Post #8,924
9/13/01 2:46:05 PM
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For those asking Why?
[link|http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,551036,00.html|Some insight].
Nothing excuses the actions of the terrorists.
But we really ought to reflect for a bit on why we USA citizens are such targets. I think the author is right, we've not been doing a good job of curbing our bulldog.
I'm certainly at a loss as to why we are refusing to sell food and medicine to our nearest [link|http://www.cuba.com/|carribean neighbor] when we have a [link|http://www.cuba.com/guantanamo/index1.htm|military base] in their country.
We've likely got plenty of other items to answer for too.
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Post #8,928
9/13/01 3:09:05 PM
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That's not insight. That's left wing bias. (nomsg)
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,961
9/13/01 7:18:21 PM
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It has some factual errors, but to dismiss it...
(Apparently re details of any previous direct US - bin Laden relationship, for just the obvious one.)
NOTHING is unbiased. So, you mean to dismiss all the points mentioned, as 'left-wing'? (WTF That means anymore: divide all of humanity into Left and Right -- is that doggerel still around?)
If we are to learn *nothing* from this - except to hunt down One Bad Guy\ufffd and a few of his direct nodes, then prepare for WW-III. We have as much to learn here, as to preach / teach - for damn sure. We either learn to listen, for once, or watch matters deteriorate further.
With Dubya's 9th grade command of language and - enough.. folks who would remain determinedly anti-clueful re the roots of anti-American feelings of all varieties: this opportunity for actual worldwide concerted effort -- can be wasted as surely as we wasted the opportunities to actually assist the ex-USSR. We became mere $-besotted carpetbaggers looking for free natural resources to exploit.
The present spirit of (Article 5 NATO) cooperation is a fragile thing IMhO. We may hope that sounder minds than that of the Resident of the United States, may prevail.
A.
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Post #8,930
9/13/01 3:10:24 PM
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I'm surprised.
Usually (I thought) you research more before blasting away.
In any event: Guantamo Bay is leased. I forget the exact terms - every year, we send the Cuban Government a check for the rent.
I'm certainly at a loss as to why we are refusing to sell food and medicine
Has nothing to do with the lease on the Base.
Addison
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Post #8,942
9/13/01 4:18:31 PM
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How much more research do I have to do?
I went there, I experienced both economies (the peso economy is difficult to get into without decent Spanish and persistence). I made use of their medical services (thank god for Argentinian antibiotics), I stayed with a woman who was a medical technologist. I discussed economic conditions with various people and I lost 10 pounds because I couldn't find any decent food with any regularity.
I think its very odd that we impose economic sanctions on them and still rent a military base from them. Of course, I think its equally odd that they continue to rent us the base. Its a bit like boycotting the local grocer because he refuses to offer organic produce, but still shoplifting TastyCakes out the back door.
I have it on good authority that the US gov wants to crack down on US citizens visiting Cuba. Why? Am I not free to travel anywhere on the planet I wish? America is about freedom, right?
Anyhow, Cuba is just one data point I have first hand experience with. I'm sure there's more.
I don't want to see just retribution. I want to see a mix of reform *and* retribution.
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Post #8,944
9/13/01 4:24:00 PM
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Re: How much more research do I have to do?
I think its very odd that we impose economic sanctions on them and still rent a military base from them. Of course, I think its equally odd that they continue to rent us the base. Its a bit like boycotting the local grocer because he refuses to offer organic produce, but still shoplifting TastyCakes out the back door.
Its called a "lease" Like China, and Hong Kong.
And as I understand it, they refuse to cash the check.
At least enough research to know that much, I would have expected.
I have it on good authority that the US gov wants to crack down on US citizens visiting Cuba. Why? Am I not free to travel anywhere on the planet I wish? America is about freedom, right?
Not legally, no. Not that I agree.
But there are lot of other opinions on Cuba. The Cubans in the family can do a much better job, but you'd stand a better chance of convicing them that the Pope is the Antichrist than weakening their stance on Castro and Cuba.
Addison
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Post #8,962
9/13/01 7:20:56 PM
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OK I looked up the terms of the "lease"
and I have to agree with Castro. The lease was likely extracted under pressure from an occupied country.
$4k per year (originally $2k in gold coin in the 1903 agreement) in perpetuity? The landlord can't unilaterally end the lease ever and there's no time limit?
Sorry man, thats not a lease, its captured territory with a token payment. No wonder they won't cash the check.
The US Gov is/has been an asshole to Cuba.
As far as making a law telling me where I can and can't go outside the country: Fuck You Uncle Sam. I go where I please. (Actually , this case has been won - you *can* go to Cuba - you may not trade with them -- spend US money - at least this is what my lawyer uncle tells me).
BTW, I honestly don't think anybody attacks democracy any more. I think they attack our rampant predatory capitalism. They hate us for the same reason we hate Microsoft - we don't play fair in the markets.
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Post #8,966
9/13/01 7:33:14 PM
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Close enough - seconded.
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