Huh?

Post #88,620 by broomberg 3/15/03 10:52:12 PM Reply	Huh? PS Do you ever spare a moment of pity for people 20 years from now who will realize that the genius Barry Roomberg's untouchable code has a key routine with a mistake in it? And there are now unknown dependencies on this error in the maestro's code, so you can't fix it! :-) Most of the time people use the term genius it is sarcastic. Should I be worried? Anyway, if I have code that outlives me, doubt I'll care that people can't change it. It should be ripped out and rewritten every 3 years anyway.
Post #88,626 by ben_tilly 3/15/03 11:21:02 PM Reply	Explanation... It was a reference back to [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=81278\|http://z.iwethey.org...w?contentid=81278] - and while we are referring back to that thread there is a point that I had which I never stated back then due to being too busy to get involved at the moment. My opinion is that you have mistaken the limitations of people who can survive the politics of your specific mainframe environment for the limitations of people who like to deal with mainframes. And if we can get her interested enough (and idle enough) to respond, my example of a mainframe person who demonstrates general competence by anyone's standards is Slugbug. That said, I suspect that there are many companies with established mainframe environments which resemble yours politically... I also note that Ovid started on mainframes, but he is not evidence against your thesis since he left that environment quite cheerfully when given the chance. Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #88,647 by gdaustin 3/16/03 12:10:37 AM Reply	I started on mainframes, too... I don't know if I'm up to the standard of SlugBug, but I did do 6 years of IBM 370 Assembler in a TPF and VM/CMS environment. After 6 years, I had enough and was given a chance to work with C language on IBM PC's, so I did. In the 80286/80386 era. Two years after learning C, I started learning C++. I did that for about 5 years, then wanted to learn Unix and databases, but my employer was happy to make me into a permanent Windows NT networking person. So I changed jobs, in about 3 months, I was proficient in Unix, and pretty decent in Sybase. Then I went to work for BEA, and realized that I knew nothing compared to the freakkin geniuses they had there. I learned completely new coding techniques, to get portable code in C between AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, and even Windows NT. Something that still can't really be done in C++. But I did C++, too, and continued in the career. Then I got a chance to do a big Unix/NT integration with C and Tuxedo and MQSeries, and mainframe interfaces in COBOL and XML. That was very cool, took a year. Now, I've spent the last 1 1/2 years learning Java and DB2. I'm pretty decent at that, too. But, for all that experience, I do think that fear stops most organizations from progressing and there are examples today of companies who won't be around in 5 years, because they cling to technology that time clearly has passed by. The airline/travel industry is particularly at risk, because they are still dependent on TPF (Transaction Processing Facility), when the last known updates for it from IBM were probably sometime in the early 1990's, and only after American, United, Delta, etc. BEGGED them to continue the O/S support. Now, someone needs to rewrite the major travel reservations systems like Apollo, SABRE, and Worldspan into Unix technology, but now there's no money to support such an effort. So, I fear the entire airline/travel technology industry will die off, until some brave soul enters the market with new technology. First small beans, then in about 5 years, they will dominate the marketplace. The bottom line is that as long as the business model works, people will keep things the way they are. As soon as the model shifts fundamentally, then it's a WHOLE NEW BALL GAME. Recessions are wonderful tools for creating a whole new ball game, because the economics make the old model flat out impossible.
Post #88,700 by slugbug 3/16/03 5:13:56 PM Reply	Um.... ....who ya' callin' a mainframe person? :-) Sure, it's in my bag of tricks, but one has to grow and keep skill levels consistent with what is in demand in the marketplace. Not sure if I understand all of the parameters in Barry's shop, but I'll venture a guess that there is a culture of fear element present which likely permeates from above. In cases where fear is part of the culture, it is often necessary to build and demonstrate a working prototype that involves differing technologies so as to open eyes. Has this been attempted? Also, most mainframe shops that I'm aware of are adopting the plethora of new technologies now available for big iron systems. Has this been explored? Some examples: [link\|http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/os/linux/\|http://www-1.ibm.com...zseries/os/linux/] [link\|http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/software/java/\|http://www-1.ibm.com...es/software/java/] My $.02 -Slugbug If you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right. -Henry Ford
Post #88,704 by ben_tilly 3/16/03 5:42:07 PM Reply	You know, use and like mainframes That is what I meant by a mainframe person. You also know, use, and like a ton of other technologies. :-) Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #88,709 by slugbug 3/16/03 6:00:14 PM Reply	Categorization is a dangerous thing IME, people who categorize themselves as mainframe people usually only have knowledge and skill in that area with little or no desire to learn other things. On the other hand, "technologists" can and often do have mainframe skill along with knowledge and experience in a variety of other areas. -Slugbug If you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right. -Henry Ford
Post #88,713 by ben_tilly 3/16/03 6:08:58 PM Reply	Exclusive categorization is dangerous IMO Since it is possible to know many different topics, it is possible for a person to be categorized as knowing multiple topics. ;-) Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]

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