I don't think universal care will work in the US until

Post #72,647 by Another Scott 1/5/03 10:54:34 AM Reply	I don't think universal care will work in the US until there's a reduction in physician salaries. I haven't checked into this in detail, but it's my impression that in countries that have universal care, the spread between average professional salaries and average physician salaries is much smaller than in the US. As long as physicians are near the top of the "food chain" in the US, medical care will be expensive - too expensive for universal care. I think it's another reflection of the old supply-and-demand bugaboo. As long as there's a restricted supply of inexpensive medical care, and a steadily increasing demand, there's going to be ever increasing costs. Helping people buy insurance, or somehow requiring them to have insurance (which will only increase fraud because the poor and near-poor still won't be able to afford insurance) won't change this demand equation. Naturally, and understandably, physicians don't like this equation. I think drugs and advanced technology play a role in the increases as well, but not as big as that played by physician salaries. Hey Todd - what are home-visit physician salaries like in Paris? Bluke - what are physician salaries like in Israel? Thanks. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #72,649 by ben_tilly 1/5/03 10:59:56 AM Reply	That I do not believe When I last checked (early 90's I admit) physicial salaries in the US and Canada were not that different by specialty. The biggest single difference was the balance of generalists to specialists. Yet Canada has universal health care and the US does not. In fact had Clinton followed the Canadian legislative model, we would right now have universal health care in large parts of the US. How? Very simple. Oregon and Vermont were both looking to implement universal healthcare. All that the US had to do was pass a federal bill saying that any state which got universal healthcare gets healthy transfer payments. Then let a few early adopters work out what works in the US, and the other states would fall into line. But no. Instead Hilary had to try to micromanage the whole lot by trying to mandate HMOs. :-( Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #72,868 by bbronson 1/6/03 9:02:01 AM Reply	2 points re Oregon and Hillary Several years ago when Oregon was putting together their plan, I read that ranked all maladies and drew a line at about number 800. If you suffered from maladies 1 to 800, you were covered. If you suffered from maldies 801 to infinity, you were out of luck. That's rationing, and I have yet to see a proponent of universal coverage address the rationing that will occur. You only listed one of the 2 big problems with HillaryCare: mandated HMO system. The other was outlawing all medical care outside of the HillaryCare system. Another problem (I don't know if it's big or lesser) was quotas on the types of doctors ("We have too many ear, nose and throat specialists, so you'll be a proctologist. Next applicant?") Would you like the government telling you that, if you want to work in IT, you must be a VB programmer, and that it would be illegal for you to do SmallTalk consulting on the side? The big question is, if inflation is at ~3%, why are health insurance premiums going up ~25-50%? I don't think doctor salaries are the primary cause. Brian Bronson
Post #72,952 by ben_tilly 1/6/03 1:29:33 PM Reply	Question Have you actually looked at how universal care works outside of the US in any of the countries that have it? And by look I do not mean digest the usual ration of misrepresented horror stories that get repeated every so often. About your question. There are several answers. A lot of it is related to paperwork overhead. A lot of it is legal. The fundamental problem is that when it is your life and death at stake, you will generally pay anything you own for care. That is the potential demand that the healthcare system is attempting to expand into... Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #72,669 by boxley 1/5/03 12:33:15 PM Reply	physician salaries are slightly less than mine in many cases. My last gig 40.72 per hr. physician at an urgent care practice 25.85 per hr up to 35 per hr. Yes many make oodles more but a lot dont. With the cost of a visit by my old hmo negotiated to $30 the office rent, 2 nurses and a clerk plus outsourced billing because of horrors of billing insurance plus malpractice insurance you tell me how many visits a year my Doc needs to break even. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
Post #73,390 by mmoffitt 1/8/03 12:39:26 PM Reply	Damn, you make a lot of money. The average clinician (not "Doctor", doctors write and defend dissertations) average six figures or more the first year. (see for example: [link\|http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary1.html\|First year Clinician salaries.]) But things improve over time, after three years they're more likely to average more than 200,000 than less than that (see also for example: [link\|http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary2.html\|After Three Years, the Pigs get fatter.]) Clinicians in this country are VASTLY overcompensated for their almost uncanny rote-memorization skills.
Post #73,404 by boxley 1/8/03 2:14:13 PM Reply	so the docs I talk to are stupid or lying? could be. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
Post #73,410 by mmoffitt 1/8/03 2:41:10 PM Reply	Not knowing them, I give 'em the benefit of the doubt. In some areas, clinicians make a lot less than the norm. But overall, clinicians remain among the highest paid people on the planet. And that's the lure for most (not all) of them. That's why it was much, much easier to get into Med School in the 1980's (almost half of all applicants accepted). That's when the money was in MBA's. Then the economy began to tank, so the money chasers decided to make their millions the old fashioned way: by becoming a physician.
Post #72,904 by bluke 1/6/03 10:48:52 AM Reply	Physicians salaries in Israel ... are not high. I don't have any exact figures but they are much closer to the average worker's salary then in the US.

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