Referendum in Crimea vote moved to 3/16.

Post #387,264 by mmoffitt 3/6/14 10:16:48 AM Reply	Referendum in Crimea vote moved to 3/16. The parliament in Crimea installed a new, pro-Moscow government late last month -- as armed, pro-Russian men besieged the parliament building -- and does not recognize the authorities in Kiev. It had previously said a referendum on greater autonomy for Crimea would be held at the end of March. Citizens will now be asked on March 16 if they want an autonomous republic of Crimea within Russia; or within Ukraine. http://www.cnn.com/2...ex.html?hpt=hp_t1
Post #387,265 by a6l6e6x 3/6/14 10:44:46 AM Reply	Yeah, and what could possibly go wrong? And, the ballots will be in Ukrainian, Russian, and Tatar? And, there will be armed "True the Vote" characters in Balaklavas to guard the ballot boxes? Alex ÂThere is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.Â -- Isaac Asimov
Post #387,266 by mmoffitt 3/6/14 11:24:23 AM Reply	And visits to ensure everyone exercises his voting rights.
Post #387,341 by Andrew Grygus 3/7/14 2:08:04 PM Reply	Russian yes, Tatar no. Most Ukranians can read Russian well enough - but - according to Box, Tatars have no standing - Crimea rightly belongs to Russia. I'm not willing to accept his argument as coherent until he admits that Native Americans have no legitimate claim to any part of North America. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Russia has a history of evicting native populations without compensation of any kind and replaced them with Russians. Most notably the Circasians, shipped to Turkey (with about 40% mortality in transit) under the Tzars, and Tatars and others under the Communists.
Post #387,343 by mmoffitt 3/7/14 2:14:20 PM Reply	Re: Most Ukranians can read Russian well enough There's a very good reason for that, especially among those at least in their late 40's or 50's. I went to school in Kiev for 4th class. We had a course in Russian as our mother tongue and we had a course in Ukranian as a foreign language. Not too dissimilar from having young Hispanic kids take English as their primary language course and Spanish as their foreign language course in your neck of the woods. ;0)
Post #387,344 by boxley 3/7/14 2:19:14 PM Reply	Tartars have standing to the extent that their protected status us recognized. They didn't like siberia and want to go home. I'm not sure of whether their wish to be part of a stand alone country Crimea, Part of a Ukraine who wants to expel all russian speakers (does that include tatars?) and at the very least will keep all of the eastern folks subjugated to the whims of Kiev or a russian vassal state? Im sure the last is not what any of the folks there really want, russian or not. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,268 by Another Scott 3/6/14 12:20:48 PM Reply	EU no likey. Warns of sanctions. Angela Merkel was just on the BBC at an emergency EU meeting talking about sanctions if Russia doesn't pull back, etc. No linkies yet. Cheers, Scott.
Post #387,274 by boxley 3/6/14 1:54:07 PM Reply	EU likes to stay warm in winter Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,275 by Another Scott 3/6/14 2:06:46 PM Reply	Spring is coming. http://www.bbc.com/n...d-europe-26475508 But correspondents say the Crimean MPs' move has clearly toughened the line taken by the EU. In press conferences after the talks, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and EU Council President Herman Van Rompuy both said the Crimean referendum was contrary to the Ukrainian constitution and therefore illegal. The EU said it was suspending talks with Moscow on easing travel restrictions on Russians entering the EU. It said that if Russia did not move to de-escalate the situation quickly, it would "decide on additional measures, such as travel bans, asset freezes and the cancellation of the EU-Russia summit". Putin is going to have to back down or there are going to be consequences. Cheers, Scott.
Post #387,277 by mmoffitt 3/6/14 2:31:25 PM Reply	That's good. Let's point a gun at a paranoid with access to nuclear weapons.
Post #387,282 by crazy 3/6/14 3:22:20 PM Reply	nah, he's keeping it He's empire building and will not let this piece go. We will rattle sabres and "contain" it, but we will let him have this one.
Post #387,285 by boxley 3/6/14 3:54:02 PM Reply	clear, levelheaded understanding of the issues http://www.washingto...1760b9_story.html Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,291 by Another Scott 3/6/14 5:07:32 PM Reply	Thanks, but meh. 90% of that is cold-war framing. I haven't seen anyone sensible saying Ukraine should join NATO now. I didn't see much mention of the previous government looting Ukraine and making it an economic basket case. Nobody forced Viktor Yanukovych to negotiate a deal with the EU and then refuse to sign it. Nobody forced Viktor Yanukovych to bring in Russian snipers to gun down protesters while he was negotiating. Yes, the history between Ukraine and Russia is deep and rich and complicated. That doesn't mean that both sides have equally valid interests and positions. I don't expect a shooting war between NATO and Russia over Ukraine. But I do expect significant tensions and painful sanctions to be put in place if Putin doesn't back down. I don't have any special knowledge though... Cheers, Scott.
Post #387,292 by boxley 3/6/14 5:19:47 PM Reply	what you have there is Kurds and Arabs for an anology Saying that the Russian folks of the Ukraine do not have an equal say in what Kiev is doing is part of the problem. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,296 by Another Scott 3/6/14 7:14:02 PM Reply	It's the Russians who are refusing to talk at the moment.
Post #387,297 by boxley 3/6/14 8:06:14 PM Reply	hardly, an agreement was reached and signed by the parties then breached by pro-western forces immediately who had no desire to talk and declared themselves the winner take allez. Now the Russians are doing the same Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,298 by Another Scott 3/6/14 8:35:05 PM Reply	Meh. I'm talking about now. Putin is refusing to meet with the Ukrainian government now. http://en.wikipedia....ine_of_the_events is a good timeline of events in mid-February. Impeachment[edit] On 21 February President Yanukovych and the Parliament declared 22 and 23 February to be new days of mourning "Due to the loss of human life as a result of mass disturbances".[211] On Maidan, Klitschko announced that he and the opposition would be soon voting on the impeachment of Viktor Yanukovych in parliament, the bill of which was registered in the previous session.[176] In Parliament, Speaker Volodymyr Rybak submitted his resignation, citing alleged illness.[212] Yanukovych's whereabouts were unknown despite media reports he had flown to Kharkiv. Oleksandr Turchynov stated that in fact most of the ministers had disappeared as well as Interior Minister Vitaly Zakharchenko (who is reported to have fled to Belarus[213]) and President Viktor Yanukovych, "The only one legitimate body left is the Verkhovna Rada Â so we are here to vote today. The major tasks for today are: to vote for the new speaker, prime minister and interior minister."[176] In the Verkhovna Rada, deputies voted with 328 in favour and none against for impeaching Yanukovych.[42] Oleksandr Turchynov was then voted by parliament Chairman of the Ukrainian Parliament and acting President and Prime Minister of Ukraine.[214][215][216] Turchynov claimed Viktor Yanukovych had agreed to resign as president, but after consulting with advisers, he disavowed the decision and even a pre-recorded resignation statement.[176] Arguments can be made that the post-revolutionary government in Kyiv is illegal. I don't buy them, myself. Similarly, I don't buy that Russia or Russia-speakers in Ukraine are suddenly threatened by Yanukovych leaving the country before he was arrested. Or something. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #387,300 by boxley 3/6/14 9:18:40 PM Reply	see you a Meh and raise you a feh :-) not trying to state that the current government or rabble in charge is not legitimate. Just that this stuff has been around for a while http://www.bbc.com/n...d-europe-15250742 "It is dangerous and counterproductive to cast the entire package of agreements into doubt," Mr Putin was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency. Russia's foreign ministry had earlier said the ruling had a "clear anti-Russian subtext". Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,304 by Another Scott 3/6/14 9:49:13 PM Reply	Yup. The former leaders seemed to have been playing both sides for a while. The people in the square seem to have finally gotten tired of it. Cheers, Scott.
Post #387,306 by boxley 3/6/14 10:13:54 PM Reply	the other people in the other square, likewise that appears to be the issue here. Kiev is not Simferapol, and the people in the latter city do not wish to pull their forelocks in Kiev's direction any longer. Or do they have no rights except those dictated by Kiev? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,307 by Another Scott 3/6/14 10:22:32 PM 3/6/14 10:56:58 PM Reply	Dunno. It's mysterious, though, that the demand to be part of Russia only blew up after Russia invaded... The way out of this is to get everyone together and to talk about it. Demands for splitting up the country isn't a sensible solution. (E.g. water and [power] for Crimea apparently comes from the mainland.) Cheers, Scott. Edited by Another Scott March 6, 2014, 10:56:58 PM EST Expand All History
Post #387,308 by boxley 3/6/14 10:30:26 PM 3/6/14 10:31:29 PM Reply	well it is a legitimately elected government there no overthrows needed. They had almost true autonomy before the crisis and feel that their needs would be better met by Moscow than Kiev, with the economic uncertainty and draconian monetary policy that will be imposed by the west it may be the best move. Nit Russia did not invade, they were already there Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep Edited by boxley March 6, 2014, 10:31:29 PM EST Expand All History
Post #387,313 by Another Scott 3/6/14 11:03:01 PM Reply	According to the agreement, Russian troops were limited. http://www.kyivpost....ating-338358.html Germany has troops at Dulles Airport - http://wikimapia.org...ces-Command-US-CA That doesn't mean they can surround Fort Meade. ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #387,314 by a6l6e6x 3/6/14 11:05:24 PM Reply	Re:Nit Russia did not invade Bullshit! Per BBC: http://www.bbc.com/n...d-europe-26415508 Under the terms of its agreement with Ukraine, Russia is entitled to have 25,000 troops on the peninsula and currently has an estimated 16,000 deployed there. But these troops have to remain on base. Pro-Russian troops have been deployed across Crimea. Moscow insists they are local self-defence forces, but there are widespread reports that they are from Russia. And that's a Navy base! The fact that the uniforms of the armed goons running around Crimea have no insignia is an admission they are in violation and know it. Some admit to being Russian soldiers. My Viking River cruise ship in July of 2012 stayed in the Sevastopol Russian Navy base. My primary tour guide was Russian lady who was an English instructor to Russian officers (and on maternity leave). Her husband was a Russian officer (along with the baby) we briefly met. There were not that many people there and the ones I saw were sailors. Alex ÂThere is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.Â -- Isaac Asimov
Post #387,315 by boxley 3/6/14 11:14:44 PM Reply	you have to take last centuries turmoil into consideration Stalin Killed millions of Ukrainians during the 20 to collectivize their lands. As a consequence many folks rejoiced when the germans invaded and supported them wholeheartedly. The facists returned the favor to the Russians in the crimea and elsewhere. The great patriotic war swung the balance the other way again. The Russ of the crimea and east have long memories. The Ukrainians of the west have long memories as well. It is not as cut and dried as the Administration would like to make it. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,293 by a6l6e6x 3/6/14 5:56:15 PM Reply	Oversimplification. For example he says Ukraine has been foreign controlled since the 14th century. A single counterexample makes the statement false. For example, in the 20th century at the end of WW-I, before the USSR formed, at least for a while there was an independent Ukraine in at least a part of the territory that is now Ukraine. There was a government, they issued currency, etc. See here: https://en.wikipedia...r_of_Independence The Bolsheviks prevailed to be sure. Another example is this shown in this "The Zaporozhye Cossacks Replying to the Sultan" painting of an 1675 (i.e. 17th century) event: https://en.wikipedia...sch_Repin_009.jpg Granted the painting was created 2 centuries later by a Russian of all things. The Cossacks were responding to the Sultan of the Ottoman empire. The amusing exchange of words is here: https://en.wikipedia...orozhian_Cossacks The Cossacks were in charge of the Southern part of Ukraine. That's why the Sultan addressed them. The Cossacks didn't make a deal with Russia until a century deal. Alex ÂThere is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.Â -- Isaac Asimov
Post #387,295 by boxley 3/6/14 7:04:32 PM Reply	te Zaporozhye Cossacks prefer? hint they used to sack poland Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,317 by Andrew Grygus 3/7/14 12:48:35 AM 3/7/14 12:51:14 AM Reply	Bull. The Cossacks fought the Poles in Ukraine, but never sacked Poland. The only major sacking of Poland before the Nazis was the Swedes, during the short lived Swedish Empire - which met its Waterloo in Ukraine. The Swedes invaded Poland and Lithuania, and stole every bit of the art, cultural artifacts intellectual property and wealth of those countries, and shipped it all to Sweden. Anything they could not loot, the burned or otherwise destroyed, including castles, churches, villages and cities. They also caused the death of nearly half the population. They did far more looting and destroying than the Nazis during WWII. Sweden remains a criminal country, because they are bound by signed treaty to return what they looted, but to this day refuse to return anything. "Aw, gee, we just don't know where any of that stuff is." Bullshit. I consider the purchase of a Volvo complicity in this criminality. Edited by Andrew Grygus March 7, 2014, 12:51:14 AM EST Expand All History
Post #387,318 by boxley 3/7/14 1:42:55 AM Reply	sorry my historical references are impeccable :-) big fan of tony curtis http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056556/ Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #387,294 by rcareaga 3/6/14 6:07:57 PM Reply	I see no good options from here While I dislike Putin, and fear that like many another autocrat he enjoys bathing in the tepid waters of epistemic closure, it seems unrealistic to imagine that he was ever going to permit Ukraine (odd, I was brought up to think of it as "The Ukraine") to drift intact into the western orbit. If Subcommandante Marcos and Zombie Hugo Chavez led a popular revolt in Sonora and Chihuahua to throw out the corrupt state governments and reconstitute these along the lines of social and economic justice with a dash of Marxist thought, we'd be restoring order there faster'n you could say "General Pershing." Russia is going to help itself to as much of Ukraine as it feels like. The more conservative its portions, the less likely it will feel dyspepsia (I read a wonderful line years ago in an account of the origins of the Cold War, to the effect that postwar western statesmen took Stalin's appalling table manners to betoken an insatiable appetite, whereas they were actually early signals of poor digestion). If Putin's smart and not too delusional, he'll content himself with the Crimea, which is certainly the strategic and economic bonbon of the region—much good may it do him. NATO, and to a lesser extent the EU, advanced eastward far too eagerly (the EU's expansion and integration might each have taken some benefit from a more measured pace, nicht?). Half a decade ago there was talk of admitting Georgia to NATO. Georgia? As well resurrect the Warsaw Pact and admit the Dominican Republic (82nd Airborne and US Marines landing in three...two...one). Putin's Russia may be an appalling entity, but Obama's USA has yet to recover much of the moral standing this country might barely have been able to claim. I flinched, truly I did, when the otherwise admirable John Kerry said "You just donÂt invade another country on phony pretext in order to assert your interests." Holy projection, Commissioner Gordon! Indeed, as long as we're romping gaily through the precincts and provinces of Wogistan taking out a homegrown Islamist here, a wedding party there, that moral standing is going to remain on a pretty high shelf way above our reach. cordially,
Post #387,320 by Ashton 3/7/14 4:48:32 AM Reply	Yes, that Kerry line seemed scripted for a rebirth of Laugh-in 2 (presupposing--as al punte as the first, and with far less censorship by Suits.) I so miss General Bull Moose and all the regulars, even if several have proven to be mortal, since. The young Goldie Hahn was simply ~~stellar~~ boffo. Surely that was a full-gaffe by any definition, and betrays defective self-editing in one now arrogated the powers of that office. I do hope he's not losing it.. there are so few left, capable of playing with a full-deck and I want to think he is still one of those.
Post #387,365 by Another Scott 3/8/14 4:10:38 PM Reply	Yes, or Yes? http://www.kyivpost....d-yes-338745.html Voters in UkraineÂs Russian-occupied Crimea who vote in the March 16 referendum have two choices Â join Russia immediately or declare independence and then join Russia. So the choices are Âyes, nowÂ or Âyes, later.Â Voting ÂnoÂ is not an option. [...] The ballot asks two questions and leaves no option for a ÂnoÂ vote. Voters are simply asked to check one of two boxes: Do you support joining Crimea with the Russian Federation as a subject of Russian Federation? And: Do you support restoration of 1992 Crimean Constitution and Crimea's status as a part of Ukraine? That Constitution declares that Crimea is an independent state. [...] Volodymyr Yavorkiy, a member of the Kharkiv Human Rights Group, says that not only is the referendum completely illegal, the ballot for it doesn't stand up to any criticism. ÂThere is no option for Âno,Â they are not counting the number of votes, but rather which one of the options gets more votes,Â says Yavorskiy. ÂMoreover, the first question is about Crimea joining Russia, the second Â about it declaring independence and joining Russia. In other words, there is no difference.Â He says with no choice available, Âit's clear what the result will be.Â :-/ Cheers, Scott.
Post #387,370 by Ashton 3/8/14 5:52:05 PM Reply	Do I espy some new Repo election rules.. from the House?
Post #387,379 by mmoffitt 3/8/14 11:09:15 PM Reply	Ha! A good old fashioned Soviet ballot!
Post #388,437 by Another Scott 4/11/14 8:09:37 AM Reply	Digital Globe photos of Russian forces massing. From March and April. Naturally, Putin's people say they're from 2013. :-/ http://www.bbc.com/n...d-europe-26968312 Here's hoping that Putin isn't stupid enough to think that invading mainland Ukraine would cost as little as his invasion of Crimea did. Cheers, Scott.
Post #388,447 by folkert 4/11/14 9:42:29 AM Reply	Nice! Steve-O works at Digital Globe. -- greg@gregfolkert.net "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
Post #388,494 by Steve Lowe 4/12/14 12:48:14 AM Reply	:) You should see the stuff we can't make public!
Post #388,498 by Another Scott 4/12/14 7:31:54 AM Reply	10-15 cm resolution on a good day? http://ask.metafilte...ble-telescope-see Cheers, Scott.
Post #388,519 by Steve Lowe 4/13/14 12:17:25 PM Reply	Re: 10-15 cm resolution on a good day? Can't say what we can actually do, but the best we're allowed to share publicly is 1/2 meter. http://www.informati...es/d/d-id/1111621?
Post #388,520 by Another Scott 4/13/14 12:32:39 PM Reply	Interesting. Thanks.
Post #388,535 by Ashton 4/14/14 4:50:13 AM Reply	Can hardly wait for the infant-implants.. Next-gen, direct satellite-feed: Seeing the airliner in extremis, the bios of the doomed passengers/crew--and the home address of the mechanic --who left-off the safety-wire on the fuel-line lock-nut. In retinal-HD, of course; (sorry about no Audio..) Until, of course, some disgruntled 3rd-world Prez-for-Life--denied the new I.C.-cubes techno of tera-junctions: sets off a cluster-bomb in the satellite-belt, and we go back to teletypes on POTS copper. While regrouping for the next round of dice. Love. It. Techno is so far ahead of immature cerebral-wet-ware (with all the Good-stuff permanently-Secret) that --aren't we collectively already on Auto-pilot? http://www.stlyrics....enwego185492.html video: https://www.youtube....tch?v=frAEmhqdLFs Oh we.. shall.. all.. go [fully-instrumented] together.. when we go, Ev'ry Hottenhot and ev'ry Eskimo. When the air becomes uranious [all receptors sub-cutaneous], And we will all go simultaneous. Yes we all will go together When we all go together, Yes we all will go together _{when _{we _go.}}
Post #388,831 by Another Scott 4/21/14 1:21:32 PM Reply	#1358 http://xkcd.com/1358/ :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #388,536 by Ashton 4/14/14 5:24:31 AM Reply	Untraceable hearsay of course, but the quip re Hubble optics folk -vs- ("giggling"?!) spook-engineers ... speaks volumes about Priorities: if it's even ~truthiness, it underscores the complete disdain of 'the military' (and its==Our 'industrial complex') for any human (even 'humanity's) efforts to advance--in this case-- the entire science of astronomy. You can't be guilty of more dense rote-cynicism than that. (Maybe a President needed to create an Executive Order--and did/didn't get the Information ... it was Needed.) Or did 'know'--we shan't discover the truth, in any case. :-/
Post #388,491 by Ashton 4/11/14 11:03:26 PM Reply	About time some of our Spook-techno gets used for Talking, well-before the Killing starts. (Yeah I know these are Unclassified; doubt we'll see the really granular Hi-Res stuff spilled--not even about missing airplanes full of non-combatants. Say.)
Post #388,495 by Steve Lowe 4/12/14 12:51:11 AM Reply	Re: Digital Globe photos of Russian forces massing. "Naturally, Putin's people say they're from 2013. :-/ " They're lying.
Post #388,497 by Another Scott 4/12/14 7:21:44 AM Reply	:-) You folks are doing a great job. Thanks.

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