Post #80,661
2/10/03 3:24:07 PM
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Addendum.
I do not blame the US for the invasion of Kuwait. I am, however, capable of understanding the 180 done so fast by the US that it could have broken her neck. During the 80's, our government was claiming that Saddam was "the leading force for democracy" in the region. We sold him biological weapons to use on the Kurds and Iranians and didn't complain about it - not even when Rumsfeld met Saddam to shake his hand. We're hypocrites. And if you can't see that, you really are off in la-la land.
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Post #80,666
2/10/03 3:42:48 PM
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Wow...
talk about completely unrelated points.
In the mid-eighties the Hussein government was considered moderate. Compared to its neighbors it certainly was moderate. Aside from the turf war with Iran there didn't seem to be any reason to think otherwise.
Hindsight is 20/20. And given what we know now...its pretty certain that we wouldn't have given lab samples of this crap to the University. (or are you claiming something else?..if so..please substantiate)
The only way to guarantee that this doesn't happen anywhere in the future is to completely close our borders to every country. After all...who knows what they will be like 10/20/30 years from now...and that harmless fertilizer plant we helped them build to feed their people...modified to build explosives...we should have known...we should always know...we should be clairvoyant...it would make things SO much easier.
Acceptable trade?
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #80,697
2/10/03 5:19:43 PM
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Ah.. the Pontius Pilate lateral arabesque -
"I wash my hands".
Because NoOne Can foresee all possible future scenarios, we may close eyes to all aspects of a "helpful agreement with a local tool for our purposes". Yes, this would excuse Cuba (a revolution required to oust US gangsters), Chile (we think this guy might be a Commie), Nicaragua, [other local 'neighbours' we have 'helped' to a new US-friendly dictatorship].
It would also excuse our utter indifference to Rwanda, East Timor yada yada.
Yup you're Right, Beep: the safest course for the world would be to put up that fence around US - for our safety and convenience. And theirs. With friends like us...
Nobody's life liberty and wallet is safe while the legislature is in session US is playing World Cop, recognizes no world legal authority but its own and decides when it wants to invade to "improve things for The Peepul There" (Except Rwanda, E. Timor, various African Idi-Amin clones et al.)
OK - time for The Fence Party to coagulate around your brilliant suggestion.
It's Just the Right- Thing To Do\ufffd, while waiting for The Rapture.. We already gots The Tribulations and the Speaking in Tongue-lashings.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction.
-- Albert Einstein
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Post #80,699
2/10/03 5:27:39 PM
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Ah...so you thought that..
...a suggestion or a specific course of action?
Bzzzt...wrong.
You see...we venture forth, offer assistance, establish allies...and then every once in a while we may find ourselves surprised...some of our aid will be used against us...this is the price for NOT closing the borders and washing our hands of it.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that as a risk.
It does, however, lead to having armchair quarterbacking going on 15 years after the fact...when its very simple to realize...after your men were killed with your own weapons...that maybe selling them wasn't such a great idea. (and the only way to prevent it is to NOT do it...something you obviously see as distasteful)
But your invented persona of me would never have such a realistic view of the world...so how could I assume you would understand such a basic point.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #80,713
2/10/03 5:52:43 PM
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Funny thing about our 'foresight'. Never mind '15 years'
No 20/20 needed: it's NOW.
Our Leader has stated overtly, and on many occasions confirmed with slightly altered phraseology:
The US does not care what *Anyone* else in the world thinks, including the UN - and clearly including the demographic 'opinions' within even the few supposed remaining 'ally-Governments', re our now inexorable first-strike.
Many, many have failed to see the urgency of this action, on through today's date - per se and comparative to other world problem situations also developing.
I call this a pattern of Imperialistic behaviour and of disdain for the opinions of (billions?) - including US citizens, as regards our own new problems of Constitutional erosion. This ain't about foresight - it is about present-sight.
WTF - this is all moot. We can all watch the phenomenon unfold.
(Best get your overseas flying in reel soon, y'know?) Any bets on the shape of the web in 6 mos? in one year? as received in the US.
Ashton
PS - invented persona? Hah: you will advocate status quo on every issue, predictably. Of course you are merely playing Devil's advocate. Sure, that's it. Hmmmm whatever happened to that female officer-pilot who wouldn't wear a sack? It seems that more than just us loonies noticed that which you deemed silly at the time. Persona ?
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Post #80,717
2/10/03 5:57:02 PM
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Whatever you say.
Because precious little of it has to do with the above thread.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #80,722
2/10/03 6:04:20 PM
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Then why are we not invading Syria as well?
e are still using the same old, we will ignore your despostism because it suits our short term needs. As far as the pro Israel position, Israel would be better served by invading Syria than Iraq
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #80,807
2/10/03 10:52:20 PM
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Ask Bush^H^H^H^H Rumsfeld.
How many lives per gallon?
--Sign outside of various churches
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Post #80,724
2/10/03 6:05:29 PM
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Obtuse still? *Pattern of behaviour* is the constant.
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Post #80,726
2/10/03 6:08:48 PM
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Yes you are still obtuse.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #80,738
2/10/03 6:30:07 PM
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Missed again: I'm scalene,
as anyone on the Trilateral Commission would know. (Of course, you do live in New Jersey..)
Gotta go - organize The Fence Party.
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Post #80,745
2/10/03 6:48:12 PM
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No apparent need to do anything but repeat my previous post.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #80,792
2/10/03 9:51:51 PM
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I can't think of an exclamatory strong enough
You see...we venture forth, offer assistance, establish allies...and then every once in a while we may find ourselves surprised...some of our aid will be used against us (emphasis added) This is irony, right? How many lives per gallon?
--Sign outside of various churches
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Post #80,809
2/10/03 10:57:44 PM
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It is borne out in history...
...that in many cases our assistance has been used against us later. Japan is another example.
Point being...do we stop offering aid and support...or do we continue offering aid and support...knowing that every once in a while its gonna jump up and bite us in the ass.
Close the borders or continue to be an interested, active world citizen?
There really isn't a whole lot of middle ground in this choice.
Oh sure...we all have our "causes"...and we can't be all things to everyone..which means some peoples "causes" are left wanting...but we as a country are either out there..or we're not.
If you go hunting for "irony"...you will find it often.
This is not a blanket absolution for some of the stupid shit that we've done...just the either/or that is presented...we do or we don't.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #80,999
2/11/03 7:31:47 PM
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Boy, there's a euphemism for you.
continue to be an interested, active world citizen? Don't think I've ever heard "imperialist" described so loftily.
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