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New [Something] must be Crazy...
Thus, neither solution works in the large. People are wicked, inherently, and thus the government needs to be involved in ensuring fair competition in capitalist countries, and in ensuring fair resource distribution in communist countries.

Either solution "could" work if everyone were honest and altruistic in their motivations. But we aren't. We're evil people.
Jesus aside - the 'man' or the Avatar (and He very Much Is aside - in the Corporation which has grown around this too-oft-invoked Name) --

I deem those two sentiments - near-to the core-Mischief which is basic dogma to Christians. And anathema to all those (of whatever or no-Label) who have ever persevered, finally.. to Know Themselves.

Tell enough people that they are worthless scum.. Long Enough. Inculcate that diseased Idea into the malleable minds of enough helpless children Long Enough:

and you get 'Christians' like Ashcroft and Demagogues like the manipulators from the PNAC around Shrub. Sanctimony thrives! on such Bad-ideas. And you get: Consumerism, Mine's Bigger -- and a total ethical collapse of a nation of oft-burned cynics: >Making It So<
A clear feedback mechanism, we now see; all around us. As in QED.

And it follows from Bad Dogma. ie Curb your [guilt] Dogma, sil vous plait.


It is a DISGUSTING Idea, made only more redolent in the retelling (and the Believing and then the Acting Out.) And finally: in the ugly-Results of believing such a Cosmic-scale Lie. About *what* it is: We Are. And Are Not.
(And the same goes for the counterpart of this Toxin - found within the other nameable One-God=Mine sects as abound, currently.)

If the species is to survive our perfection of Planeticidal Weapons: it shall do so only by first extirpating this horrific Lie from the mentations of a next generation of humanity. Then and apparently Only Then: we-all shall be able to commence growth from adolescence and stupidity into Enlightenment.


I Who Be

Mother Forgive Them, for they Know Not What They Do
(but never lack for opinions direct-from-God. You needn't even ask: They'll TELL You: WHO God Is! and what She ate for breakfast.)
New It's all economics
Read [link|http://economics.about.com/cs/macroeconomics/a/logic_of_action.htm|The Logic of Collective Action]. Groups find it difficult to organize for their collective good, even if they all know what it is, because it is in each person's interest to punt and leave it to everyone else.

This isn't about people being good or bad. It is about basic laziness and self-interest.

The only solution which has been demonstrated to work for this is to create individual incentives to put out effort for things that we all find worthwhile. However there is an inherent tension in making sure that it is not overly worthwhile to put out effort for things that most of us would rather not see. Like theft, political manipulation, etc.

I say overly worthwhile because there is a certain background amount that most of us just accept. But we all have our limits, and our limits are routinely exceeded until we (hopefully) find it worthwhile to pushback.

Cheers,
BEn
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Yes but.. it's the competition mantra
Still, given the Religio-competition, same game: sadly, it IS applicable!
(Think - Evangelicals' lobbying effectiveness - shout Loud; Get Power)

Unsurprising also. Since most religions preach cooperation (but the members of most such groups practice competition, unmodified by any pious Sunday pronouncements) - we appear to be back to Todd's excellent simile, below.

Corporate religion fails in similar manner - hypocrisy - as does Econ-theory; except - Econ is more honest in portraying (and advocating) -- limitless competition in all things. Only fools would apply such a mechanical, sterile POV to All of Life [?]

What a way to live, Econ- OR Religio-

Obsolete. Who will finally kill it off and free the offspring, in a generation or two.. to begin exploring next human possibilities?




A.
New If you can't agree that people are evil...
At least agree with me that most people, at some point, WILL act in their own self interest, to the detriment of the whole. They get bought off.

It goes back to the old adage that everyone has their price. No one can completely hold to their principles, none but Jesus himself.

I framed it in my perspective of understanding, Christianity, which you absolutely HATE. No tolerance whatsover.

Please don't typecast me with Bush and Ashcroft. My beliefs are actually pretty different from theirs. I wasn't in favor of our leader's policies in Iraq. 87 billion dollars would have done a LOT more good at home.

I'm much more moderate. And if Christians were really true to their beliefs, then our society would be communist, and REAL Christians would be giving their excess money to help others, instead of building empires of their own. I'm not sure it's even Christian to have a 401K, if there are hungry people in the world. Christians would be living with the poor, instead of living in mansions.

The problem is that you see the people who make Christianity a joke, you aren't looking at the model life of Jesus.

How do you know that you are "really" saved? Bottom line, you don't. But real Christians bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Goodness, Kindness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, and Self Control. You see people exhibiting those qualities, you've found the "real thing".

I'm sorry that Christianity has left a foul taste in your mouth, Ashton. But I would recommend that you actually read the Bible, and you might decide that Christianity isn't so bad, but people who claim to be Christian are.

I don't think it's the religion you hate, it's the people who practice it so badly.

Glen Austin
New I want to alter that last part...
I'm sorry that Christianity has left a foul taste in your mouth, Ashton. But I would recommend that you actually read the Bible, and you might decide that Christianity isn't so bad, but people who claim to be Christian are.


I would say it as, "Some people who claim to be Christian are." Not all Christians are bad. I do my best to be all those things you described, showing Love, exhibiting Joy, looking for Peace, trying to practice Patience and Goodness, showing Kindness and Gentleness, strengthing my Faithfulness, and working on maintaining my Self Control.

Nightowl >8#



"It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
New A quote you'll like.
From Maya Angelou, civil rights activist.

"I'm not a Christian. I'm trying to be a Christian."

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

New Re: A quote you'll like.
Neat. :) But I'm also trying to avoid using a religious quote while the faith war is raging. ;)

Thanks, Static!

Nightowl >8#
"It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
New Oh how well do I know that problem...
IRL, I often find myself coming with a pithy quote or cliche for those sort of situations. Of course, they rarely really help.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

New Well my goal was...
to find a quote this year that summed up my diplomatic nature and the use of it in an argument. I think I came close, but I couldn't decide between them. So I used both for now. ;)

Nightowl >8#

P.S. Truman was my favorite president too, so that made it doubly hard to choose.
"It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
New Its too hard to differentiate
"I don't think it's the religion you hate, it's the people who practice it so badly."

I don't disagree with this. I don't exactly hate the mess, but I do my best to stay away from it.

Look at it this way. I might have a nice little reflecting pool in my back yard. The pool provides some enjoyment, put in some nice goldfish, maybe watch the birds stop in to drink. Plenty of positives there. But stagnant water breeds mosquitoes too. Despite the plusses, if I find myself getting stung every evening when I go into the back yard, I'm apt to figure that the plusses don't make up for the minuses and I'm going to do away with the source of my discomfort. Sorry fish, sorry birds, take it up with the mosquitoes. (Having a sister who has contracted Lyme disease, my dislike for mosquitoes is intense).

I suspect therein lies Ashton's viewpoint. Religious tolerance overtaxed. Best to just do away with the whole mess.




"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
New Admirably encapsulated!
Yes, IMO - it's been a failure for the species.

How many more I-Believe Wars will be needed -- to ratify that observation?

(And.. how many more can the planet of living things tolerate? now that we have bent our minds to creating literal Doomsday Weapons in the usual massive profusion which characterizes an infantile notion of 'security' (as managed by a Corporation geared to profit$))

Nice simile.. almost prompts extending to an animated allegory


Ashton
New Lyme disease is caused by Tics? You hating the wrong insect?
stick a spork in it.

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New No - wait - what's the one going around in mosquitoes?
The one that causes encephalitis? Oh - West Nile. Sorry. That's what she got - a year of headaches and weakness for a follow on to the original encephalitis attack.



"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."

     -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
New that one is bad and we get it around here as well :(
stick a spork in it.

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Re: If you can't agree that people are evil...
Of course there are Christians (And Islamists, Hindus ...) who are not hypocrites! (Nor have I any cause to number you among the ones who are). My beef is with the entire process - it doesn't work; it hasn't worked - it apparently Cannot Work: if the aim is a world capable of refraining from self-immolation.. shortly. (We have the Means -- and pleny of meanness to employ those.)

What I 'despise' is not Christians or even 'Christians'; merely - hypocrisy and simplemindedness, however labeled. And it is simpleminded to arrogate to oneself exclusive possession of a direct pipeline to The One 'Personal God\ufffd'.

The consequences of such hubris == Our History of duelling mobs of True Believers. Perpetual war. (matters not WTF each one 'believes' - as long as My Mob Wins).

That otherwise well-meaning people - tolerate, silently.. as spokespersons for their creed! the likes of a Pat Robertson or a Foulwell - is indication enough that the entire method Fails. I've lived around more Christians than others - so I can enumerate their follies with more specificity. No need. Any can see who will look at the record of Believer VS Believer.

Within one generation of an Avatar's preachment (of Universal Principles always understood by wise persons globally and historically) -- Corporate Priesthood has begun its entrenchment -- with eyes fully upon retaining the power and status within Corporatocracies everywhere. That is How it fails. (I suppose that the hubris is a sufficiency of Why.)

Today, 2004.
Massive quantities of nukes now make it crucial that our species abandon this adolescent warmongering-for-'God', despite there being yet no powerful coordinated movement away from.. the sordid malevolence of the preachers of hate, whether towards homos? unbelievers? or just - anyone Different. Who shall finally oppose these wielders of microphones for Corporate-gone-Wrong?

And today.. we have a bogus 'leader' who lives the role of the perfect inciter to massive violence to come:

Bring. 'Em. ON. ------>

He will. Bring 'Em ON. If allowed to continue alienating, state-by-state - the remainder of the planet. And many so-called Christians have been - will be egging him on. God Is On OUR Side. cha. cha. cha.


Some 'Christians', those.


HTH,

Ashton



PS - I've read the Bible, more than once.
No question that JC got a lot Right, as does every Avatar. His parables were great for the mentations of the times. Avatars aren't that uncommon; many who 'Realize' What it is We Are: we just don't hear much about..

That matter, though - just isn't discussed in (just for you :) 'America'.

Jesus of Nazareth would barf at the wealth, power, obtuseness of the Corporation that 'just grew like Topsy' - IMhO.

Except for JC (guesses-at-quotes) - it's a committee hack. Paul a obv misogynist - and likely impotent. Connection?
Where's the Gospel of Thomas, in the 'Approved' Version? <<

The Kingdom of Heaven is all around you. But you will not see..

Now THAT was metaphysical. And simple enough to verify, if one does the internal work which nobody else can do for the lazy.

Not the deathly crap of Leviticus and the LSD-bad trip of Revelations - as garner so many haters of-the-Different.. ever since. We have whole broadcast Networks! Dedicated.. to haters. All waitin to Rapture out and watch the Bad Ones fry. {'cause surely moi Shall Be Chosen! cha cha}

Yep - I read it. Carefully.
Ever read the Gita? Arjuna has some things to Teach Us, also.
As does 'Advaita'. Etc.

..And.. It's all OPEN SOURCE <<<
New you mean chicoms are christians?
would be a surprise to about a billion or so of them. Stupidity evil graft and corruption is not native to only christian thought, baksheesh is not a word derived from european tongues and the loverly hindu's are happy to burn a village of muslims every now and again, of course the land they take later has nothing to do with the religious burning. This problem is endemic across the species.
thanx,
bill
stick a spork in it.

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Yup.. it's a Fundamental(ist) issue - nondenominational.
But in the US, those other small group representations - can't come even Close to the pseudo-Christian contributions and the polital involvement of mainly, the most scurrilous of the clan. Where are voices of 'the Christians for Moderation', or say, the 350 Club or: Something!
Bloody well NOT on the CBC or the rest of the meeja monopolies.

But then, the US has become a Funny Place overall:
Where else is a 'peace activist' deemed a Terrorist - now Officially?
(and all opposing voices now officially quarantined a half-mile away from an appearance of The pResident of All the People\ufffd?)

Nope, you can't explain away the One Party with Two Right Theological Wings - by ref to Other places. THIS is the place (most here) live. And it's Weird.


bzzzt
..or, for that matter: Jews Against Jingoism ;-)
     [Something] must be Crazy... - (Ashton) - (16)
         It's all economics - (ben_tilly) - (1)
             Yes but.. it's the competition mantra - (Ashton)
         If you can't agree that people are evil... - (gdaustin) - (11)
             I want to alter that last part... - (Nightowl) - (4)
                 A quote you'll like. - (static) - (3)
                     Re: A quote you'll like. - (Nightowl) - (2)
                         Oh how well do I know that problem... - (static) - (1)
                             Well my goal was... - (Nightowl)
             Its too hard to differentiate - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                 Admirably encapsulated! - (Ashton)
                 Lyme disease is caused by Tics? You hating the wrong insect? -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                     No - wait - what's the one going around in mosquitoes? - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                         that one is bad and we get it around here as well :( -NT - (boxley)
             Re: If you can't agree that people are evil... - (Ashton)
         you mean chicoms are christians? - (boxley) - (1)
             Yup.. it's a Fundamental(ist) issue - nondenominational. - (Ashton)

Dim Sum for brunch!
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