18,267 by Silverlock 11/14/01 1:11:15 PM Reply	Refreshing I just love it when a thread is saved from the flames. I think we aren't too far apart on this. My original point (however badly expressed) was in the nature of a logic exercise. I regret the implication that I think our gov is worse than the Taliban. However, I strongly disagree with your contention that the current inroads on civil liberties are simply more of the same that others have done in the past. I think this is much more serious. With that in mind, the point I was trying to make was, given the rhetoric of our administration regarding the aims of the terrorists, we have already lost the "war on terrorism" due to our actions in response. How to mangle the truth; Have it reported by any major U.S. media outlet.
Post #18,278 by screamer 11/14/01 2:27:46 PM Reply	Point taken... And I'm no prophet. I am guardedly optimistic that this is more of the same... We can agree to disagree on the "degree" of severity of this current power grab, and we can agree to agree that we must try to diligently guard our rights to unlawful search and seizure and due process... I'm ready to put this to rest if you are. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #18,280 by Silverlock 11/14/01 2:37:39 PM Reply	Putting it to rest. Complete agreement. (about putting it to rest. Other things? We'll see.) :-) How to mangle the truth; Have it reported by any major U.S. media outlet.
Post #18,299 by Ashton 11/14/01 4:05:20 PM Reply	PS to both. Mouse That Roared !! Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. I'd forgotten that masterpiece.. Would that 'we-all' had not: there is no finer pomposity-buster than Sellers in a good vehicle - and that one was a Ferrari Testa Rossa on nitro. The Q Bomb says it all. Nice to see Sweet Reason is alive and well at, at least zIWE. I too shall attempt next to avoid merely replying in kind to shibboleths and, if I can - point out as well: the sight of a process doomed to doggerel by M$-like initial Awful McDesign. (repeat after self the mantra.. scale and relativity, scale and relativity, scale and relativity..) Peace. We have to become accustomed (but not inured) to the Interesting Times - and remain vigilant of the BS of all the bounders, each looking for opportunities, whatever sewn-on label they sport. No? Ashton
Post #18,301 by Silverlock 11/14/01 4:33:19 PM Reply	Pomposity buster Being There. Sellers most understated role. And an absolute delight to watch. The cluelessness of the politicians/media/business leaders reacting to this "Gardner" is hilarious. The Shirly MacClaine masturbation scene is especially rich in wry humor. Highly recommended to any with an appreciation of subtlety in film. I've got to get the book to see how much is left out of the movie. How to mangle the truth; Have it reported by any major U.S. media outlet.
Post #18,310 by Ashton 11/14/01 5:02:36 PM Reply	Yes.. of Course! Timeless and entirely current Maybe more than Mouse. Everyone got to watch close-ups of most congresscritters recently - in that orchestrated Let's Get Horny Billy rewrite of The Ten Commandments Live! on color Tee Vee! Permanently ingrained: those faces, that High Dudgeon, that McSincerity! er hypocrisy dripping onto the expensive carpeting. Mr. YouthfulIndiscretionHyde presiding with requisite silver-hair and avuncular epithets. Cackle.. glorp.. One of the few videos I bought. Thanks - have to view it again soon, with a cohort. Chauncy Gardner Lives! He lives in the hearts and minds of every little girl at Christmas time.. Yes! Virginia - there IS a Chauncey Gardner !!! Ashton ain't us homo-saps a Riot!? RIP Mr. Sellers
Post #18,312 by screamer 11/14/01 5:13:28 PM Reply	Okay, Okay.... I'll bite... The Party is the ultimate in my view... Birdy num nums, birdy num nums... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #18,372 by boxley 11/14/01 10:40:35 PM Reply	nope there is a girl in my soup and dont forget leu licunce pour la mahenky thanx, bill tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"

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