What the no major media coverage of Dillon Taylor shooting really means.

Post #393,777 by mmoffitt 8/27/14 9:34:59 AM Reply	What the no major media coverage of Dillon Taylor shooting really means. A co-worker told me yesterday the story of the Salt Lake (apparently) unarmed White 20 year old being shot and killed by a Black police officer. The RW rags and (Rush Limbo, apparently) are claiming lack of coverage by major media outlets "shows the liberal bias" of major media outlets. It is true the story is not getting much attention. Despite the fact that the local CBS affiliate has run several stories on this ( See here, for example: http://kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_13113.shtml ) a search even today of cbsnews.com with the keywords "Salt Lake police shooting" and "Dillon Taylor" returns no results. Similarly, those phrases returned no results on cnn.com, abcnews.com and nbcnews.com as well. I think the criticism of the major news media outlets for failing to highlight this killing as much as the shooting in Missouri is justified. But I do not think that lack of coverage indicates a "liberal bias." To me, these shootings are indistinguishable from one another. They resulted not from racism (which is clearly the narrative being catered to in the Missouri reporting) but from the corruption of our police into a warrior culture determined to conquer their precincts - not protect them. The conversation about the police state should not be restricted to racism, the problem is far greater than just racism. It is that in our current police state, the police have mentally divided us. To a typical cop's mind, there is no such thing as a civilian anymore. Far too many of them think you're either a cop or a suspect. They do not consider themselves our protectors anymore, they are our internal warriors. They are taught in their academies that if a person ever fails to immediately follow one of their orders, they are to perceive that as a threat. In a society where there are almost as many private firearms as there are people, this idea is very dangerous and leads to the recent shootings in both Missouri and Salt Lake. Police all over this country need to be taught that there are very good reasons why our police force is a separate thing from our military. Our neighborhoods need their protection, we do not need them to conquer us. Not everyone they encounter is a suspect. Not everyone who fails to immediately follow one of their orders is going to attempt to kill them. They need to understand that we are not their subjects. And, most of all, they need to be reacquainted with the true purpose of any police force - they are their precincts guardians, not warriors. While it may be true that racism had something to do with the shooting in Missouri, it was not the root cause. As terrible a thing as racism is, the mentality of our police force poses a greater danger. It is a danger posed to every single citizen in our society, regardless of race.
Post #393,783 by boxley 8/27/14 10:37:00 AM Reply	well stated but if it does appear that it is them or us there is still further subdivisions of us based on ones skin color Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
Post #393,786 by mmoffitt 8/27/14 10:54:17 AM Reply	Don't disagree. But, even if you eliminate racism (hypothetically, of course) the cops/perps division would still exist and the threat of more shootings like the two I mentioned would persist.
Post #393,788 by Another Scott 8/27/14 11:12:13 AM Reply	4600 hits for "Dillon Taylor" in Google news. Compared to 6400 hits for "John Crawford" in Google news. Considering that Crawford was killed on August 5, and Taylor was killed on August 11, it doesn't seem to me that the amount of news coverage is likely to be dramatically different at the same point in the timeline. Of course, the right-wing Wurlitzer has started up now, so no doubt Taylor's case will get a lot more attention soon. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #393,790 by crazy 8/27/14 11:59:57 AM Reply	The Taylor case is a bit more reasonable The cops were responding to a man with a gun call. Which means they were primed for gun violence.
Post #393,793 by mmoffitt 8/27/14 1:02:27 PM Reply	They don't need calls for that.
Post #393,794 by mmoffitt 8/27/14 1:05:57 PM Reply	I didn't say "no one was paying attention." And of those hits you got, how many of them were of the wnd stripe? I was talking about major media outlets. Don't you think that given the proximity to the Crawford case the Taylor case would be more likely to be blasted about on a shorter timeline? All I'm saying is that cops propensity toward violence is not exclusively a cause of racist attitudes. IMHO, it's much, much deeper than that. Simplifying the cause of this phenomenon to simply a consequence of racism is missing the mark.
Post #393,797 by Another Scott 8/27/14 1:20:03 PM Reply	Trueism is true. Your original post said a bit more than "cops propensity toward violence is not exclusively a cause of racist attitudes" - it seems to me. But "exclusively" does a lot of heavy lifting there, and it isn't a word anyone should use (if they think about it more than a few seconds). IMHO. :-) Would the sentence be more, or less, true if "exclusively" were left out? RW rags and Limbaugh screams about lots of things, whether they're true or not. It's not news that too many cops are far too violent, and too many cops are racists. It's not news that non-blacks get killed or brutalized by cops, too. Examples of any type of excessive violence by police can be found, on any type of victim. Saying that a black on white shooting is not getting coverage by "major" news outlets is not a meaningful statement without doing a comparison to a roughly similar case of white on black. That's what my quick Google search did. I don't have the time to sort through the thousands of links to sort them into WND/Major vs Pravad/Minor or something. Feel free. ;-) FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #393,791 by pwhysall 8/27/14 12:32:13 PM Reply	Re: What the no major media coverage of Dillon Taylor shooting really means. While it may be true that racism had something to do with the shooting in Missouri, it was not the root cause. U wot m8? Of course it was. I'll bet you a pound to a pinch of shit that if it was a white kid who attracted the cops' attention in Ferguson, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The race problems (specifically, that the PD are a bunch of racist arseholes and in fact one department - Jennings - had to be completely disbanded for this and other reasons) in St Louis are well documented. Oh, and for bonus points, guess which PD Darren Wilson came to Ferguson from? Hint: J _ _ _ _ _ _ S It is a danger posed to every single citizen in our society, regardless of race. To attempt to eliminate or gloss over the massively disproportionate threat that a police officer poses to a black man as compared to a white man is somewhat distasteful. Or racist as fuck, whatever. Being charitable, I think you need to check the everliving fuck out of your privilege on this one.
Post #393,792 by mmoffitt 8/27/14 1:01:36 PM Reply	Cops are violent. Are they disproporationately violent against people of color? Of course. But what makes them prone to violence in the first place? Hint: it's not racism.
Post #393,798 by Another Scott 8/27/14 1:20:31 PM Reply	Evidence, please.
Post #393,799 by mmoffitt 8/27/14 1:31:26 PM Reply	Start here. And follow the links... The homicide rate nationally dropped from 5.4 to 4.7 per 100,000 during this period, and the Florida homicide rate dropped from 6.4 to 5.2 per 100,000. Since we are only looking at CCW holders in Florida, we would expect those rates to be a bit higher than the national rate for this period When we look at the numbers for sworn officers, I found 52 domestic homicides committed by sworn police officers from 2008 – 2011. For the police, nationally from 2008 through 2011, the rate is 52/2,818,924 or 1.854/100,000 domestic homicides per 100,000 police per year. For the data that we have, police appear to be three times as likely to commit murder as a concealed carry permit holder. If we include all unjustified homicides (suicides were not included) found in Florida by the VPC for CCW holders for the entire four years, the rate is only 27/2,400,713 or 1.125 per 100,000 population per year. This is comparable with the homicide rates in developed western European countries. It is 61% of the rate for police officers for domestic homicides alone. There are no complete and definitive sources of data that will give us an accurate ratio of unjustified homicides committed by police compared to CCW holders. The numbers are very small and no one keeps a national record of them. However, the numbers found for domestic homicide cases, which are some of the easiest solved and most highly publicised cases, offer strong evidence that CCW permit holders are less likely to commit unjustified homicide than police officers, as little as one third as much. http://www.ammoland.com/2013/10/police-officers-likely-to-murder-than-concealed-carry-permit/#axzz3Bc8tgy8m
Post #393,800 by Another Scott 8/27/14 1:47:03 PM Reply	No thanks. Any excerpt that equates "domestic homicide" by cops with "murder" cannot be taken seriously. At least not by me. And the question wasn't whether CCW holders in a short period of time in Florida committed more or fewer murders than the police nationally, but your Q&A: "But what makes them prone to violence in the first place? Hint: it's not racism." Try again? Hint: If you say something cannot be caused by racism, then it seems to me that you need to compare an explanation that includes race with one that doesn't and show that the 2nd has better explanatory power. Thanks. Cheers, Scott.
Post #393,806 by mmoffitt 8/27/14 3:00:41 PM Reply	How about a couple of cops on NPR? MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: Sue Rahr was once the sheriff of Seattle's King County. Now she's the director of Washington state's police academy. She's one of the few people who wasn't surprised to see police militarization become a hot topic nationally. SUE RAHR: This is something that has bothered me for the last couple of years. KASTE: She says it really hit her about two years ago when she took over at the Academy. RAHR: After 33 years in law enforcement, I was surprised at how militaristic the training regiment had become. KASTE: The Academy had become a kind of boot camp, and aspiring police officers were expected to snap to attention - their eyes front like soldiers. She says the Academy was teaching these new cops to be cold and distant, instead of being friendly communicators. And she thinks there's been a nationwide evolution in the mindset of police - that it's gone from beat cop to Robocop, from guardian to warrior. ... KASTE: Brian Buchner is the president of the National Association for Civil Oversight of Law Enforcement. He says the reality for cops in America is just different than it is in other developed countries. BUCHNER: Police officers in this country have a greater level of fear that circumstances or persons that they encounter can cause them harm. KASTE: To be blunt, American cops have an entirely rational fear of getting shot. And increasingly, they're afraid of being outgunned. Tom Nolan is a former Boston cop who's now a professor of criminal justice. He says you do need heavy weapons for some situations. The danger, though, is when the cops start to see every situation that way. TOM NOLAN: In practice, what could happen is anytime a police officer believes that someone might be armed, it could justify taking out the semi-automatic rifle. And that's my concern. KASTE: But does it make sense to blame the gear? Despite her intense criticism of militarization, Sue Rahr says no. RAHR: I think the gear is a visible symptom. But I don't think the gear is driving the culture. http://www.npr.org/2014/08/19/341542537/police-militarization-becomes-a-hot-topic Cop culture has become violent. That is the root of the problem.
Post #393,815 by Another Scott 8/27/14 5:37:49 PM Reply	If it were just that, then the majority group would get the majority of the violence, right? It's not just violent tendencies of the police. Yes, we don't have good statistics on violent injuries and so forth by demographic group. That's a problem. But you can't look at the percentages of people pulled over, arrested, charged, sent to prison, etc., for various ethnic group and explain it by anything other than racism, can you? Arrest-Related Deaths: Highlights: - A total of 4,813 deaths were reported to the Arrest-Related Deaths program from January 2003 through December 2009. - Of reported arrest-related deaths, 61% (2,931) were classified as homicides by law enforcement personnel, 11% (541) were suicides, 11% (525) were due to intoxication, 6% (272) were accidental injuries, and 5% (244) were attributed to natural causes. - State and local law enforcement agencies employing 100 or more full-time sworn personnel accounted for 75% of the 4,813 arrest-related deaths reported during 2003-2009. - Among reported arrest-related deaths, 42% of persons were white, 32% were black, and 20% were Hispanic. Let's see. The PDF version says there were ~ 98M arrests in that period according to the FBI. The US population is 72.4% white, 12.6% African American, and the total population is around 310 M. So lets say 224M whites, 39M AAs as the total population - or 5.75x as many whites arrested as blacks - if only random chance determines the race of the person arrested. If the arrests and deaths follow the population, yes, a big assumption, one expect something like the following: Let's neglect other ethnic groups to simplify the number arrested in each group. Then White arrests: 98M x (224/(224+39)) = 83.5M AA arrests: 98M-83.5M = 14.5M Actual White deaths = 0.42 x 4813 = 2021 Calculated White death rate = 2021 / 83.5M = 2.42E-5 Actual AA deaths = 0.32 x 4813 = 1540 Calculated AA death rate = 1540 / 14.5M = 10.62E-5 So the death rate for AA people in interactions with the police is 10.6/2.4 = 4.4x as high as it is for whites. I challenge you to explain that in a way that doesn't include a very large racism component. Yes, there are some assumptions in my figuring. If blacks are arrested in vastly greater numbers than the population, then their death rate per arrest would come down and approach those of whites. But then you'd have to explain why blacks are arrested in vastly greater numbers than you would expect from the population. I ignored other ethnic groups in figuring out the numbers of people arrested in the two groups. But adding more ethnic groups wouldn't change things much, I don't think. It would divide the 98M into more bins, reducing the numbers of AAs arrested and thereby again increasing their death rate. Is my figuring wrong? Also note that there are more Hispanics than AAs in the US now (16.4% vs 12.6% according to Wikipedia), but in the statistics above AAs die more often in interactions with police (20% vs 32% of deaths). Even with the poor data we have, it seems abundantly clear that the root of the disparity in treatment between blacks and whites by the police is racism. That is the biggest part of the problem - not increasingly having SWAT gear and the like. I don't see how you can look at numbers like that, say, "Are they disproporationately violent against people of color? Of course.", and then claim it's not racism. :-/ There's a bridge out somewhere in your thought process (or at least the way I'm reading what you post ;-). My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #393,817 by boxley 8/27/14 6:37:46 PM Reply	can you break out those figures by income? crime is always more prevalent in poor districts. A lot of those districts are segregated. Bigotry doesnt help Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
Post #393,818 by Another Scott 8/27/14 7:17:48 PM Reply	In principle a breakdown can be done. But... Yes, economics is a big part overall. But remember that: 1) This was the first murder in Ferguson, MO this year. 2) I haven't checked recently, but when I was in the area, Beavercreek, OH was fairly affluent and had a very low crime rate. Low crime rates in the area or economics don't seem to answer the question in these 2 cases (Michael Brown and John Crawford). Cheers, Scott.
Post #394,243 by Another Scott 9/8/14 8:14:20 AM Reply	More dribs and drabs on the Beavercreek Walmart shooting... http://www.balloon-juice.com/2014/09/08/monday-morning-open-thread-oscar-winner/#comment-5108416 What a horrorshow. It's getting to the point where leaving the house to shop is a deadly risk. (Yeah, beyond the point already for far too many.) :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #394,359 by Ashton 9/10/14 5:32:31 AM 9/10/14 5:37:46 AM Reply	Well, when the Cig-CIEIOs can baldfaced-lie before Congress ... with impunity does this not correlate with (much else reported here) on down the food-chain ... with this guy contradicting-self? Guess it's not clear yet if he will be charged.. we'll see, eh? Only slightly OT: Say Putin/Ukraine for examples at the top: Putin, Ukraine, Euro, NATO, dis-US: all are Lying! by omission and commission ("diplomacy" is itself a euphemism for lying-by-diminution or exaggeration, always with a wink/wink/nudge.) They didn't Tell Us this, in "civics'! (another lie-by-omission or just jingo-bells?) (Hell.. moi could be a minion for SMERSH-II, sowing discord amidst the larger-Discord (which homo-saps seem to favor, because comity ... is Sooo Hard for any Ego.) ;^> oTyp Edited by Ashton Sept. 10, 2014, 05:37:46 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #393,822 by drook 8/27/14 7:56:52 PM Reply	Can we all agree ... ... they're both really fucking bad problems that both need to be addressed immediately and stop worrying about whose (problem) is bigger? -- Drew
Post #393,824 by mmoffitt 8/27/14 8:06:13 PM Reply	Your objections are interesting. My first inclination was to argue that cops are more interested in protecting the monied elite than anything else. I think that's true, but I think, too, that claiming that assumes that I know why the cops have embraced a culture of violence. The monied elite need a strong, violent police force to help insure that they will remain the monied elite. But that is an answer (no matter how much I feel it accurate) to a larger question that should be asked. Namely, "Why have we allowed our police force to look at any of us as the enemy?" Is there a goodly amount of racism within police forces? Of course there is. Does it result in disproportionate arrests and killings among people of color? Perhaps. But is it race or socio-economic status that drives that? Is it because you are Black that you are more likely to be abused by police or is it because if you are Black you are more likely to be economically disadvantaged and therefore more likely to be harassed or even killed by the men and women in blue? I think the latter. And I think that is why one case gets publicity and the other does not. NO ONE in power wants anyone to look at the root of the problem. Like so many problems facing the US today, it is largely a matter of economic class. It's easier to say that "It's all because most police would feel more comfortable in a white hood" that leads to the statistics (such as they are) that we have than it is to really examine the true source of America's ills. What I'm saying is that we need to examine why the police have embraced this culture of violence, of cops vs. suspects and take an even closer look at who benefits. I don't believe you chalk that up to racism. I believe you chalk that up to economic class and that in this country, to my everlasting regret, is an almost isomorphic map to race. I maintain it is not race in and of itself that drives these brown shirts in blue to behave as they do, it is economic class.
Post #393,826 by drook 8/27/14 8:47:02 PM 8/28/14 9:08:31 AM Reply	Excluded middle It's easier to say that "It's all because most police would feel more comfortable in a white hood" that leads to the statistics (such as they are) that we have than it is to really examine the true source of America's ills. Nobody is saying it's all because of racism. It's impossible that there is one true source of ills. There are multiple problems. It's a waste of time and a fools errand to say we can't fix anything unless and until we can identify a single root cause. [Edit] I figured out this morning what I think about this. Police have abused minorities as long as there have been police. Members of the majority are generally aware of this in an abstract way. With the militarization of police and the shift to treating all "civilians" as "others", the formerly-comfortable majority is starting to realize, "Hold on, they can do that shit to ME!" And now it's unacceptable. -- Drew Edited by drook Aug. 28, 2014, 09:08:31 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #393,801 by rcareaga 8/27/14 1:57:20 PM 8/27/14 1:58:06 PM Reply	As the man said in "Blade Runner" "Stop right where you are! You know the score, pal. You're not cop, you're little people." cordially, Edited by rcareaga Aug. 27, 2014, 01:58:06 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #393,838 by Ashton 8/28/14 5:35:19 AM Reply	On that exact note.. (and for some well-earned comic relief for millions) Would that Dick Cheney shall soon set-foot outside the dis-US ... get bagged á lá Eichmann--who knows if the Shame of his conviction would be sufficient? --to induce introspection within.. just enough more of the currently sedated. Sub-plot: in this case of That Man, would the Presidents Club rush to the nuclear option? (One of their own-as-proxy, for those first several years) or demur? (with some of the most entertainingly tortured rhetoric imaginable.) Yeah I Know. But, wouldn't it be Magnificent? (Shrub wouldn't know why he was in the docket. Cheney would Know.) The Bard, resurrected would write that epilogue, in a trice.
Post #393,846 by rcareaga 8/28/14 10:17:29 AM Reply	The Merchant of Menace Act IV, Scene 1: The Hague Now is the "winner" of our dissed contest Laboriously summoned by this dun of Europe... (Well, waddya want at this hour? I haven't had my coffee yet)
Post #393,869 by Ashton 8/29/14 12:43:29 AM Reply	An interim draft? (a bit Post Meridian) [Enter CHENEY] Duke: Make room, and let him stand before our Face-book. Cheney, the world thinks, and I think so too, That thou had but lead'st this fashion of thy malice To the last hour of act; and then 'twas thought Thou wouldst show thy mercy and remorse more strange Than was thy strange accomplish'd cruelty. From brassy bosoms and rough hearts of flint, From stubborn Turks and Tartars, never train'd To offices of tender courtesy. We all expected a gentle answer, Repo. Thence didst thou exact, nay multiply the penalty; Thine Haliburton minions cruelly exacting tonnes of the flesh of thousands; They who slew: Mammon's PayPal-rewarded. This be not the winter of Thy discontent; (thou art no Richard, nay merely a Dick,) [aside] Unmanned art thou now, needing only speedy completion of that state. As we here, now so order: Take him to Abu Ghraib, in cheyns! (Send those balls--if they be found?--to the still-grieving; [aside] be that proof of the granting of many fervent orisons.) Now, my comrades: On to Yoo! and other varlets still in comfort's bosom, needful of weaning. [Scene 2] Optional, depending on audience Stage empty; translucent back-drop shows white-coated silhouettes in some examining room Several appear to be pointing at a reclining shape. And loudly guffawing. (Doubtless The Bard would deem this excessive Schadenfreude, but then he'd never met a Dick like this one, I wot.)
Post #393,873 by rcareaga 8/29/14 8:45:05 AM Reply	You know, this is a much better pastiche ...than many I've seen bolted together by ham-fisted "stylists" who seem to think(eth) that a handful of thees and thous and a sprinking of terminal eths and ests are all that are required to dress up the most pedestrian prose so that it may be taken for "Shakespearean." And so it may, of course, by readers whose sensibilities are equally uninformed. Well done, sir, well done! exit, pursued by heavily-armored police,
Post #393,874 by a6l6e6x 8/29/14 8:46:44 AM Reply	Rofl! Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #393,885 by Ashton 8/29/14 4:56:45 PM Reply	Fin danke; mine cup runneth over, fer-sooth!
Post #393,891 by Another Scott 8/29/14 9:00:49 PM Reply	Bravo! Very well done. Reminds me of a bit of poetry from olden days... Modern SCO Executive :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #393,897 by Ashton 8/30/14 3:03:33 AM Reply	Thanks.. tried a G&S send-up (of something? then topical) in our ill-attended IWE-WIki way-back; it was fun to get the ac-cent' upon the right syll-á-ble and all; alas the few entries were digital-minutiae.. fine for the intellectual-centre, but ... you know, any emotional poesy just goes Zoom ..when in pedestrian data-acquisition mode. Miss Rick Moen too; forget what internal squabblings (as with Karsten's; though: in fact he had transgressed: a few Prime Directives as I recall) ... led to Rick's departure in high dudgeon. Did contact him a bit later; always appreciated his wide range of well-stated koans.. thought then that the IGM had excoriated him on mainly.. pure pecksniffery, Lots of namesakes out there, but this be the Real one; Didn't know he also did G&S, confirmation that we were indeed.. on same page re most of the absurdities ..as have multiplied vastly ..since those pre-Shogunate, halcyon days. Thanks for reminder; guess I gotta look him up; see if he's maintained equanimity throughout the regression. A later locale. this one is vastly superior, in metric as well as delicious content--of course. YAN talent. Would that he had applied same in matters more visceral than mere Boolean exercises? Oh. Well. *Flash: re. WW-II: ~~One of our aircraft is missing~~ ... one of the in/out pair was missing;* let out at 5 am-ish; no. sign. til just now: ..missed dinner! ... worry starting to slither-in like some impending oration by a tiresome '14 nihilist.. but She's baaack; gets primo ahi tuna + small scolding and extended eye-contact (they indeed sense our emotional states. Just like the advanced-ones who pick out the soon-to-discorporate homo-saps.) Guess Cthulhu wasn't hungry..
Post #393,898 by pwhysall 8/30/14 4:48:06 AM Reply	I still have the email trail. KS and RM left because of their own (at the time; there's been a long time between then and now) pantywaisted and prima-donnaesque natures.
Post #393,909 by Ashton 8/30/14 6:24:20 PM Reply	My recollection may well be flawed.. but, I seem to recall the provocations were multi-sided, but the repartee ~Standard? (That is: hyperbole be no Stranger to our mixed-midst.) It is axiomatic too, that many possessed of those skillz peculiar to the taming of endless-Boolean-'expressions' (aka I.T. and many who ride in her) may have become so fascinated with logic's endless practical, machine-making possibilities.. That along-the-way, the adsorption of these arcane recipes necessary to the trade--that being an onerous travail of ever-expanding scope--rather less import? was given to the pedestrian aspects, subtleties of other kind: such as we call, Social Skillz. (Yes a rank generalization but, you know ... in cases where the fu shits..) Accept that your recollection of the two denouements in these parts is likely more complete than what I put into flash-memory. i do not J'Accuse! of churlish behaviour in these two soap operas--just thought the repartee ~expectable. (I did ride with one of the pair--in fact, to Rand's Cinco de Mayo revel in the Land of Oaks--even got to try out my fav phrase with a Russki/Ukraini? fellow reveler!) Concluded a few things, along the way. Hey, no one here is possessed of an underdeveloped ego-thing. Concur that one of these brouhahas developed for palpable reasons of said-ego trampling upon set-Rulez surrounding the techno: heresy then (yet guilt in evading a sane-Rule) thus a qed on that ostracism. Maybe the other case was of similar severity (?) Yet let it be noted that, in the lengthy dealings--seemingly for eons--with Him [who-must-not-be] Named; in all those efforts here, to partially civilize a {shudder} primitive: more patience and yes, kindness was expended by the many ... than might be found in any Love-In on Haight Street, in that Franciscan City of wealthy iniquity. We fucking Tried! and the failure was Not with the IGM. And, so it Goes.
Post #393,910 by Another Scott 8/30/14 6:37:29 PM Reply	The history is still there, but ... kmself rickmoen It looks like there was some dustup on the mailing list. That's not saved, but some of it was reposted. It's probably not worth going into it again unless one is really bored. We've lost lots of good people over the years, for reasonable and for stupid and for very unfortunate reasons. :-( Gotta enjoy each others' company while we can! Cheers, Scott.
Post #393,914 by Ashton 8/30/14 8:36:45 PM Reply	Indeed.. my unfinishable-koan is, 'Familiarity with contempt breeds ...'
Post #393,915 by malraux 8/30/14 9:22:48 PM Reply	Re: My recollection may well be flawed.. but, Moen was an unmitigated trolling jackass with a talent for deliberately misrepresenting someone's position just enough to get things inflamed, particularly if he thought he was smarter than thou (which as far as he was concerned pretty much included everyone). He was extra practiced at the "disgustingly personal insult oh no you misinterpreted me I wasn't calling you stupid, just your actions" schtick. Smarter than the average bear the man may be, but life's too short for putting up with that kind of intentional asshattery. Karsten was a much better sort, but with the same immense ego (not as common in our field as you may expect); opinion borne out by a shared brew and conversation when he drove through my neck of the woods once. This attitude amongst the Technocrati is much more common on your side of town than here, in my observation. And as I said Back Then, there was more to the story than the public edition. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #393,919 by Ashton 8/30/14 11:48:32 PM Reply	Correction: some recollections flawed. Yes I recall the fact of yours (and Peter's) direct clarifications via a bit of the unpublishable; agree that KMS may have exited disgruntled--but was not unfairly treated. As to RM, I see that my failure-to-grok matters may derive from my sense at the time: that the apparent-nastiness in ripostes (especially the ad-hominems) were not meant seriously; just games seemingly played ..within an arcane field? Mea culpa. His commentary meant seriously: of course your summary nullifies that misconception. Not much incentive to look him up, see if a leopard changed spots? got other chores. As to the Technocrati.. it seems that most now in bizness (or with home gadgetry) are forced to absorb much that they once thought they could evade. Even the MBAs. Unclear which side of this polygonal-town I inhabit, if premeditated nastiness is involved.. If I am missing the cream of the jest please inform if this locale is on the wrong side of the tracks or near the windowless Ivory Tower. FWIW, even generalizations like 'I.T.' I find worrisome, especially any presumptions that daily dedication to bit-matters? connotes any limitation of other abilities. Just a matter of degree of immersion, maybe. (From my POV, too: neither physics, math nor 'Science' attain anything like that faith-thing, insofar as certain topics are larger than those tools; just-as the 'social sciences' are smaller, and helpful only on statistical kinds of simple questions.) Someone certain of anything, probably needs to find some Alt-Gnostic collection of the like-minded. Honest argument there, isn't.
Post #393,932 by malraux 8/31/14 11:31:05 AM Reply	Your side of town == the Bay area I'm surprised San Fran doesn't sink into the ocean under the weight of all the ego in that town. I work with a guy originally from Michigan who spent a few years in Y-combinator out in SF. He confirms the nastiness of the attitudes out there and is glad to be back in Rational Land. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #393,952 by Ashton 8/31/14 6:18:06 PM Reply	Guilty-as-charged, Your Honor In penitence, all of the Greater-Bay-Area shall work towards the dismantling of the area formerly known as Silly Valley. Each Ego-Monument of silver-windowed Building-excess shall be deconstructed, the rubble dispersed (for enhancements to the cave-mouths of the new dwellings of the Many already dispossessed.) (We need not Salt-the-earth there, as well: the many tonnes of toxic chemical substances from The Fabs has salted it far beyond our poor powere to Salt-things.) Already we Crowd-fund a Neue University, through which the former Kapitans of Industry shall pass, that their citizenship may be restored. They shall read/be-Tested upon Baudelaire, Verlaine, Billy Collins, and similar sources of emotional maturity--else their pure Unobtainium VISA cards shall not be reactivated. There shall again be: Orchards as once there were, despite the Periodic-Chart-pestilence perpetrated by pewling popinjays. Will this suffice?
Post #393,953 by drook 8/31/14 6:20:49 PM Reply	Sounds good, get on that -- Drew
Post #393,955 by malraux 8/31/14 6:30:07 PM Reply	Re: Guilty-as-charged, Your Honor Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #393,961 by Another Scott 8/31/14 7:17:00 PM Reply	rofl.
Post #393,924 by pwhysall 8/31/14 6:04:25 AM Reply	It's an interesting case study in nerdy wankery RM was far, far more interested in being right than what was best for the group. I absolutely do not miss him; he contributed nothing of lasting worth to this collective, notwithstanding his undoubted technical chops. He treated this place as another venue for him to demonstrate his rhetorical and debating mastery, and honestly, when you're amongst people with whom you're supposed to be friends, who gives a fuck about that? Who needs the kind of dreary shithead who says things like "I think you'll find it's correctly referred to as 'GNU slash Linux', actually" when all we're trying to do is troubleshoot someone's mail server? Not us, that's for sure. KMS, OTOH, had his idiosyncrasies (eh, don't we all?) but was, on balance, a decent chap with interesting things to say, and who had a well-earned emotional investment here. We're poorer without him. I honestly think that if RM hadn't been around, KMS still would be.
Post #393,927 by static 8/31/14 8:02:44 AM Reply	I think you might be right. KS looked up to RM. He change subtly when RM deigned to grace us with his presence. And took exception to the fact that in essence we wouldn't worship RM. Wade. Just Add Story http://justaddstory.wordpress.com/
Post #393,933 by malraux 8/31/14 11:36:49 AM Reply	Re: It's an interesting case study in nerdy wankery Agreed on all points. RM was not a beneficial friend to KMS for sure. I'd forgotten about all the GNU/Linux crap. Bleargh. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #393,957 by drook 8/31/14 6:43:06 PM Reply	This article I just saw applies http://qz.com/258066/this-is-why-you-dont-hire-good-developers/ It's all good, but the relevant part starts at the heading "2. No jerks" -- Drew
Post #393,958 by malraux 8/31/14 7:07:07 PM Reply	Yep I've worked with one before. Worst work experience of my life, and management couldn't bring themselves to do the necessary. The whole company suffered for it. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #393,972 by pwhysall 9/1/14 1:49:37 AM Reply	Yep++ We had one (Scott has had the whole sordid story) and it took management ten. fucking. years. to get rid of them. The mood in the building the following day was noticeably lighter. Approximately 150 people work at our location.
Post #393,962 by Another Scott 8/31/14 7:41:15 PM Reply	Some really good stuff there. I thought she made a good case for many of her points. Especially if one is looking for a reasonably long-term hire. But how many places are looking for long-term hires these days? :-( Don't most companies only hire when they absolutely have to, when they have a particular project (that needs a particular skill-set) in mind? I didn't like the way she talked about "engineers" in terms of shipping products or something, but of course she's talking about CS-type engineers, so that's just me. ;-) #2 is great. #4 - Homogeneity is disastrous- is very important as well. People too often don't know what they don't know. In a fast-changing field, being surprised by something you didn't consider, or considered and pooh-poohed as stupid/not-important/a-waste-of-time, or had blinders about, is a *very* bad thing. Having a diversity of people with different interests and expertise is very important in that case. Thanks. Cheers, Scott.
Post #393,963 by Ashton 8/31/14 8:01:08 PM 8/31/14 8:08:35 PM Reply	Saved. Simply brilliant scope, detail (and all the implications.) Even the links-within.. (seeing what this consummate Explainer 'Does') expand, further illustrate her already near-complete(?) Instruction-set. 'Implicit bias' is a gem; words around fizbuzz test; Dunning-Kruger effect beats every Pop-psych oversimplification--it's fucking-Science or I never aced a trick-question. Apropos to the entire RM discussion, Avoid the “genius assholes”, avoid the bitter and cynical, the bullies, the snobs. Don’t work with somebody who is going to be mean, unpleasant, or demeaning to their co-workers. There is no level of brilliance and productivity that can compensate for poisoning the morale of your team, and once a team culture is broken it is very hard to fix {{sigh}} Overall though, this essay well-describes a Daunting list of necessities for any (certifiably-competent) Interview-er. I'm betting that Laurie Voss is an Outlier amidst outliers; that No One (OK maybe a few?) Here has ever encountered such a one ... amidst own n+1 "interviews". What think? Shall give this a more thorough reading anon; it limns (also.. for me) the level of intricacy which is not-optional: at the peak of this 'IT' pyramid (where the true-Interviewer must go all meta-) insofar as having to evaluate (hopefully sometimes!) a Superior mind AND regular mind-set on all these er, orthogonal vertices--much of that in metaphor-land! I could soo Not-do-That! even infinitesimally.. :-/ Reminds of my interview for the exact-Spot I aimed to enter, thence sinecure--upon quick realization, via the wonder of it all: that I could never abide a bizness enviro (before the word got coined) nor probably, any huge-Organization: except This One wherein: a One did Not "have to Lie a lot, on a daily basis." (Also never forgot: I had indeed Lucked-in!) Many of the tales here have only enhanced the Contrast, and I feel for the plight of the countless good people so oft-screwed by, either the portable office-mystique? or via mis-cast 'Supervision' or ... you know. Thanks.. you sleuth gooder n'gooder. Ed:oTyp Edited by Ashton Aug. 31, 2014, 08:08:35 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #393,980 by drook 9/1/14 8:35:35 AM Reply	Re: interviewing a superior mind The interviews I've done have all been for sufficiently low-level positions - developers, business analysts, project managers ... unimportant people - that the process had already weeded out the superior minds before they got to me. -- Drew
Post #394,002 by Ashton 9/1/14 10:32:45 PM Reply	Conundrum that.. means you don't have to s t r e t c h OTOH You've got the IGM to practice on..! :-0
Post #394,011 by drook 9/2/14 1:07:31 PM Reply	I'm just gonna leave this here http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3470 -- Drew
Post #394,013 by pwhysall 9/2/14 1:42:28 PM Reply	Hoo boy Nailed it.
Post #394,024 by boxley 9/2/14 3:46:36 PM Reply	shoulda whipped out the rfc Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
Post #393,929 by malraux 8/31/14 10:03:02 AM Reply	More in that vein... http://popsonnet.tumblr.com Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #393,930 by Another Scott 8/31/14 10:19:25 AM Reply	:-) Thanks.
Post #393,956 by Ashton 8/31/14 6:42:01 PM Reply	Our cupth runneth over; Lay On! last minstrel.
Post #393,936 by rcareaga 8/31/14 12:12:24 PM Reply	Now that's how we hijack a thread! (bows)
Post #393,938 by malraux 8/31/14 12:21:03 PM Reply	Grade-A hijackery to be sure... Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #393,940 by Another Scott 8/31/14 12:51:18 PM Reply	:-)
Post #393,954 by Ashton 8/31/14 6:29:50 PM Reply	Thine crowing doth quite oer'crow the gentle rain which falleth upon the piously anointed and the demon-rum damned, willy-nilly. But wtf.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. er, Cackle..
Post #393,816 by Ashton 8/27/14 5:40:17 PM Reply	Another cop; an earlier killing--takes 14 years to 'talk about it' Policeman who shot, killed Detroit man shares his story. Did he HEAR? the woman/mother SHOUT, HE's DEAF !!! (Though even that version is debatable.. cf. re his "having raised a hard-rake over head" per another version.) Do.. cops generally.. when in Vulcan-estrus-mode: HEAR anything? except the internal-What-IF!? mantra? Re-program ΣCops nationwide? ..graduates of pukka-Boot-Camp inculcations including salutes, eyes-ahead military enviro to a fare-thee-well? Would that take a decade or.. a whole generation? MEAN(ie?) WHILE: ..should one actually be Walking-by, do cross to other side of street. No tips for any drive-by ... Cop or usual-perp.
Post #393,831 by dmcarls 8/27/14 11:43:43 PM Reply	This sort of thing happens all too frequently We do have a problem. http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/02/14/65377.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/04/24/policing-and-the-deaf/ http://jonathanturley.org/2009/04/11/can-you-hear-me-now-texas-police-officer-breaks-nose-of-deaf-man-who-did-not-follow-orders/ and it just keeps happening.
Post #393,837 by Ashton 8/28/14 4:47:28 AM Reply	Things once only caricatures.. we now exceed. Drive deaf? clearly as hazardous as DWB. As stated recently in these parts: the idea that a cop may choose any level of violence next, if he perceives!? that a. Command. has. not. been. obeyed... as in any MIlitary operation. That alone is an invitation to all this mischief. (We really don't have any natural talent for self-government, compared with other people as rich/but smarter.) I feel most fortunate that my chosen spot to hide-out has become apt for this stage of US-devolution--simply by isolation from city concentrations and their many chances for unwanted cop-contact. My awareness is heightened too, that many others including ones I care about, have no similar options. So none of us can be free from the effects of this collective, massive failure even to attempt the recreation of a saner culture. This despite eloquent pleas made over decades, even reported widely! well before ... the momentum became inexorable. (Every deaf person needs to heed that video--in basic self-defense.) Apparently, it is not only the Deaf who are deaf in Murica--We're pitiful (no idea if Luck is ever attracted to the proudly dysfunctional?) (Has there been a well-concealed sniper attack on anyone apparently-wise? else, what happened to eliminate almost all of them?)

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