Re: You are the dud!. Pulled grenade out of pin with your te

Post #92,833 by cybermace5 3/29/03 1:36:14 PM Reply	Re: You are the dud!. Pulled grenade out of pin with your te Well, I made some points and you haven't countered them. Only because you know I am correct. You did not look at what I was saying before taking me out in the street for a duel. You certainly have not convinced me you know anything more than the average person about China.
Post #92,862 by dmarker 3/29/03 3:22:10 PM Reply	Tell me 1 'point' you made - but lets define a point has being specific and not so general as to have no meaning. >> Fractured into multiple opposing regimes ??? When ??? 403-221 BC, 220-589 AD, 618-907 AD, 1644-1949 AD. << What opposing factions & when & how long did they last in the periods quoted. Give some conteaxt. ***************** Here is one of you generalizations that makes no point, for example ... >> There isn't much written about China outside of the elite class. Granted, everyone else survived, but it wasn't until the twelfth century AD that the population's food problems were met as a whole. Even then, you had rice and you had mud. Enjoy. The state of the majority of the population did not change from then until recently. << This is pure crap and a classic set of CYBERMACE5 vague gereralizations. So here I challenge you quote a source that backs any part of the above claim (But I am of the opinion that such generaizations can't be backed up because you gave no context). China's population was for the majority of its history, well fed and secure but like any part of the world was subject to pressure from the north. Why do you think they built the great wall ???. To protect the Emperor's favorite garden of to protect the people of China ??? Also China's people suffered a general decline in well being in the past 100 years, it is only in the past 20 that things have begun to get back & there is still a long way to go. ********************************* >> Just a few notes on the rest of your comments: You underplay brutality and dictator control as the very beginning, by saying it was the way it worked then. Doesn't change what it was, and all the periods mentioned contained some aspect of that style of government. << Again from you generalizations, you are arguing that because a leader lived in a pre-modern era he was brutal by nature which is another unrealistic argument. Again I challenge you to prove that they were 'all brutal'. I made the case that Emperor's controlled their people, during the short periods they didn't, law and order broke down & people suffered. There were periods of brutality when order was reestablished or war was being fought - just as in Iraq today. **************************** >> Exemplified by one of the cruelest systems in known history << Provide your reference and context that says she ran the cruelst system known to history (yet another of your generalizations - ie what system, why cruel, why no reference to back the remark just your suggestion I go looking to try to do the job for you (sheesh). **************************** >> The rest of the progress and achievements you mention were restricted to the few privileged (like many other governments in other regions). Most people ate their rice, sold the rest to pay taxes, sat in the dirt, and died when it was convenient. << Generalizations again - provide a ref to back any aspect of what you are trying to convey. You must have conjured the though from some information. ****************************** >> This is not to underplay the rich documented culture and history of the Chinese elite. I merely pose that they don't have that much more to brag about than the rest of us. Each succesive regime change did manage to capture all of China rather than parts of it, but I'm not sure that qualifies them to claim expertise in proper governmental policy. << What point are you trying to make here == Each succesive regime change did manage to capture all of China all you are making is a meaningless implcation that each regieme had to capture China each time -- that is meaningless ??? Doug M The weakbess of debating with you is you have provided only general opinions and even then nothing to back them up with. Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003 Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Post #92,882 by cybermace5 3/29/03 5:08:10 PM Reply	Re: Tell me 1 'point' you made - On the contrary, you implied that you were fully qualified to debate on China. If you do not recognize the name of Empress Wu, you are sorely lacking and are just Googling your way through this.
Post #92,894 by Ashton 3/29/03 6:14:46 PM Reply	Straw Woman - now who is Googling and who knows China? A preference for simplistic and dismissive slogans isn't about knowledge of the topic; it's called cant. And someone living in HK for x-years has got to have a saner first-hand overview of this massive topic than any of the Nintendo-Eloi -- even before the inane web-war of links comes to signify nothing at all, except intransigence. No, you aren't the anonymous-UQC marlowe, but your style is still familiar, and as to its content - All generalizations are false. Including -- Ashton
Post #92,896 by rcareaga 3/29/03 6:35:54 PM Reply	how gratifying ...that my initial post (with so self-evident an opening premise as: The Chinese Have Been at This Sort of Thing Longer Than We Have) has yielded such contention, as the Nintendo-Eloi (may I?) personage picks it up and stumbles with it. But you know, Ashton, if people our age hadn't somehow dropped the ball there might not have been suffered to arise another generation of docile consumers of the myth of a benign national purpose. Too bad about this one--after a quarter of a century of passive feeding on the Official Narrative he's clearly ruined for anything like critical thinking. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #92,909 by cybermace5 3/29/03 7:49:39 PM Reply	Re: how gratifying And where might this Official Narrative be coming from?
Post #92,919 by rcareaga 3/29/03 8:42:08 PM Reply	Re: how gratifying And where might this Official Narrative be coming from? Why, your parents, your teachers, your textbooks, your beloved television, your "objective" print media (I recall my college roommate in 1970 displaying a copy of TIME disdainfully 'twixt thumb and forefinger and asking "Have you ever noticed how TIME wants it both ways? --Appears to criticize administration policy, but always adds 'of course, our nation's intentions are sound.'"), and the Church or Synagogue of Your Choice. This just in, ninny: the country of your birth is a globe-girdling empire. Its rulers would have you believe that (a) we're not an empire, and (b) even if we were an empire it would be OK, 'cause we're just bringing peace & enlightenment and the uncontested blessings of the American Way of Life to the benighted world. If you tote up the number of deaths inflicted on the world by the military forces of Blue Team vs the (late and deeply-lamented) Red Team and their respective proxies (Note: Khmer Rouge complicity evenly divided --see Hersch, et al) since 1945 (remember "official US "body counts" in Vietnam), the Land of Righteousness is way ahead. But you have absorbed the myth of America as Good Guys as unquestioningly as I did growing up--the difference being that I'd figured it out by seventeen, and you're still hypnotized at twenty-five. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #92,944 by cybermace5 3/29/03 10:48:07 PM Reply	Re: how gratifying Ask yourself this question: "Between the two of us, who is actually programmed into some kind of groupthink?" Apparently you experienced all of the influences you relate. You arrived at a decision point around 17 years, and I have yet to reach your same conclusions. The difference? My parents did not try to force me into any ideological viewpoints. They made theirs known, but did not punish me for having an opposing viewpoint. They merely asked me to research the issue for myself. My teachers were nonexistent. I was homeschooled. Most of my studies involved science and mathematics, with the requisite other subjects taking the form of research essays and papers. My textbooks were science, physics and mathematics books, and independently-written actual books for other subjects. I do not own a television, and have not had one in the house for nearly two decades. I do not subscribe to any newspapers or magazines not of a technical nature. I get my news from various internet sources in multiple countries. I have religious beliefs but have not regularly attended a church for the majority of my life. You blame these influences for my opinions, yet you have been absorbed into that very system to a much greater degree. Now are your opinions a departure from the mass programming, or a planned and calculated result of it?
Post #92,947 by boxley 3/29/03 11:00:29 PM Reply	have you travelled and visited any other countries? or sojourned at some of the inner cities of our own. Curious, thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #93,057 by rcareaga 3/30/03 11:47:24 AM Reply	you forgot the "born in a log cabin" bit Interesting CV, but misses the point: you could have been home-schooled by Stephen Hawking and Camille Paglia, with Mother Theresa as au pair, admitted to Harvard at fifteen and graduated two years later with a triple major in philosophy, physics and political science, and awarded your first MacArthur grant on your twentieth birthday--but if in day-to-day discourse you routinely made statements betraying your belief in the existence of the Tooth Fairy, none of your credentials would spare you our disdain. Just so, your acceptance of the US regime line du jour. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #93,078 by cybermace5 3/30/03 1:48:57 PM Reply	What...! Are...are...you saying...there is no tooth fairy? But...all those quarters...! Regardless, I still think you really need to analyze where the regime line du jour is coming from, and who of us has swallowed it. In my opinion, you are certainly following the path set for you by the liberal school system and media.
Post #93,079 by rcareaga 3/30/03 2:02:39 PM 3/30/03 2:42:41 PM Reply	Re: What...! We are, to be sure, all of us to some extent the prisoners of our formative influences. Regarding the "liberal school system," this is odd coming from one who by his own account has had no experience with public secondary education. If liberalism was lurking somewhere in the LA City School District by the time I left it in 1970, it was concealed at least as well as Iraq's purported WMD. And when you say "liberal media," you have just added the Easter Bunny to the bill of particulars. cordially, [edit: typo] "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist." Edited by rcareaga March 30, 2003, 02:42:41 PM EST Expand All History
Post #93,117 by cybermace5 3/30/03 4:16:36 PM Reply	Re: What...! You have to be standing pretty far to the left, in order to see the media as the right. You're one of those individuals who would homeschool their children because the schools are too conservative....
Post #93,130 by dmarker 3/30/03 4:57:23 PM Reply	Degenerating threads -endup in circles & then fly up own ass Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003 Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Post #93,136 by inthane-chan 3/30/03 5:18:58 PM Reply	Query: If the media is so "liberal," as you say... ...then why the minimal coverage of the [link\|http://www.awolbush.com\|fact] that Bush is a deserter, when Clinton having a relationship with an intern was frontpage news for more than a year? Huh, guess those liberals really have it in for the conservatives, eh? (Nope, I'm not in this for a Brandiochian/Marlowean flamewar - just interested to see how you explain it. I abhor right-shift. God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.
Post #93,139 by jake123 3/30/03 5:42:05 PM Reply	You need to get out more If you think US media is left wing. By global standards, the US media is probably the most reactionary communications available outside of The National Post. Just out of curiousity, what would you call Iraq's media... right? or left? --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #93,167 by Ashton 3/30/03 10:14:54 PM Reply	Sneaky qustion, there..____ betcha no-one wants to bite. It would have to rely on '50s era cant - since which: I don't think there exists today - an either useful or merely agreed-on definition of either so-called polarity! (Except that maybe.. many would agree that the conceptual line is bent in a circle and the far-Rightful ones meet the bomb-throwing Anarchists & Shake Hands) Use of these epithets has become so ingrained as politico-blab: it survives, like not walking under ladders. As Confucious observed ~ when language is fucked: you are fucked. So let's hear it from any 'side' of this icosahedron: WHAT is 'Left' ? WHAT is 'Right' ? (And for encore: tell me what it is that self-labelled 'Conservatives' most want to conserve. Then - what has 'Liberal' to do with a "liberal education" [and if not / why not]) But start a new topic; this multi-volume set can't bear the right-shift.. Ashton who predicts that no one wants to take This one on.
Post #93,237 by cybermace5 3/31/03 1:06:07 PM Reply	Re: You need to get out more Hah! Because I'm a stupid American hick, I'm supposed to say "Whol, I guess that I-rak media is left-winged, cuz left-winged is bad yup?" The Iraqi media is conservative...very, very conservative. Of course they have nowhere near the freedom to criticize the goverment (make that NO freedom). One of the reasons that conservative Muslims despise Americans is our media. The things shown on TV and the big screen are beyond belief for them, completely out of what they consider morally acceptable. They see what our media portrays, and want to protect their sons and daughters from that. And I agree wholeheartedly. The vast majority of "entertainment" these days is a race to find new levels of degeneration, in order to shock and awe jaded Americans. It's only a few more levels till we're throwing lions to the lawyers in arena combat.
Post #93,245 by inthane-chan 3/31/03 1:34:18 PM Reply	LRPD Candidate (new thread) Created as new thread #93244 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=93244\|LRPD Candidate] God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.
Post #93,263 by jake123 3/31/03 2:17:23 PM Reply	Re: You need to get out more Hah! Because I'm a stupid American hick, I'm supposed to say "Whol, I guess that I-rak media is left-winged, cuz left-winged is bad yup?" \r\n\r\n No, I was just asking. See, I'd call it very right wing in its approach, as its entirely devoted to supporting the power structure in place. \r\n\r\n OTOH, it's also fair to say that Ba'ath is (nominally) socialist. \r\n\r\n Ultimately, I'd call it fascist... and fascism is on the extreme right end of the traditional left/right spectrum. If you take a look at how Iraq actually runs its society, fascist is almost certainly the best description available for it. \r\n\r\n The question is intended to point out that "liberal media" or "neo-con commentators" as an epithet is not very useful. Keeping in mind that media in the US has over the last ten years had its ownership concentrated to an incredible degree, looking at Mussolini's description of fascism is illustrative. \r\n\r\n The Iraqi media is conservative...very, very conservative. Of course they have nowhere near the freedom to criticize the goverment (make that NO freedom). One of the reasons that conservative Muslims despise Americans is our media. The things shown on TV and the big screen are beyond belief for them, completely out of what they consider morally acceptable. They see what our media portrays, and want to protect their sons and daughters from that. \r\n\r\n Ultimately, that's an exercise in futility. They'd be much further ahead trying to inoculate them instead, by giving them the right intellectual and moral tools to look at it critically. \r\n\r\n Part of the problem is that they don't have the experience of living in polylithic societies, and that makes acceptance of difference much more difficult for them. I live in a relatively small city, and I can see people descended from every continent within two blocks of my home. The average citizen of Kuwait or SA only sees people from other continents when they're the domestic help. It makes a big difference in how they see the world. \r\n\r\n And I agree wholeheartedly. The vast majority of "entertainment" these days is a race to find new levels of degeneration, in order to shock and awe jaded Americans. It's only a few more levels till we're throwing lions to the lawyers in arena combat. \r\n\r\n Great line... :) My dad's a lawyer; I'm sure he'd get a laugh out of that one. I'll have to run it by him next time I see him. \r\n\r\n What's happening with mass market entertainment in the US brings to mind the concept of bread and circuses... which brings one 'round (by an admittedly circuitous route) to the point that the first victim of Imperial Rome was Republican Rome. Something to think about... --\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \r\n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \r\n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #93,302 by dmarker 3/31/03 5:31:56 PM Reply	10 points for the lions to lawyers quip <grin> Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003 Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Post #92,945 by Ashton 3/29/03 10:48:50 PM Reply	Mea maxima culpa. Yes, I doubt there are many over 50 who haven't worn that hair shirt :( especially in moments after some overheard exchange at the local 7-11-no-splitting-aces. Could I?/We?/They! have spent a little less time with the tomfoolery, the mesmerizing toys with blinking lights - and a bit more on Nation-building right chere in River City ?! Clearly there aren't enough Jaime Escalantes to go around, and 'we' still make sure that any brilliant-Ones shall be nibbled to death by ducks. So (too-) many leave. This remains a primitive anti-intellect type of roadshow IMhO; just look at who we pay the most and watch the most. We watch. Most 'do' hardly anything - so Rilke's out too; imagine a Murican saying and meaning.. Always choose the difficult.. (!) (Unless the 'difficulty' is - maxing a profit, of course) But as my teacher friends have observed, one way or t'other: nobody can 'teach'the doggedly unwilling. First must come the desire to learn, and that entails giving-up much precious junk acquired by osmosis into one's deliquescent wetware (But. but.. they were so sincere when they told me that __!) That takes a certain amount of guts. Still and all, the umm world of duality appears to be running its normal course of Yes/No Right/Wrong, as designed. And swimming in those eddies is not so much about being gummed to death by toothless pira\ufffdas as Why Bother? But then.. so soon we forget, and join in and.. What were we talking about? I get so confused. I can only abjectly admire the intentional suffering (another Rilke fav ;-) of every dedicated teacher, faced daily with so much material - so much of which is malleable as Wolfram.. as they yearn to return soonest to the pocket Nintendo and cel-fone, to express everything not-new avoided today. (OK- Tungsten; The Periodic Chart! - a mystery to the modern HS grad - is itself a fractal of inexpressible beauty, even without the little graphics on new ones, depicting 2s, 2p electrons and the like.. Liberty Valence? :) Ashton "Mediocrity is a vice of the doomed. We look at a bright, bright future in which every child is above average - and we will continue to drop the average until that lofty goal is achieved." Alan Schwartz via DeSitter

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