Joel Spolskly's response: you fools

Post #10,532 by kmself 9/26/01 8:15:00 AM Reply	Joel Spolskly's response: you fools [link\|http://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/09/24\|Completely rewriting code is a big-time mistake common of immature developers with no real software experience.] `-- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?`
Post #10,536 by Simon_Jester 9/26/01 8:53:13 AM Reply	Depends on the reason.... I understand his philosophy....but there are design problem (rather than simple code issues) rebuilding from scratch (may) be the way to go. Does anyone believe telnet is a great program and that ssh shouldn't have been written?
Post #10,567 by cforde 9/26/01 12:35:48 PM Reply	along the same lines does any believe that Netscape Navigator is a great program and Mozilla shouldn't have been written? They wouldn't really be starting from scratch. They're now a lot wiser and will use the lessons they've learned in designing the new version. "Plan to through one away; you will anyhow" -- Fred Brooks. Have fun, Carl Forde
Post #10,574 by kmself 9/26/01 1:39:59 PM Reply	Refactoring If you'll read Spolsky's essay, he addresses the architectural issue up front. Refactoring is probably the most common reason to address old code: you've got an unholy mess that needs to be rearchitected from the get-go. According to Spolsky, this is still no reason to toss the old code. There's too much accumulated wisdom to toss it all out. I frankly have my own problems with this PoV of Spolsky. He's pretty right on in other respects. I've seen code that simply defies explanation, though, and which I'd spent some six months or so trying to work my way through -- though I reduced the total LoC by a factor of three, I never really understood it. So, I pitched this out to generate discussion. I think Joel's point is that, if MSFT has to admit to a total rewrite, they're in blind panic mode on IIS, and likely lost key staff or have to significantly rearchitect the code. `-- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?`
Post #10,625 by cforde 9/27/01 12:55:59 AM Reply	rock and a hard place Microsoft has lost some key people in high places in the last 2 years or so. That might affect their ability to re-architect IIS. I think a major concern for them is their business model. The thing (imho) they want to embrace next is web application servers. But that requires Java and with the ego they've invested in the anti-Java campaign I can't see them doing that. Does an application server based on C# make sense? Isn't that .NET? Can they overcome Java's market share? Remember we're dealing with the server-side here, where they don't have a monopoly to leverage. Negative coverage from Gartner and others is going to make selling .NET even tougher. Blind panic probably isn't the right characterization, Bill G. and company aren't the kind to panic, more like cold sweat desperation. Look for them to try something that hasn't been done before and negates Java's advantages. Hmmm, [link\|http://www.openp2p.com/pub/a/p2p/2001/05/30/hailstorm.html\|Hailstorm], maybe? Have fun, Carl Forde
Post #10,875 by tablizer 9/28/01 11:43:15 PM Reply	MS has a good idea >> But that requires Java and with the ego they've invested in the anti-Java campaign I can't see them doing that. Does an application server based on C# make sense? Isn't that .NET? Can they overcome Java's market share? << The idea of .NET is that multiple languages can allegedly use it. They even brought in Bertrand Meyer's group to port Eiffle. That way one is not stuck with just one programming language (Java). Unlike SUN, they are only hogging the API, not the language(s). >> Negative coverage from Gartner and others is going to make selling .NET even tougher. << If MS shuts down all the mostly unused gizmos on IIS defaults, most of their security problems will go away. It is the extra's that leave the most holes. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #10,901 by wharris2 9/29/01 10:26:09 AM Reply	Re: MS has a good idea Good idea? Portable? Point me to all the non-Windows ports of .NET. Who knows how empty the sky is In the place of a fallen tower. Who knows how quiet it is in the home Where a son has not returned. -- Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966)
Post #11,607 by tablizer 10/3/01 7:30:10 PM Reply	Point me to all the usable non-Sun ports of Java ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #11,611 by pwhysall 10/3/01 7:39:37 PM Reply	Re: Point me to all the usable non-Sun ports of Java For a JRE, I'm rather partial to the [link\|http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/linux130/?dwzone=java\|IBM implementation]. Apparently their dev tools are nifty, too. Peter Shill For Hire [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]
Post #11,614 by imric 10/3/01 7:47:24 PM Reply	chuckle Ya beat me to it! Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #11,624 by admin 10/3/01 8:12:39 PM Reply	More usable than Sun's, faster than Microsoft's. IBM is my JVM of choice. Regards, -scott anderson
Post #11,613 by imric 10/3/01 7:45:25 PM Reply	Well, off the top of my head Here's a few of [link\|http://www.ibm.com/java/jdk\|IBM's] various JDKs... Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #10,909 by Andrew Grygus 9/29/01 1:18:49 PM Reply	Not a significant consideration . . . . because most current languages are being retrofitted to optionally produce Java byte code. Any software developer with the business awareness of a jellyfish (12%?) should clearly see what happens to Microsoft "partners" by now. The choice should be pretty obvious to any sentient being. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #10,940 by wharris2 9/29/01 8:10:19 PM Reply	Re: Not a significant consideration . . Any software developer with the business awareness of a jellyfish (12%?) should clearly see what happens to Microsoft "partners" by now. The choice should be pretty obvious to any sentient being. Er, doesn't that exclude most managers and policy makers? Who knows how empty the sky is In the place of a fallen tower. Who knows how quiet it is in the home Where a son has not returned. -- Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966)
Post #10,942 by Andrew Grygus 9/29/01 8:24:38 PM Reply	Yes [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #10,573 by tonytib 9/26/01 1:35:48 PM Reply	Don't agree with that, either at times, it's a very good idea to start from scratch. I've got some five year old, crusty, Windows 3.1 code that is crying out for a complete re-architecture and re-write. I've learned a lot since then. Tony
Post #10,586 by static 9/26/01 8:17:16 PM Reply	Indeed. "Be prepared to throw the first implementation away". Or something. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"

Welcome to IWETHEY!