When ever in the past 2000 years did China *ever* *once* attack outside its borders or immediate sphere of hegemony. ?????. Yes they invaded Korea on a few occasions in that period and yes Tibet was invaded by China but both these countries are asian and within China's sphere of influence. The single biggest criticism of China by all historians was that the Mandarin class were so arrogant that they had no interest in the world outside China. China's greatest achievements when it sent a massive fleet into SE Asia in the 1400s (ships so big that today three of them they matched the size of small aircraft carriers). He reached India & Arabia & set up bases there.That admiral is almost unknown today because after all he achieved, the Mandarins decided he could add nothing to China's long term interests & the fleet was mothballed after he had done 30 years of travel & trade. Ad nothing has changed since in terms of Chinese imperialism or world aggression.

You call the country RED CHINA - that is just so much garbage. Although I am many years older than you & served in the military in the west when RED CHINA was our enemy (have relatives who fought the in Korea), but even as old as I am I am not so out of touch that I call it that any more. You should take the time to go visit the place before posting what seems essentially propaganda.

Here are some realpolitik facts - America will invade China or Taiwan long before the Chinese even have a quarter of the ability to attack US.

DSM

(#1 - cooled down & toned down - sorry the tone got so rough)

Amir River, wasn't that where the Soviets sought to humiliate the under fed half armed Chinese in a jointly disputed border zone (certainly wasnt an Invasion). If I recall correctly the out gunned Chinese use wooden sticks to fight the much better armed Russians who shot holes in the Chinese. Oops of course - I am thinking back to the 1960s/70s. Nup not aware of any major Russian Chinese invasions in that area lately.

Re Trade in Washington in 1400s, that could only have been Admiral Zheng and his 7 voyages (as mentioned in my original post). Have seen drawings of his ships & they were awsum for their day. But, there is no mention that I can find about Zheng ever reaching Nth Am.

Perhaps this was someone else but I can find who ?

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[link|http://www.chinapage.com/zhenghe.html|Another item & same map of Admiral Zheng's know voyages (no Amerian here)]

[link|http://planet.time.net.my/CentralMarket/melaka101/chengho.htm|Another item & same map of Admiral Zheng's know voyages]

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[link|http://www.oceansonline.com/zheng.htm|Voyages of Admiral Zheng]
The intro ...

"Our history of oceanography would not be complete without reference to the contributions that the Chinese have made to ocean exploration. While not as well-known as some of their other scientific and technological contributions, the Chinese own the distinction of assembling the largest fleet to ever sail on the ocean."


etc: etc:

"During his 28 year naval career, Admiral Zheng visited 37 countries, traveled around the tip of Africa into the Atlantic Ocean and commanded a single fleet whose numbers surpassed the combined fleets of all Europe. Between 1405 and 1433, at least 317 ships and 37,000 men were under his command. The flagship of the fleet was a nine-masted vessel measuring 440 feet, nearly 1.5 times the length of a football fields. Traveling with him was Sanbao who created a set of 24 maps praised for their accuracy. Zheng's journeys also stimulated a number of important maritime inventions, including central rudders, watertight compartments and various new types of sails. Perhaps more importantly, his voyages demonstrated the power of the Chinese civilization and yielded many important liasons between China and other nations."

"What makes Zheng's career even more remarkable is his rags-to-riches life story. Born as Ma He in 1371 to poor Muslim parents in Southwest China, he was captured as a young boy by the Chinese Army and castrated, as many prisoners of that time were so treated. Nonetheless, he dedicated himself to his studies, learning several languages and philosophy. At the age of ten, he was hired by a prince, who overthrew the emperor and rewarded Zheng He with command of the fleet."

"Admiral Zheng died in 1433 at the age of 60 on a return voyage from Africa. While his achievements are little known in the West (who give perhaps undue praise to Christopher Columbus), there are at least six images of Admiral Zheng preserved in temples."

"Soon after the Admiral's death, political changes in China diminished the importance of the Navy. It has not been the same since."

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Earliest evidence I can find is of De Soto in Nth Am in 1540 ...

[link|http://www.floridahistory.com/|Spanish in Nth America]

Cheers

Doug

"More evidence, according to the program writers, can be found when one goes to
Mexico and examines the Maya ruins. There are some striking similarities in sculpture
types between the early Chinese and Maya. Dragon types and others were presented.
There are also a minority of sculptures that show gods and men with distinctively Oriental
features and facial shapes. That is is distinct contrast to known Maya facial
reconstructions. Further, there was one sculpture presented that showed a man with
obvious Oriental features and a beard. Since it is widely accepted that Native Americans
were without facial hair, this is an oddity to be pondered."


The above has long been a mystery re the Olmec statues (big heads) but I had thought that Olmec culture was over 2500 years old.

I also learned just this week, that researchers in New Zealand have genetic evidence that the Maori polynesians came from China (but their evidence points to Taiwan). I had long believed they were from Southern China but mixed with the Phillipine natives & then journeyed into Polynesia.

The Cook Island Maoris tend to have slightly oriental eyes but that appears to be a recent historical development (visiting Chinese seamen). Not unlike how the Hawaian appearance is now impacted by the Japanese imported their in the 1700s.

Cheers Doug

more up-to-date and more accurately reflects how some countries see America and many of its actions around the world today.

We surely all know by now that US is the world's *only* superpower and when people in the US start implying or directly criticising a smaller weaker country of being beligerent (when we all plainly know US could swat them in short order) one has to question who is the aggressor.

This applies to the now demonised Saddam Hussien of Iraq as much as to the RED baiting remarks in the original post, about China.

I am one who is generally grateful that US won the cold war. US are my countries friends, but, that doesn't mean I have to like what I see as bullying or barefacedly beligerent acts against smaller weaker countries as a means of keeping them under control.

I posted this item elsewhere but will repeat it here -

"Late 1940s - after WWII British power begins to wane and America steps in. George Kennan, U.S. State Department stated in 1948," The US has about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its population. In this situation we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and daydreaming, and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford the luxury of altruism and world benefaction. We should cease to talk about such vague and unreal objectives as human rights, the raising of living standards and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.""


This above quote clearly and accurately outlines why Bush's administration is behaving as it is internationally.

Here is an interesting and seemily very fair perspective on some US actions in light of the reality that it *is* the world's only super power.

[link|http://www.spacedaily.com/news/bmdo-01zzq.html|China fears post cold war superpower USA]

Question I would ask is are their fears unjustified or very easy to understand. To truly answer this one needs the ability to wear the other persons shoes.

Cheers

Doug Marker