Americans think Americans have poor morals

Post #39,825 by marlowe 5/24/02 12:43:02 PM Reply	Americans think Americans have poor morals [link\|http://gallup.com/poll/releases/pr020521.asp\|Makes you wonder what their criterion is] Excerpt: PRINCETON, NJ -- Despite Americans' overall satisfaction with the state of the nation these days, a recent Gallup poll finds that the public is fairly critical of the state of moral values. Fewer than one in five adults give the country high ratings on this score, and most see values deteriorating rather than improving. Negative ratings of moral values are particularly high among older Americans, but women, highly religious people, and self-described "conservatives" are also critical. According to Gallup's May 6-9 survey on values and beliefs, just 18% of Americans characterize moral values in the United States as "excellent" or "good," while 41% consider them "only fair" and 40% call them "poor." I say: This ability to self-criticise is a hopeful sign. But this talk about sexual mores, death culture and cloning is obsessing with the symptoms. The root problem is a decline in self respect. Fix that, and the symptoms will clear themselves up. I wonder if 9/11 will prove to be an inflection point? We've seen what we get for being spineless. A general stiffening of the backbone, in response to this particular threat, may well help other aspects of our malaise as well. Oh, and, for all our faults, and they are many, the rest of the world really is worse. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes. If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
Post #39,828 by Brandioch 5/24/02 1:20:18 PM Reply	Worse? Morals? And a terrorist attack will help? Maybe I'm a bit confused, but aren't we killing innocents in Afghanistan because of the attack on the WTC? Negative ratings of moral values are particularly high among older Americans, but women, highly religious people, and self-described "conservatives" are also critical. Translation: People with sticks up their asses feel that everyone else is immoral. The fascinating thing is that so many people feel that everyone else has poor morals. But the "nation" is defined as everyone else. Despite these differences, there is general agreement among Americans of all ages that moral values in the country as a whole are getting worse rather than better. Six in 10 young adults feel this way (61%), compared with 67% of middle-aged Americans and 76% of those aged 65 and older. So, if we look at only young adults, 6 in 10 feel that the other 4 are ruining it for the whole country. Hmmm, that doesn't seem right to me. Wouldn't the actual result be that the morals for 61% of the people in that group were IMPROVING? Let's try this with something else. Savings. Suppose 61% thought that people were saving less than they should. So, these people would save as much as they should? Which would mean that, better than 1/2 of the people were saving as much as they should. Which would mean that a minority percentage were just messing up their own lives. sigh "morals" Another meaningless word. But everyone knows when someone else doesn't meet the moral standard.
Post #39,918 by orion 5/25/02 5:12:37 PM Reply	It just figures the big crimes being commited by Enron executives and other wealthy people show how little morals they have when money is involved. But what am I saying, we have a baseball team that would rather the State spent the money budgeted for highway repair and hospitals and medicade to build them a new stadium instead. How is that for morals for you? *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,965 by boxley 5/26/02 10:39:11 AM Reply	Of course morals in this country suck! When the Deputies were hauling shitheads out of my house, my neighbor told me that the parents were called to pick them up and given a 2 cent tour of my living room. The parents would scream at the kid about how they have to work and dont have time for this shit. Not one of those 7 parents have called, written, dropped a note or otherwise acknowledged any wrong doing. If it was my kid I would have left a note on the door to call me and would help them clean it up. Buncha lowrent upper income cocksuckers around here. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #39,986 by orion 5/26/02 5:16:41 PM Reply	Career Upper Income Parents I suppose they could have helped you clean up the mess their offspring made, but for some reason they won't admint to any wrongdoing by their offspring or the way they raised their offspring. Besides they could just buy off the judge if you sued them. Talk about me not having responsibility, look at them! At least I clean up after my son, and discipline him when he does wrong. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,998 by Ashton 5/26/02 9:42:01 PM Reply	As above so below. Ancient Sufi er Truth. Corp-Am sets the tone for a nation of the sheeplike; Billy taught Corp-Am precisely how to steal Billions without a single by-your-leave or any other sign of human emotion. BB (before..) Corp-Am made the effort of at least token gestures of humanity. Now they have proof that this inefficiency is just a dispensable frill. Our Heroes include the largest crooks of our caste of the many who behave like common thieves, but with larger stakes. I doubt that these 'parents' spared more than 30 mSec to reflect upon their raising of a carbon-copy brat, soon to join the others - let alone noticed the most recent tangible result. So it was nothing personal, Bill - most of these lack person-hood in the usual sense. But you knew all this stuff :( Ashton
Post #40,213 by screamer 5/28/02 3:55:20 PM Reply	What can we say, we got no respect for iselfs Marlowe, You write: "The root problem is a decline in self respect. Fix that, and the symptoms will clear themselves up." When did this decline in self respect start? In the '60's, the 20's? I really wonder when it happened... It seems everybody seems to remember the "good old days" when everyone loved eachother, had a BMW and had Self Respect to spare, but I'll be damned if I ever saw it... I must have missed it. I went to a site on your home page and found this... [link\|http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/lig/b/i/billfall/mission/mission.html\|http://personal.atl...mission.html] What I found most interesting is the mission statement... The following actions will not be looked on favorably Baiting others for no good reason/Posting unsubstantiated rumors Just plain troublemaking/Openly disrespecting this board This is important so read carefully. IF YOU ARE A FULL-FLEDGED AND UNQUESTIONED SUPPORTER OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS GOVERNMENT, THEN YOU ARE WELCOME. HOWEVER, IF YOUR INTENT IS TO COME ON THIS BOARD AND CRITICIZE OUR PRESIDENT AND/OR THIS NATION THEN DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND MOVE ON. America has a fight on its hands and it\ufffds going to take every one of us cooperating and supporting our government to win this war. If your intent is to deal in anti-American comments, don\ufffdt. And we don\ufffdt care to read any of your opinions about freedom of speech. We look on criticism of the United States at this time in our nation\ufffds history as treason, not freedom of speech. Above all else we believe in liberty and freedom and we will be fighting that battle even while we fight the terrorists who would destroy us. But we will fight for liberty and freedom within the bounds of all out support of our nation during its time of distress. This mission statement is NOT DEBATABLE. The only way I can explain such a decline in morals such as are demonstrated by that site and reading some of the posts therein, is that any damned fool can create an internet page and claim whatever the hell he/she wants to. If he/she disagrees, he/she claims it's unAmerican and yanks the post. Or maybe it's just more clever than the dictators post... Yank. I have never seen anything as un-American as this mission statement. Is there a national "unAmerican" board that determines when an "illegal" post winds up on the board? Or is it just some self righteous "dude" that moderates the board? Don't get me wrong, it is a "free country" and every nut gets his say... Just not on that board... Just certain nuts... In any case, I can't explain a moral decline like I saw on that site. Maybe the posters there lack self respect? Is this the place where you learn "new ideas"? At the risk of a self-imposed Godwin, the Nazi's would be proud of a mission statement like that. I can't let this go...from that mission statement it says, We look on criticism of the United States at this time in our nation\ufffds history as treason, not freedom of speech. You know what, "who the fuck cares" what people like this look on anything? Are these folks History scholars? Pyschic History Scholars? Do they have some type of ability to see into the future that this time in our nation's history requires giving up FREEDOM OF SPEECH? That it's important to view freedom of speech as "TREASON"? That viewpoint, in and of itself, IS treasonous in this country in MY opinion... At least I know where you get some of your views now... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "As people assemble, civilization Is trying to find a new way to die, But killing is really, merely scene changer,all men are bored, with other men's lives" ... "We all know success, when we all find our own dreams And our love is enough to knock down any walls And the future's been seen, as men try to realize The simple secret of the note in us all in us all" P. Townshend - Pure and Easy
Post #40,214 by boxley 5/28/02 4:02:04 PM Reply	The mission statement sounds religious in nature not political. The same thing that the motivated the purveyors of "strange fruit" in the South. I have the right to say any dang thing I want and will defend that right for myself and others. Even sheep can be dangerous when gathered and directed in large hers. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #40,218 by screamer 5/28/02 4:57:48 PM Reply	Mega dittos, Bill... I don't know why I got tweeked off, but it seems to me that there is a plethora of Thinkspeak coming from everywhere... I do understand that these are trying times for this country, but it doesn't require that we STOP BEING AMERICANS... I've always been a patriot, I served my country, etc... I also understand that love of country is akin to love of wife - you are only infatuated if you love her and ignore her warts. You have to love HER, warts and all to truly be in love. I've been on boards that operated in the manner that TGTBTU does, but it was never STATED... What ever happened to the "good old days" when unpopular views were simply shouted down? Whatever happened to shunning? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Bleating and babbling we fell on his neck with a scream Wave upon wave of demented avengers March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream Have you heard the news? The dogs are dead You better stay home And do as you're told Get out of the road if you want to grow old" Pink Floyd - Sheep
Post #40,231 by orion 5/28/02 8:00:05 PM 5/28/02 8:02:46 PM Reply	Land of milk and honey, streets paved with gold that is what the immigrants were told about the USA. Then they got here, looked for jobs, and tried to make a living. Not finding milk and honey, nor gold streets. All the while the natives of this land got their land taken over, etc. The truth is it was never the good old days, it was just selective memory from the old timers. They only want to remember the good things and the good times, and forget about the bad things and the bad times. Get real, it may sck here in the USA, but not as much as some other places in the world. Some places may be better, but very few. The old USA has been going downhill for a while now, started in the 20th century real early, but it was there somewhat in the 19th century. In the 18th century our forefathers saw it, but decided not to do anything about it and use it to form a revolution. We got more rights, and priviliages, but traded one curropt system for another. Slowly the curroption built and people took advantage of their wealth. First it was the slave owners who used slave labor for their business, then the Native Americans got shafted when people needed their land, then businesses got rich off the hard work of others. Then we came up with unions, minimum wage, child labor laws, etc to make it better for a while, but soon that was ruined when they moved those jobs out of the country. In short, it never was the good old days, just a less shttier day than before. Yes we have people here who are low in morals, but also in other countries as well. The USA has no monopoly on morally chaleged people. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.* Edited by orion May 28, 2002, 08:02:46 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #40,239 by Brandioch 5/28/02 9:53:48 PM Reply	All systems are corrupt. The systems are run by people. People are corruptable. Our system has one huge flaw: Money is power. Our system has one huge advantage: Educated individuals can ensure the system doesn't get too corrupt. Unfortunately, we've progressed too far, too fast in the personal comfort department. We have a nation of fat, dumb and happy "citizens". I say "citizens" because they are little more than consumer-sheep. But they don't have to STAY that way. But they WANT to stay that way. Hence, we have corruption. We have fewer than a handful of individuals who can see beyond themselves.
Post #40,246 by orion 5/28/02 10:46:14 PM Reply	They want, or THEY want? Do the Consumer-Sheep want to stay that way, or do the holders of 90% of the capital want them to stay that way? How do I avoid becoming a consumer-sheep or break out of the cycle? I am tired of being poor and working too hard to make someone else rich. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #40,270 by Brandioch 5/29/02 12:33:14 AM Reply	Both The few alphas out there are happier with consumer-sheep. The consumer-sheep are happy if they're fat, warm and dumb. Now, an example of someone who broke out of the cycle is Ghandi. He made a positive change in many people's lives. But he was not rich or fat and he was killed in the end. If you're tired of being poor, go alpha. Feed off of the consumer-sheep. Otherwise, your only option is to abandon the material things you think you need. Look into voluntary simplicity. You can work on losing your consumer'ness or your sheep'ness first. Either one seems to lead to the other. But it isn't easy. The popular culture is centered around consumption. We go out for dinner and a movie and so on.
Post #40,571 by marlowe 5/30/02 2:48:04 PM Reply	You know full well where I stand on free speech. And they know on that board as well. I've agreed to meet them halfway, for the time being. That is to say, to exercize a certain subtlety, perhaps even sneakiness. To find and exploit any loopholes in the law. I consider it a challenge. All things considered, it's a lot less bad than the Jacobin mob censorship on K5. But IWETHEY is better still. If only IWETHEY were much bigger (and otherwise unchanged) I might never go anywhere else. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes. If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
Post #40,572 by boxley 5/30/02 2:52:29 PM Reply	keep spreading the word do you link back to here when you post elsewhere? thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #40,724 by marlowe 5/31/02 12:28:40 PM Reply	I did once, but hesistate to do it regularly. I'm not sure they'd be able to take the heat here. We're a self-selecting group, and they're another self-selecting group, and the criteria are different. As screamer pointed out, they're a bit, um, thin skinned. I have to tone my style way down there. Besides, a lot of what we say here would just whoosh right over their heads. They're not geeks. They don't really grok the computer subculture. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes. If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
Post #40,778 by Ashton 5/31/02 6:37:29 PM Reply	Minor definition quibble.. Recall that geek (or nerd, boffin in UK, brain yada yada) are all pejoratives - signifying (in US at least) an underlying and traditional anti-intellectualism in the mass. Whether from a kind of envy or more likely - a sense of 'weirdness' = "I can't understand what these folks Do with their brains! But they ain't Like Me": It ain't about "computers" or IT - it's about Everything which is more complex than, Push to turn on, and the fact that Some folks know what that switch started 'happening'. (Methinks there's also a lot of other visceral freight within the Murican-variety of this Me/Them dichotomy, but that's for some Psych. thread.) Ashton
Post #40,640 by Ashton 5/30/02 9:34:51 PM Reply	Oddly enough - agreement :-\ufffd If it's subversive to undermine those who would undermine all-the-rest, let the annual Subversion Medal awards begin. (Motif: a dragon is depicted, guarding his trove of maidens and gold - as a sneaky guy neatly severs his gonads - with a sharpened quill-pen ;-) Besides - it's bloody traditional. 'Member Dick Tuck, holding up that sign at Nixon rallies? What About The Hughes Loan ??? OK - be sure to wear fatigues, keep shoes shined and quote George Patton where appropriate. Ashton
Post #42,592 by marlowe 6/17/02 10:48:02 AM Reply	Update: I think I'm gonna get kicked off soon. I took a position in favor of business practises being constrained by basic ethical considerations, and discovered that Mr. Fallin takes a dim view of such a thing. It got a little pointed. Oh, well. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes. If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
Post #42,648 by screamer 6/17/02 4:03:01 PM Reply	You tried!!! The problem with groups like that, is you don't really know what's in the Kool Aid until it's too late. This here newsgroup, this is the REAL America, with all us buffoons standing on our soapboxes shouting eachother down. This is what I believe the founding fathers had in mind :-) (twisted bastards!) As I said in another post in this thread, I've unknowing gone onto boards like that which were "moderated"... I seriously have never seen anything like the rules on that board stated upfront... I have to give the board credit, they aren't coy or shy about who's welcome. In a way, I wish most "moderated" boards that operate in the same way would just copy his rules... The good news is, once a board like that gets to selective, it slowly dies off. Jim - See the news? Bob - Saw it. Jim - Think we out to bomb them? Bob - Yep Jim - Yep Bob - Yep Jim - Yep Bob - Think I hear the kids... Elvis special on Jim - Yep Bob - Yep It's always good to have someone to argue with if your going to have a discussion board. Dan - Yep Just a few thoughts, Screamer There's nothing in the streets Looks any different to me And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye And the parting on the left Are now parting on the right And the beards have all grown longer overnight P. Townshend - Won't Get Fooled Again
Post #40,649 by ben_tilly 5/30/02 10:25:55 PM Reply	My take on that quote I fully support the ideals that the USA stands for. Supporting those ideals is not consistent with supporting every opportunistic slimeball who stands up and purports to speak for the nation. Ditto for most of the slimeballs who are elected to run the country. Make that particularly for the ones who are elected to run the country. Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman

Welcome to IWETHEY!