Re: ad-hoc

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Post #27,875

Picture of a6l6e6x

2/8/02 9:29:58 PM

Re: ad-hoc

>> There is an old Hebrew saying that says "A thousand examples doesn't constitute proof". <<

You only presented one, not 1000.

I am amused that you don't recognize that I'm agreeing with you on that point. What I am saying here is that even if I did give you a thousand examples, it would still not be a proof.

I am not saying that all OOP applications are crap. That is not my stance. I am only saying that OOP is overhyped and the hype is ruining progress and tools for the alternatives.

>> Can you imagine a user saying "You've got this table, and it..."? Not likely. <<

Are you saying that tables are less trace-able than objects? Let's see you do an ad-hoc query on a bunch of objects? For example, "Show me all meters west-side that have reported leakage or cracking problems since last month and serviced by Bob".

My point here is that users do not think in terms of tables, but developers do. Users think in terms of things in their problem domain, otherwise known as objects. Tables are things in the solution domain. When the objects in the problem domain match the objects in the solution domain, communication between developers and users is easier.

Ad hoc queries are a separate issue. You either design for them or not depending on user requirements. OO does not exclude use of relational databases.

Alex

"Of course, you realize this means war." -B. Bunny

Post #27,878

2/8/02 11:05:54 PM

English Oriented Programming

>> My point here is that users do not think in terms of tables, but developers do. Users think in terms of things in their problem domain, otherwise known as objects. <<

Yeah, like they are really gonna relate to things like class TransitionStateManager.

Programmers rarely man the customer phones anyhow (except in really small shops). Even under the longshot that I agreed with you that OOP was closer to English, it is mostly moot.

I don't really see how OOP is close to English anyhow. Like I said, English sentences are based on *one* verb and potentally *many* nouns. "Bob and Dora rode a snowmobile to Grandma's house." This better maps to functions if you ask me. Verbs are more pivotable to English than nouns.

>> OO does not exclude use of relational databases. <<

Yes, but does not get along with them very well. OOP and relational thinking tend to fight over territory. Either one gives in, or you duplicate (mirror) stuff.

________________
oop.ismad.com

How non-OO people think. - (Arkadiy) - (90) - Jan. 29, 2002, 10:04:49 AM EST

I just don't get OO design decisions - (tablizer) - (88) - Jan. 29, 2002, 10:47:05 AM EST

I believe I understand why you have a problem - (ben_tilly) - (21) - Jan. 29, 2002, 12:53:33 PM EST

Re: I believe I understand why you have a problem - (wharris2) - (1) - Jan. 29, 2002, 02:35:10 PM EST

Well, my philosophy says... - (ben_tilly) - Jan. 29, 2002, 04:04:15 PM EST

ADT's and Coddlets - (tablizer) - (18) - Jan. 29, 2002, 05:27:14 PM EST

Coddlets? - (Arkadiy) - (10) - Jan. 30, 2002, 10:23:26 AM EST

From the context: Applets + Codd = "Coddlets". - (CRConrad) - (9) - Jan. 30, 2002, 12:12:02 PM EST

And "little snippets of data structures" make no sence to me -NT - (Arkadiy) - (8) - Jan. 30, 2002, 02:19:53 PM EST

Me neither - but don't blame me; it's *his* concept! :-) -NT - (CRConrad) - Jan. 30, 2002, 05:12:56 PM EST

Virtual Structures - (tablizer) - (6) - Feb. 1, 2002, 02:23:51 PM EST

I understand all words - (Arkadiy) - (5) - Feb. 1, 2002, 02:27:03 PM EST

how about this then - (tablizer) - (4) - Feb. 1, 2002, 02:59:35 PM EST

Odd. Not a single mention of "coddlet" anywhere. - (Arkadiy) - (3) - Feb. 1, 2002, 03:39:25 PM EST

"A formula for a pattern or structure" -NT - (tablizer) - (2) - Feb. 1, 2002, 10:19:20 PM EST

Still odd. - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Feb. 2, 2002, 09:36:22 PM EST

Jay, where is your "Roles" link? -NT - (tablizer) - Feb. 2, 2002, 11:03:01 PM EST

I think you would prefer what Code Complete has to say - (ben_tilly) - (6) - Jan. 30, 2002, 11:00:53 AM EST

You must think in *Russian*! Think in *RUSSIAN*! - (admin) - (2) - Jan. 30, 2002, 11:11:07 AM EST

Firefox, Clint Eastwood and the semi-telepathic MiG. - (CRConrad) - Jan. 30, 2002, 12:17:43 PM EST

Second, was FireFox. (book was better than movie) -NT - (Steve Lowe) - Jan. 30, 2002, 12:16:44 PM EST

Abstraction level is relative and graph-like IMO - (tablizer) - (2) - Jan. 30, 2002, 02:25:20 PM EST

Nested abstractions do work in business - (ben_tilly) - (1) - Jan. 31, 2002, 10:18:01 AM EST

"Layers" is not appropriate for the most part - (tablizer) - Jan. 31, 2002, 01:41:57 PM EST

That's not the kind of post I 'd like to get... - (Arkadiy) - (65) - Jan. 30, 2002, 11:01:55 AM EST

Why the Tree focus? - (tablizer) - (64) - Jan. 31, 2002, 01:46:14 PM EST

No tree focus. - (Arkadiy) - (63) - Jan. 31, 2002, 01:59:03 PM EST

Have you thot of tables? - (tablizer) - (62) - Jan. 31, 2002, 04:36:56 PM EST

Not relevant. - (Arkadiy) - (61) - Jan. 31, 2002, 05:03:35 PM EST

what is wrong with them? - (tablizer) - (60) - Jan. 31, 2002, 09:16:05 PM EST

Bryce, please pay attention. - (static) - (3) - Jan. 31, 2002, 09:22:37 PM EST

seperation of concerns - (tablizer) - (2) - Feb. 1, 2002, 11:56:28 PM EST

Duh! - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Feb. 2, 2002, 09:39:10 PM EST

Perhaps p/r is moving above that -NT - (tablizer) - Feb. 2, 2002, 11:00:19 PM EST

Bryce, Static is right. - (Arkadiy) - (55) - Feb. 1, 2002, 09:48:27 AM EST

what is the goal? - (tablizer) - (54) - Feb. 1, 2002, 02:01:44 PM EST

The goal is to further the discussion. - (Arkadiy) - (53) - Feb. 1, 2002, 02:17:31 PM EST

that depends - (tablizer) - (52) - Feb. 1, 2002, 02:54:50 PM EST

OK, getting somewhere. - (Arkadiy) - (51) - Feb. 1, 2002, 03:35:06 PM EST

Now THAT is the crux.... - (folkert) - (1) - Feb. 1, 2002, 03:59:28 PM EST

only one fact here - (tablizer) - Feb. 1, 2002, 10:13:47 PM EST

I disagree - (tablizer) - (48) - Feb. 1, 2002, 10:04:19 PM EST

May be. - (Arkadiy) - (47) - Feb. 2, 2002, 09:24:21 PM EST

the calculation complexity may not even matter here - (tablizer) - (46) - Feb. 2, 2002, 11:14:00 PM EST

It does not matter indeed. - (Arkadiy) - (45) - Feb. 2, 2002, 11:52:14 PM EST

Regional Scope to the Rescue - (tablizer) - (44) - Feb. 3, 2002, 01:05:55 PM EST

Regional Scope - ok. - (Arkadiy) - (43) - Feb. 4, 2002, 10:40:53 AM EST

I think so - (tablizer) - (42) - Feb. 4, 2002, 01:31:55 PM EST

It was really C, not C++ - (Arkadiy) - (41) - Feb. 4, 2002, 04:38:07 PM EST

Welcome to Table Land - (tablizer) - (40) - Feb. 4, 2002, 06:37:26 PM EST

So, each clone's data is a row? - (Arkadiy) - (39) - Feb. 4, 2002, 07:49:55 PM EST

Multiple Entity Association Candidates - (tablizer) - (38) - Feb. 4, 2002, 09:13:21 PM EST

Re: Multiple Entity Association Candidates - (Arkadiy) - (37) - Feb. 5, 2002, 10:15:25 AM EST

Genericness - (tablizer) - (36) - Feb. 5, 2002, 11:55:43 AM EST

Expressing problem domain - (Arkadiy) - (35) - Feb. 5, 2002, 02:13:09 PM EST

Misunderstanding - (tablizer) - (28) - Feb. 5, 2002, 08:03:45 PM EST

Actual numbers don't matter much. - (Arkadiy) - (18) - Feb. 6, 2002, 10:47:48 AM EST

Spoken Language? - (tablizer) - (17) - Feb. 6, 2002, 06:43:02 PM EST

Re: Spoken Language? - (Arkadiy) - (16) - Feb. 6, 2002, 10:46:35 PM EST

Hmmmm. Verbal thinkers versus visual thinkers - (tablizer) - (10) - Feb. 7, 2002, 12:51:58 AM EST

Seems like end of conversation, then. - (Arkadiy) - (6) - Feb. 7, 2002, 10:34:38 AM EST

See also Stephenson, In The Beginning Was The Command Line.. -NT - (CRConrad) - (1) - Feb. 7, 2002, 12:47:29 PM EST

Actually, I like command lines - (tablizer) - Feb. 8, 2002, 11:10:58 PM EST

Noted. - (static) - Feb. 7, 2002, 08:07:43 PM EST

Can our differences really be all that simple? - (tablizer) - (2) - Feb. 7, 2002, 09:46:35 PM EST

Simple? - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Feb. 8, 2002, 09:37:57 AM EST

Compared to others, yes. - (tablizer) - Feb. 8, 2002, 01:00:37 PM EST

On visual thinking. - (Another Scott) - (2) - Feb. 8, 2002, 09:38:14 AM EST

mooooo - (tablizer) - (1) - Feb. 8, 2002, 08:06:47 PM EST

I've heard her speak.. - (Ashton) - Feb. 17, 2002, 10:44:11 PM EST

Sp: "Swahili". Kwaheri, Jambo! - (CRConrad) - (3) - Feb. 7, 2002, 05:58:53 AM EST

I've had enuf of your irrelevent, speghetti insolts :-) -NT - (tablizer) - (2) - Feb. 7, 2002, 09:43:56 PM EST

Hey Bryce, I was just over on /. and revisited an old... - (CRConrad) - (1) - Feb. 8, 2002, 08:55:34 AM EST

Okay, you are off the hook - (tablizer) - Feb. 8, 2002, 08:11:29 PM EST

Re: Spoken Language? - (pwhysall) - Feb. 7, 2002, 07:54:21 AM EST

Nothing else is possible with you. - (CRConrad) - (8) - Feb. 6, 2002, 11:05:49 AM EST

Did you notice... - (Arkadiy) - (6) - Feb. 6, 2002, 12:20:44 PM EST

What're you talking about?!? I called a mind (yours) "good"! -NT - (CRConrad) - (5) - Feb. 6, 2002, 12:53:07 PM EST

Thank you. - (Arkadiy) - (4) - Feb. 6, 2002, 01:43:04 PM EST

More like the other way around... - (CRConrad) - (3) - Feb. 6, 2002, 02:14:26 PM EST

Right you are. - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Feb. 6, 2002, 03:16:12 PM EST

Actually, you are right too... - (CRConrad) - Feb. 6, 2002, 06:30:26 PM EST

not think like me == bad mind ? - (tablizer) - Feb. 6, 2002, 06:54:59 PM EST

Walk Before Run - (tablizer) - Feb. 6, 2002, 06:48:43 PM EST

A classic real world example: Brooklyn Union Gas - (a6l6e6x) - (5) - Feb. 7, 2002, 02:43:16 PM EST

One case proves nothing - (tablizer) - (4) - Feb. 7, 2002, 09:35:34 PM EST

Re: One case proves nothing - (a6l6e6x) - (3) - Feb. 8, 2002, 12:57:32 PM EST

ad-hoc - (tablizer) - (2) - Feb. 8, 2002, 08:21:27 PM EST

Re: ad-hoc - (a6l6e6x) - (1) - Feb. 8, 2002, 09:29:58 PM EST

English Oriented Programming - (tablizer) - Feb. 8, 2002, 11:05:54 PM EST

How I think in Non-OO terms - (nking) - Jan. 29, 2002, 03:18:39 PM EST

I guess you can't gargle with it.
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