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New And right there is your fuck-up, in spades
Ross is right on this, Norm.

Your list of causes for your problems omits the only important one, you. Stop fucking wallowing in your own self-pity and wake up to reality someday.

Reality is that we ALL have problems, and the only one who can do anything about your personal problems is yourself. If you wish to declare yourself a victim forever, nothing can stop you. And nothing can stop the people who done you wrong from claiming that they are victims of their own circumstances ad nauseum.

But the fact is that if you really cared to take responsibility for yourself, you could. You could choose to deal with your own crap and live a better life. And pretty much everyone here knows it, which is why you don't get a lot of sympathy.

Oh yeah, I know what you are thinking about this. He doesn't really know what I've been through, what does he know of trouble? No, I'm not going into specifics. But I've seen enough of trouble, both directly and indirectly, to recognize self-pitying pap when I see it. And to recognize that the first step towards actually doing something about it is killing the whining self-pity.

IIRC you have kids. In which case you don't just have to do it for yourself. Do it for them. Remember this, if they grow up seeing you spend your life whining about being a victim, you have just handed them a load of your crap to grow up with and given them no role-model for how to deal with their own problems. And if they don't figure out how to do what you are avoiding doing, then when they grow up their litany of woes will include having you as their father.

And they'll be right. Just as you're right. And they'll miss the point just as you are doing. They can't help having had you as a dad. The only one who can control how much of a burden vs asset having you as a dad was is you. The ones who have to deal with the consequences are them. But you can make it easier.

Here is how you can make it easier. By taking responsibility for your own life. Now. That way you pass along less shit. And give them a model for how to deal with their own.

Despite every excuse that you can invent. The only excuse that you need is, I'm improving, and ____ is my current focus to make sure that I continue to improve. Every time you feel inclined to give more excuses, review what improvements you have made. Make the first improvement be, I've been dealt whatever hand I've been dealt, but it is up to me to do something about it.

Regards,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Maybe you are right
it will be hard to break a habit of a lifetime, to get rid of self-pity. In a way I am working on it, by going to college and trying to get a degree so I can get myself out of the disabilty I am on. I am working on it, but it is the hardest thing in the world for me.

You are right, I cannot control external factors, but I can try and control internal ones. If I can only change the way I react to external factors, I can get more control over my illness.



"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"

New There is no if about it
If I must be a slave to habit, let me be a slave to good habits.

-- Og Mandio


We can't change the fact that we are creatures of habits. But we can change the habits that we are creatures of.

However you won't get there by talking like a dishrag. You also won't get there by acknowledging how hard it is.

You get there by focusing on what you are doing to change. Ironically when you do it right, it doesn't take much "effort", just persistance. After all a habit isn't a 500 pound boulder, it just is an insubstantial reflex that feels that way.

Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New You should read Vaknin's entire work
I think he is the most profound psychological thinker alive. He is not a psychiatrist.

Unfortunately, "do it for the kids" is a far too feeble reason for a narcissist to change. That is why you'll usually find an entire family of narcissists when you find an individual. The cold-blooded symbiotic ruthlessness of these families has to be experienced to be understood. An outsider might as well be a piece of furniture. Nothing of his is valued, not even the outsider's family heirlooms and memorobilia. The human race ends at the family branch.

According to Vaknin, only insistent, brutal confrontation can force a narcissist into change.

The scary thing is - our entire society is set up to reward not just superficial narcissism (clothes, youth culture, etc.) but the pernicious psychological syndrome of narcissism itself. You will see that Vaknin makes deep observation that extreme conformity and conservatism in the reactionary sense is one of the characteristic hallmarks of narcissism. Our country itself can be said to be suffering from advanced narcissism. This provides a perfect explanation of how these flag waving jingoists can at the same time be virulently anti-American in the true sense - the America loved by the narcissist is the image of America that conceals the fact of bursting prisons, extreme classism based on wealth, and brutal, cold-blooded lack of concern for other nations in the real sense.
-drl
New Oh, I've experienced it. Trust me on this. :-(
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
     Before the year is out, I'll beat you to it. - (orion) - (56)
         Oh, stop wallowing in self pity . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (15)
             You are, of course, correct, except for one thing - (orion) - (14)
                 I used to wallow in self pity . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                     Re: I used to wallow in self pity . . - (deSitter)
                     The difference seems to be - (orion) - (2)
                         Re: The difference seems to be - (Nightowl) - (1)
                             A friend of mine didn't do that - (orion)
                 YOU WERE NEVER INSANE - (deSitter) - (8)
                     You do not even know me that well - (orion) - (6)
                         wanker != insane -NT - (pwhysall)
                         Re: You do not even know me that well - (deSitter) - (2)
                             There is temporary insanity - (orion) - (1)
                                 No, there is not - (deSitter)
                         The word you are looking for is not 'insane' . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                             I'll agree with that - (orion)
                     Depression & Enjoyment - (Nightowl)
         Grow up. -NT - (pwhysall) - (1)
             I've tried - (orion)
         Tell it to someone who cares - (Silverlock) - (26)
             actually I care - (deSitter) - (23)
                 I gave up on him a while ago - (Silverlock)
                 As I have said before - (orion) - (17)
                     Re: As I have said before - (deSitter) - (16)
                         Don't you think I've tried? - (orion) - (15)
                             No I don't - (deSitter) - (14)
                                 The problem - (orion) - (13)
                                     Re: The problem - (deSitter) - (3)
                                         Self-Involvement isn't even a word - (orion) - (2)
                                             Re: Self-Involvement isn't even a word - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                 You asked for it - (orion)
                                     Schizoaffective disorder - (deSitter)
                                     Narcissistic neurosis - (deSitter)
                                     And right there is your fuck-up, in spades - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                         Maybe you are right - (orion) - (1)
                                             There is no if about it - (ben_tilly)
                                         You should read Vaknin's entire work - (deSitter) - (1)
                                             Oh, I've experienced it. Trust me on this. :-( -NT - (ben_tilly)
                                     This is the MOST important thing to remember - (Nightowl) - (1)
                                         I know that - (orion)
                 The only opinion about Norm that matters is Norm's. - (Silverlock) - (3)
                     Go soak your head - (orion) - (2)
                         Was I talking to you? -NT - (Silverlock) - (1)
                             You posted on the thread - (orion)
             Re: Tell it to someone who cares - (Nightowl) - (1)
                 Thank you for caring (new thread) - (orion)
         Yes. -NT - (Arkadiy) - (2)
             Thank you Mr. Perfect :) -NT - (orion)
             I wish that my slap in the face would help. - (Arkadiy)
         Flaming yourself is illegal. GDTJ. DNPG. DNC$200. -NT - (Another Scott)
         Norm, just change your name to Ginger -NT - (boxley) - (3)
             No can do - (orion) - (2)
                 google Larson, Far side, ginger -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                     Funny -NT - (orion)
         Here we go again. - (Steve Lowe) - (1)
             I'll post this once (new thread) - (orion)
         And I have this to say, Norman - (Nightowl)

Is it me, or is the band getting bigger?
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