Post #15,858
10/31/01 10:25:23 AM
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A Jew in the Mosque.
One of these sorts of things that could be posted multiple places....
[link|http://salon.com/books/int/2001/10/30/halevi/print.html|A Jew in the Mosque]
A few quotes that I thought were compelling:
What struck me at that conference was how unrepresentative so many of the journalists were of the cultures they come from. The Israeli journalists were eating calamari and the Palestinian journalists were drinking wine. We could all be cosmopolitan together on the island of Rhodes, but as soon as we came back to the Middle East, the walls went back up again.
The kinds of sermons that are broadcast every Friday in most mosques in the Arab world, certainly in Palestine, are so full of the most extraordinary hatred that I knew there was no point for me as a Jew to come close. My journey was really to the edges of Palestinian Islam.
America misunderstood the cultural nature of the Middle East. Separation of religion and state is not only a cardinal principle in America, it's what makes America work. But you can't transfer that concept to the Middle East. There is no separation of religion and state in any of the countries. Both Judaism and Islam see religion as a total experience: For religion to be authentic, it needs to address all aspects of life.
Look, as long as Arafat is in power there will not be a Palestinian state. What's changed for centrist Israelis like myself and for many left-wing Israelis who devoted their lives to reconciliation not just with the Palestinians but with the PLO, is that we don't believe that Arafat ever intended to live in peace with Israel. The root of the deep depression that Israeli society has gone into in the last year, more than the violence, is the realization that we were fooled. We brought Arafat here. Nobody forced us to do that. People forget that. We initiated the Oslo process. We took a gamble on this guy. We armed his police. They are shooting at us with weapons that we gave them.
The terrible thing for Israelis like me who really wanted this peace to work is that the Israeli right, whom I still don't identify with, turned out to be right about the peace process.
The Palestinians crossed over into countries where they speak the same language, have the same religion -- but how they were treated from country to country is another story. The truth is that only Jordan offered them citizenship and welcomed them as brothers. In almost every other Arab country, they were deliberately kept in refugee camps, which is a scandal in itself.
When the Palestinians say that this is because of the occupation, it's a lie. Maybe they could have made that case before Oslo, when Israel was set on annexing the West Bank and absorbing it and didn't offer the Palestinians a fair deal. But to talk about Palestinian grievances after they were offered a state on nearly 100 percent of the territory, and even more obscenely, to use that fake grievance to explain Sept. 11, requires a level of chutzpah and fantasy that the Middle East should really be ashamed of. (chutzpah? :) don't know if that's a good word for that case)
I don't just admire Islam, I love Islam. But even so, even for an Israeli like me, I have zero trust, certainly in the Palestinian leadership, and also in the good sense of the Palestinian mainstream.
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Post #16,009
11/1/01 2:52:33 AM
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I guess Christian, the Jews are just whining again, right?
[link|http://www.thenewrepublic.com/110501/sullivan110501.html|Protocols]
"Vicious anti-Semitism is now the official doctrine of most Arab governments and their organs of propaganda. The official Palestinian Authority newspaper, Al-Hayat Al-Jadeeda, for example, regularly contains references to the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," the loopy nineteenth-century hoax that suggests Jews run the world.
...
Here's a summary of a gem that appeared in Egypt's Al Ahram, the largest newspaper in that country: "A compilation of the 'investigative' work of four reporters on Jewish control of the world states that Jews have become the political decision-makers and control the media in most capitals of the world (Washington, Paris, London, Berlin, Athens, Ankara) and says that the main apparatus for the Jews to control the world is the international Jewish lobby which works for Israel." It is worth noting here that every word Al Ahram prints is vetted and approved by the Egyptian government
...
Bernard Lewis wrote in 1986: "The demonization of Jews goes further than it had ever done in Western literature, with the exception of Germany during the period of Nazi rule."
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Post #16,016
11/1/01 5:35:59 AM
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Well . . .
The Jews started this whole "one God, one way, all others must die" religious intollerance thing in the first place - a few thousand years ago - so it's not surprising it keeps comming back to bite them.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #16,018
11/1/01 6:06:55 AM
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Yabut..
look how Popular that one became.
Somebody had to invent it first.
I guess.
A.
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Post #16,019
11/1/01 6:28:30 AM
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Not at all
Judaism has never forced anyone to do anything. Judaism does not look for converts, in fact onverst are discouraged, it is Christianity and Islam that have used force not Judaism.
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Post #16,034
11/1/01 10:13:05 AM
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You missed the point entirely.
Look at the Jewish texts, the ones the Christians call "Old Testament". No, there's no conversion there, there's simply slaughter of anyone who is not a Jew - slaughter over and over again. There's no forcing of anyone - just kill them. The only saving grace is that many of the conquests recorded never happened but were simply made up.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #16,037
11/1/01 10:28:52 AM
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I didn't miss the point
Yes, if you read those texts literally (as Christians do) then it talks about slaughter (just like it says an eye for an eye). However, Jews have never read the text literally, we have always read the text with the interpretation of the Oral Law, and therefore Jews have always understand those verses differently and that they never meant to say that anyone should be slaughtered.
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Post #16,041
11/1/01 11:58:09 AM
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How very convenient for you.
No matter what is said about the foundation of your religion, you can say "That's what it says, but that's not how we interpret it, and since the interpretation is oral, there's no way you could know if you aren't a Jew".
Uh-huh.
It does have the advantage of allowing widely different versions of Judaism and allows them to change with the times, a luxury Islam does not have. The Christians have the option of ignoring the Old Testament, and some denominations do.
In any case, I suspect the "oral interpretation" was much different back when this stuff was written, and taken much more literally. It was probably still taken much more literally when Christianity and Islam were founded.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #16,067
11/1/01 3:12:55 PM
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Re: How very convenient for you.
Actually, for the past 2000 years it has been written down (known as the talmud) and is therefore open to anyone.
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Post #16,089
11/1/01 4:31:17 PM
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Well, I'm not about to become a Talmudic schollar . .
. . especially since it's dangerous (composer Charles Valentin Morhange (Alkan) was crushed by a heavy bookcase while reaching for a volume of the Talmud).
Consequently, I will take your word (with a grain of salt) that the Talmud weasel words around the literal text to satisfy modern sensibilities.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #16,144
11/1/01 10:45:46 PM
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The talmud was written 2000 years ago...
well before modern sensibilities.
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Post #16,146
11/1/01 11:05:47 PM
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beg to differ
Talmud 1st conference was started in 71 AD after the temple crash(I thought) BTW I have seen offers of translations into english but am leary, how valid are they or is it better to break down and learn hebrew.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #16,361
11/3/01 1:31:24 PM
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I was not being exact
I was giving a round number, it was actually completed and written down about the year 300.
The talmud is not in Hebrew but Aramaic, Artscroll now has a very good translation into English.
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Post #16,061
11/1/01 2:01:51 PM
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A significant detail
You say that Jews don't think that the verses say that people should be slaughtered.
You don't say that Jews think that people should have been slaughtered.
I can easily understand how the text could be interpreted to not be talking about how we should behave now. But it very clearly talks about what awful and disgusting things the Jews of the day did and were supposed to do. And the records of the Jews having conducted those slaughters is hardly irrelevant to the current claims of some Israelies to this very day.
Cheers,
Ben
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Post #16,139
11/1/01 10:34:35 PM
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What records?
According to you, the Bible is man made document written much later and most of the events in it didn't happen.
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Post #16,140
11/1/01 10:36:23 PM
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up early or staying up late?
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #16,214
11/2/01 1:22:34 PM
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That is both a mis-statement, and irrelevant
First of all the old testament in the Christian Bible is essentially the records as kept by the Jews of the history of their religion.
Now Andrew Grygus thinks that large parts of what is recorded in those records is altered and made up after the fact. This is a claim that I personally have little opinion on, given that I have not studied it.
But whether or not the Old Testament is an accurate record of events, it is definitely a record of events. And it is a record which is taken seriously by Jews, Christians, and Muslims. (Though a basic claim of Islam is that the record has been altered through history. Only some Jews and Christians believe this.) Furthermore whether or not I happen to believe that the record is accurate is irrelevant to the fact that many Jews and Christians believe it to be accurate.
In particular many Jews claim that the atrocities recorded in the Old Testament happened essentially as documented in their own religious writings, and current geopolitical claims made by many in Israel depend upon the claim that their ancestors committed genocide. Furthermore it is an item of faith for many millions of people that those acts of genocide were ordered by God, and were therefore good things for the Jews to have done.
Now the statement of mine that you may be confused over is that the Christian New Testament is based on an authorized selection of eyewitness reports that were written down at some remove to the events described. Being eyewitness reports, there are internal contradictions of a kind to be found in eyewitness reports from all days. And I personally place no more or less weight on the eyewitness reports that make up the foundations of Christianity than I do the eyewitness reports from any other small religious sect.
Those are statements which fit perfectly with what is known of the history of the Bible. The statements of fact are universally accepted among religious scholars. However they are statements which a significant portion of the US public takes exception to. (Something like 40% of the US believe that the Bible is inerrant.) Hence the controversy, even though I, for instance, do not have any reason to dispute that there was a man whose name was approximately Jesus Christ (I doubt we have kept the Aramic pronounciation) who was a religious leader put to death, most probably through crucifixion.
But anyways, that is neither here nor there. For one thing it is a claim about the New Testament, not the Old. For another my statement was about current beliefs about events as recorded in the OT, and so the question of whether or not those events in fact happened is completely irrelevant.
Cheers,
Ben
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Post #16,253
11/2/01 3:54:25 PM
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Interesting (?) side note
You don't say that Jews think that people should have been slaughtered. Actually, it's even worse - pretty much every evil thing from the time they entered the promised land to, oh, probably the time of David or Solomon, is attributed to their failure to slaughter every last man, woman, and child in Canaan. "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
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Post #16,074
11/1/01 4:02:33 PM
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Proselytizing
It's pretty obvious that Judaism, unlike Christianity or Islamics, don't go out of their way to convert other peoples to their beliefs.
What I'm wondering, though, is whether it's always been that way. I vaguely recall reading some history where it was claimed that Judaism used to be a bit more willing to seek converts. I know it was talking about prior to the fall of the Temple (90CE), but a bit after the Maccabees and the friction with the Greeks.
Anyhow, I'm just wondering whether the discouragement of proselytizing has always been a feature of Judaic beliefs? (Not that it has much to do with the current conversation).
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Post #16,081
11/1/01 4:11:15 PM
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The original diciples of christ except for paul
were heavily promoters of judaism and were converting right and left. paul decided to change all that and converted them to worship christ instead of G_d.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #16,092
11/1/01 4:43:14 PM
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Besides, how can you be the exclusive chosen people...
if everyone else is allowed in. That would defeat the whole thing. It's kind of like those country clubs not looking for Jewish members. More like the cosa nostra - it's our thing.
Thank you for not asking! Really!
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #16,141
11/1/01 10:38:10 PM
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thass all right, we'd let yas come visit for a price,
just like disney world:)
thanx,
bill
yer just annoyed because ya dont have all the advantages of being stuck in an oven some time when the gentiles get quarrelsome. :)
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #16,222
11/2/01 1:49:30 PM
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Actually, there was no fee...
when I last visited Shalom Park a mixed congregation type Jewish Center here in Charlotte.
Or, the Temple in Kingston, NY where I was a guest to 3 bar mitzvahs.
Shalom!
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #16,142
11/1/01 10:39:59 PM
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Very simple
You misunderstand the idea of the chosen people. Christians believe that the only way to slavation is through Jesus and therefore try to convert everyone. Judaism believes that everyone has a different purpose in this world. Everyone who serves God will be rewarded. Therefore there is no need for everyone to become Jewish.
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Post #16,224
11/2/01 1:53:53 PM
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Thanks for the explanation.
I wish Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons, who come to the door here occasionally, would think the same way.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #16,036
11/1/01 10:26:39 AM
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More on this
[link|http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1001/prager.islam.html|Why Arab/Muslim anti-Semites are worse than the Nazis]
"The most cursory acquaintance with the Arab press and fundamentalist mosque discourse around the world makes it clear that millions of Arabs and Muslims loathe Jews and many want Jews dead. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of Muslims and Arabs who want the one tiny country Jews have ever called their own eliminated from the map. Protests that the Arab/Muslim hostility is directed only at Israeli occupation of that even tinier area known as the West Bank have no basis in reality. The Arab/Muslim world sought Israel's destruction before Israel occupied an inch of the West Bank. We Jews have reasons to worry because the last time a civilization declared such hatred against Jews, what ensued was the most organized and monumental evil in history, the Holocaust. We hoped that Nazi-type hatred would never reappear. But it has. In fact, in two ways, Arab/Muslim anti-Semitism is more frightening.
...
the Nazis hid their murder of Jews from the German public. They did not have confidence that enough Germans would support the murder of Jewish men, women and children. The Arab/Muslim anti-Semites, however, have no such problem. Those who kill Jews in Israel are public celebrities."
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Post #16,095
11/1/01 4:56:41 PM
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Clearly the mindset is (almost..) species-wide.
Under the God-rubric (any one of those) - highest allegiance devolves to the voices in one's head - interpreting what God wants me to do.
Highest allegiance means clearly enough, now over millennia: No matter *what* that subsequent 'decoded' behavior means - towards any single other homo-sap around: or all of them Not-Like-Me (and often enough: those too, with sl. different head-visions).
Are the Muslims more extreme in that subserviece to voices in the head.. than current Judaism: seems true. Yet Jews assuredly deem the phrase Chosen People a valid depiction of Who *They* Are = others are less-chosen / chosen to be lesser. QED. All the seeds are present in all corporate religious dogma:
US vs THEM. Forever. It's God's Will\ufffd.
Language fails in such a milieu. As we see. My reasoned response is:
Fuck all you believers, 'Believers' Righteous-Ones (!) All. Stuff your various: 70 'virgins', sitting at Right-Hand of Golden Thrones, harp-playing androgynes and other fantasy creations of fearful diseased minds. Your despicable fantasies are at war with all life, as you wait for your various shopping-mall rewards, Later (and for now too many: SAP - Soon As Possible). Afraid to Live, Believers yearn for Death all the while Fearing Death. It is also to *laugh* !
You carry the seeds of the suicide of the entire species (and perhaps all.. more complex than bacteria). We have the techno-means for this no longer to be mere hyperbole. WTC/anthrax/whatever appears next week [?] all lead perfectly towards that level of frustration as induces in fragile homo-sap egos:
Mindless Chaotic Spasm War. [see Rand Corp. definition]
20-50K deliverable missiles today on Two Minute alert, as all along since M.A.D. became policy.
If that is not yet inexorable.. give it a few months.
Fie on thee, Holy Blithering Idiots All.
(I am not afraid 'to die'; especially if it clears the slate for a replacement - actually sentient species - to begin a slightly different climb from the slime. The Cosmos has infinite illusionary-time for its experiments. This one is nearing.. 'time' to sterilize the Petri dishes. Bang or usual maudlin whimper - all the same.)
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