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New re Driftglass's "Jobs" post
http://driftglass.bl...2012/11/jobs.html

Suffice it to say that, right this minute in the Chicagoland area there are around 30,000 manufacturing jobs going unfilled.

Imagine that? I mean, it's certainly not a magic bullet, but whatever cause consumes you -- antipoverty, social justice, salvaging the middle class, making sure every kid gets a great education -- the fact that there are a lot of decent, well-paying jobs going begging at the same time unemployment lingers around 8% like the party guest who never leaves should piss you off.

The good news?

All we have to do to fix this is to overhaul the entire, dysfunctional, underfunded, over-bureaucratized, patchwork "system" that gets people of all ages ready for the jobs that are really available.


He got some push-back in the comments and responded here - http://driftglass.bl...witting-tool.html

The long comment there makes the point that you have to be careful about comparing average salaries with average wages. A welder with a few years experience is much more likely to make $25k a year than $60k a year.

I have some sympathy for the argument that "we can't get the people we need". Anyone who has been involved with recruiting people knows that it can be a problem to find someone who is a good fit, even in a time of high unemployment. I have more sympathy, however, for the argument that if you believe in capitalism and the free market, then wages should be a part of the supply-and-demand equation. If you can't get the people you need, maybe you're not offering enough pay.

But we need to look one step beyond. If wages for welders suddenly increase by 30% to fill vacant spots, then others in the company are going to want higher wages as well. Most companies can't afford to have their labor costs suddenly increase 30%...

What's the solution?

Better education and training for available jobs and jobs of the near future?

No. I don't think so.

Education is vitally important for many reasons: 1) to allow a functioning self-government that is effective and progressive; 2) to improve the health and welfare of the country; 3) to reduce the risk of war; 4) to provide a foundation for new knowledge, new industry, new jobs.; 5) to get a substantial number of people out of the labor market for a few years and put less downward pressure on wages; 6) to keep young people off the street and less susceptible to the temptations of various vices that idleness provides; etc.

But it won't reduce unemployment, and it won't increase wages for jobs on its own. One can even argue that it would make unemployment worse - "you're over qualified" "labor costs are too high, we need to move production to Somalia".

What we need to reduce unemployment is greater demand in the economy.

Companies don't hire people because they want to. They hire people because they must to address business demand. Increased demand means companies need to work harder. Their employees need to work longer, and that costs more money. There comes a point when it's cheaper to hire new people than pay overtime or time-and-a-half to existing people. When there's enough demand in the economy, wages rise. That makes it more appealing for people to find out what's necessary to get those jobs. That makes it more appealing for people to go to school to get the knowledge and training for those positions. And that training makes it easier for new people to enter those positions that require specialized training.

There are lots of experienced people with decades of welding experience that can be trained to run automated welders or whatever. They would be ideal for at least some of these manufacturing positions. But they aren't willing to take entry-level positions at $15/h when they were making 3x that before. They have expenses that someone just out of high school doesn't.

It's not a shortage of qualified people, it's a distorted labor market due to lack of demand.

What's the solution? Given the depressed state of the economy, the private sector can't fix this. Government policies that encourage demand, encourage affordable high-quality education, and encourage investment in jobs-producing industries are the solution.

When I was young, I was willing to take a low paying job for a while to get experience and have some income. (I can tolerate just about anything for up to 5 years if there's light at the end of the tunnel.) But I knew that I wasn't going to be making minimum wage + $1.50 for the rest of my life. Someone with a family isn't going to take a $15/h job that requires specialized training if there's no hope of higher wages in the future. For the last 25 years or so, median household income has been flat...

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: re Driftglass's "Jobs" post

>>> " Government policies that encourage demand..."

While I generally agree with your comments, Scott, how is the government supposed to encourage demand ? Do you see Congress doing anything constructive in this regard? What form would such encouragement take?

Just curious, not trying to be a pain.
New you dont understand
Government's job is to spend money as fast and as nonsensically as they can while borrowing it at zero interest. If that doesn't fix the economy its the republicans fault.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
New You do realize that governments create money, no?
New yes, Zimbabwe and Weimar come to mind
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
New dupe
Government's job is to spend money as fast and as nonsensically as they can while borrowing it at zero interest. If that doesn't fix the economy its the republicans fault.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Expand Edited by boxley Nov. 23, 2012, 07:45:35 AM EST
New What do you think it would cost ...
... to fix every pothole and rehab every bridge in the interstate highway system?
--

Drew
New triple tarp but a much better investment
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
New Things like those done after earlier recessions.
We should have done more of the things that were traditionally done during and after recessions:

1) Extending unemployment benefits until the unemployment rate was close to normal.
2) At least maintaining (and not cutting) food stamp benefits.
3) Increased (not cutting) aid to states and cities so that they didn't have to lay off huge numbers of teachers and other public employees.
4) Substantial increases in infrastructure spending while interest rates are low.
5) Substantial increases in financial aid for education and training to keep people off the street and lay a foundation for smarter growth in the future.

Etc.

Basically, you increase demand by giving money to people who will spend it. Yes, the banks needed to be rescued, but that was not sufficient. As Atrios says almost every day - http://www.eschatonb...-happen-when.html

Too many famous economists decided to forget standard economics and buy into the stories from the no-nothings on the right who screamed about inflation. It was a willful destruction of the knowledge painfully gained after the Great Depression and the various crises after.

We know how to get out of this mess. The instructions are in the classic introductory economics textbooks. Our politics is too broken at the moment to apply them. (Though we haven't forgotten quite as many lessons as the Europeans...)

Things are different when the economy blows up after a bubble. Austerity makes things worse. You have to spend, and spend a lot, to get out of it. When the recovery is well underway, then you slowly reduce the stimulus. And yes it does work and yes it doesn't lead to Zimbabwe!!!11 - see the USA after ~ 1940 - 1972.

Will Congress do anything? Hard to say. There are too many Teabaggers still in power, but some things will probably be done on the margins. As long as Europe doesn't collapse and as long as China doesn't fall into a recession (which I don't see how they avoid forever), we'll probably be firing on all cylinders by 2015 or so. But it shouldn't have taken 8+ years to crawl out of the hole the Republicans created...

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New It's getting worse, rather than better.
My wife and I did our usual Thanksgiving cooking gig at the church. We missed last year since I was recovering from back surgery. There have been some changes. The church is now hooked up with the Cleveland Foodbank and they do several meals a week now. There are fewer volunteers and the need for them has increased. At the beginning of the month, they feed about 75 people; at the end of the month it's up to 150 or so. This is because people on social security and the middle wage earners are out of money and go to these places to get a meal. There are only so many hours a day one can work even if the low paying jobs exist. I'm working for what I made in 1995 and I'm very grateful to have the job. I know of one guy who came from to Cleveland to get a job as a welder, and he's hired on as permanent part time (read no benefits.) Something has to change. 30,000 instances of abuse of employees isn't helpful.
New Thanks for helping out.
It's very good of you and your wife to help your neighbors like that.

We give what we can, in cash and in food drives, but don't do the actual hands-on work. Folks like you do the heavy lifting, and see the heartache first hand. It must be very hard, even with the satisfaction you get of helping those in need.

I'm convinced things will get better in the coming 4 years (as long as Europe and China don't blow up), but it will continue to be a long slog. Hang in there, and thanks again.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: re Driftglass's "Jobs" post

If wages for welders suddenly increase by 30% to fill vacant spots, then others in the company are going to want higher wages as well. Most companies can't afford to have their labor costs suddenly increase 30%...



This can only happen if all of the workers in the company know what the hourly wage for a welder is AND they know that the company is now hiring welders at a rate 30% higher than what current welders get.

I can go to DICE and see ads looking for Sharepoint administrators so I can see the salary range being offered. Does that mean our Sharepoint guy down the hall is getting paid a salary within that range? Not at all. His salary could be way below or way above that range for reasons I'm not privy to.




"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from."

-- E.L. Doctorow
New True. Good point.
New Hourly wages
Yes and no. You know what you are getting paid. You should (and I know I do) look at both my company (and others) to find out what salary they're paying for job (X) where X can be welders | sharepoint admins | etc.
New Re: Hourly wages
I can only guess at what my company is offering for Sharepoint admins because they post the position on various Internet job boards without providing any identification as to who is posting the job.

as to what they are paying now, that will require the Sharepoint admin to tell me what he's making - and that ain't gonna happen! (Just like I'm not telling him how much I make!)





"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from."

-- E.L. Doctorow
New why not? That is how the coprs turn the screws
make payroll a big sekrut.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
New THIS
That's very divide and conquer. Not sharing your salary with your colleagues is how they get away with discrimination, based on whatever.
New I doubt very much that your coworkers
know what your salary is. Ditto for every other member of this community. In fact, at more than one of my past employers among the pile of papers that I signed on my first day there was a legal document ordering me to NOT share my salary info with other employees under penalty of immediate termination.

That's how the corporations win.





"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from."

-- E.L. Doctorow
New Yeah, see
I'm in Canada, which is a different legal jurisdiction. A clause saying you can't discuss how much money you and your colleagues are getting is unenforceable here, and attempting to enforce it will only earn the employer large penalties after the labour board hearing and the consequent lawsuit.

Something about speech, assembly, and association rights. They are the underpinnings of labour unions... if you hate unions, you must necessarily hate civll liberties. WDYHASM? :D
New The only salaries we knew at work were the Canadians
Because they were here on visas, and the visa law stated that you had to post a job opening with the exact salary before giving it to a worker on a visa (or something like that). And since the job description was fairly specific, everyone knew what the higher-up Canadians were making.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New I have seen those, wont sign them
they dont want to hire me fine. At the last two gigs including this one I had to have them make contract modifications to take the BS out
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
New Yeah, I've done the same
but not a whole lot in job negotiations. I've done it a LOT with leases for apartments though. You sit down with the landlord or their agent and the proposed lease and a red pen, and strike through the clauses while muttering "unenforceable, unenforceable, unenforceable..." If they don't want me after that, then fuck 'em, there are other places to live. Interestingly enough, that only cost me a place once. I pretty much knew it would; I'm familiar with the landlord and knew that she wouldn't like that, but wanted to do it anyway to make a point to her (yeah... small city here).
     re Driftglass's "Jobs" post - (Another Scott) - (21)
         Re: re Driftglass's "Jobs" post - (dmcarls) - (7)
             you dont understand - (boxley) - (2)
                 You do realize that governments create money, no? -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     yes, Zimbabwe and Weimar come to mind -NT - (boxley)
             dupe - (boxley)
             What do you think it would cost ... - (drook) - (1)
                 triple tarp but a much better investment -NT - (boxley)
             Things like those done after earlier recessions. - (Another Scott)
         It's getting worse, rather than better. - (hnick) - (1)
             Thanks for helping out. - (Another Scott)
         Re: re Driftglass's "Jobs" post - (lincoln) - (10)
             True. Good point. -NT - (Another Scott)
             Hourly wages - (S1mon_Jester) - (8)
                 Re: Hourly wages - (lincoln) - (7)
                     why not? That is how the coprs turn the screws - (boxley) - (6)
                         THIS - (jake123) - (5)
                             I doubt very much that your coworkers - (lincoln) - (4)
                                 Yeah, see - (jake123) - (1)
                                     The only salaries we knew at work were the Canadians - (malraux)
                                 I have seen those, wont sign them - (boxley) - (1)
                                     Yeah, I've done the same - (jake123)

Here he comes, here comes Speed Racer.
121 ms