Re: Any? Perhaps.

Post #174,853 by Nightowl 9/17/04 5:44:20 PM Reply	Re: Any? Perhaps. But none more lethal than religion. For it is religion alone that causes that subset to hold that they are more "God-like". Not true at all. Hitler believed he was God-Like and he wasn't praying to any Diety. He practically worshipped himself. Why do they worship? Because they are praying to the One True God and, depending on the brand of mythology, those who do not should be condemned to everlasting hellfire or be killed in the human sense. We don't feel anyone should be condemmed to hell. That's what is taught that God feels, but I don't know that all Christians/etc believe they really should be. Compare and constrast the violence in all the religious texts from Mesopotamia with something like the Tao Te Ching. Those "sacred texts" coming from Mesopotamia - every one of them - contain passages that call for the extermination of the infidels and worse. (Try to find some analog in the Tao Te Ching) Every violent act has not been religious. People hide behind religion to enact maniacal behavior, they cover themselves in God to pretend they are justified in their diabolical acts and they color their acts with faith to hide the fact that they are the only ones responsible for their actions. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #174,858 by mmoffitt 9/17/04 5:55:25 PM Reply	If a Christian does not believe anyone should be condemned.. to hell, then that Christian is the type of Christian I spoke of earlier, the type of Christian that has rejected a part of the religious manual. In this case, the part that goes.... John 17:3 "This is Eternal Life, that they know Thee, the Only True God and Messiah Whom Thou has sent." and the parts about only "those who believe" in Jesus being the only one's granted eternal life, entry into heaven, etc. ad nauseum. bcnu, Mikem "The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism." -Ted Grant
Post #174,859 by Nightowl 9/17/04 6:01:41 PM Reply	There's a difference Between a Christian being the only ones entitled to Eternal Life, and a Christian believing that people should burn in Hell. We accept that this is God's Will, but it isn't necessarily what we would have chosen for them. Unfortunately, we don't control God, so all we can do is keep ourselves from landing there. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #174,866 by jb4 9/17/04 6:24:47 PM 9/17/04 6:26:23 PM Reply	Uhhh, Owlsley... Back up just a minute here... We don't feel anyone should be condemmed to hell. That's what is taught that God feels, but I don't know that all Christians/etc believe they really should be. We'll just pass on the myriad historical counter-examples for the time being, and focus on the abstract. Exactly what do you think excommunication is? It is the severing of the individual from the Church, and thereby damning him/her for now and ever after.... So, yes, I'd say that any devout religious devotee who believes in excommunication as a viable punishment for non-piety does indeed believe in condemnation. And you can be damn sure (pun intended) that those who hold what passes for power in a religious community damn well (again, pun intended) knows it, and can and will wield it as a cudgel when it suits his (and it's always 'his') fancy. [Edit: typos, of course...] jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT Edited by jb4 Sept. 17, 2004, 06:26:23 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #174,867 by Nightowl 9/17/04 6:31:19 PM Reply	Let me clarify We don't feel anyone should be condemmed to hell. That's what is taught that God feels, but I don't know that all Christians/etc believe they really should be. The above statement refers to Christian religion, I don't mean ALL Christians, I mean the Christian Church. What other denominations feel I don't know. As I said before, we accept that this is God's choice to send them to Hell, but that doesn't mean we would have made that choice, it's God's will, not ours. We'll just pass on the myriad historical counter-examples for tyhe time being, and focus on the abstract. Exactly what do you think excommunication is? It is the severing of the individual from the Church, and thereby damning him/her for now and ever after.... Excommunication from the church is Catholic (as far as I know), and I have no idea what Catholics all do, but I don't believe they should ever be barred from the church. Maybe barred from working with children if they molested someone, but not from the church. And I don't believe that they shouldn't be allowed communion. However, I'm not a Catholic, so it doesn't matter what I think. So, yes, I'd say that any devout religious devotee who believes in excommunication as a viable punishment for non-piety does indeed believe in condemnation. And you can be damn sure (pun intended) that those who hold what passes for power in a religious community damn well (again, pun intended) knows it, and can ande will wield it as a cudgel when it suits his (and it's always 'his') fancy. I'm saying, not me. And my church has never banned anyone from attending or being there. Only exception wasn't even in our power, it was when the youth leader was found to be the head of the KKK and was involved in a crime. They fired him, but we didn't forbid him to attend, just to lead. However, he went to jail, so it he wasn't given a choice either. I wish no one had to go to Hell, I wish God could find other solutions, but since I choose to believe in Him, I am obligated to accept His will, however mystifying or confusing it might be. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #174,871 by jb4 9/17/04 6:50:19 PM Reply	Re: Let me clarify I don't mean ALL Christians, I mean the Christian Church. What other denominations feel I don't know. Well, lemeesee: We gotcher Catholick Church 'ere, then we gocher Lutherans, then the Episcopalians, and the Methodists over dere, and...Sumbuddy said sumpin' about YOUnitarians, and, oh yeah...dere's them-thar PresBeeTarians, and...Damn! Almost fergot 'bout them Baptists..... So tell me, Ms. Owlsley, which Christian church from the above list are you referring to -- or are you refering to any number of other Christian Churches that I negelected to mention (the Greek Orthodox Churches are Quite ornate, I am to understand...) ;-\ufffd Excommunication from the church is Catholic (as far as I know) Yes, and Lutheran, too, and a number of other Protestant sects also practice it. As do the Mormons (You know, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). And you certainly can get yerself run out of the Temple of your choice by the local Rabbi. (IIRC Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth did just such a thing on one memorable day....) A good test would be to propose the Christian Church in question sanctify same-sex marriages in Jesus's name, and see what the half-life of your soul in the eyes of said Church would be.... I wish no one had to go to Hell, I wish God could find other solutions, but since I choose to believe in Him, I am obligated to accept His will, however mystifying or confusing it might be. Or you could practice a religion where such rubbish is not taught. Buddahism might be a good place to start.... jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #174,904 by pwhysall 9/18/04 3:36:25 AM Reply	Not forgetting... ...the tongue-speaking, snake-handling, baptising-in-the-spirit, hellfire-and-brimstone deliverance ministry of Pentecostalism. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,183 by jb4 9/20/04 12:49:49 PM Reply	How could I forget...! Get thee to the Tent! jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #174,931 by Nightowl 9/18/04 9:56:23 AM Reply	Unfortunately (new thread) Created as new thread #174930 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=174930\|Unfortunately] "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #174,880 by Another Scott 9/17/04 7:38:14 PM Reply	On Christian churches... (new thread) Created as new thread #174879 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=174879\|On Christian churches...]

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