Single gene turns docile fruit flies into fighters.

Post #265,458 by Another Scott 8/20/06 3:46:39 PM Reply	Single gene turns docile fruit flies into fighters. [link\|#\|New Scientist]: Ralph Greenspan and Herman Dierick of The Neurosciences Institute in San Diego, California, bred fruit flies to be aggressive. After 21 generations, they were 30 times more aggressive than controls, as measured by an index of fighting ability. Not only did they start more fights, and ones that lasted longer, they were also fiercer, wrestling and flipping opponents rather than just chasing and hitting them. An analysis of their genome revealed that the aggressive flies expressed higher levels of an enzyme called CYP6a20 in their heads. The enzyme is produced by a single gene (Nature Genetics, DOI: 10.1038/ng1864). Many genes would be expected to play a role in aggression, says Ary Hoffmann of the University of Melbourne, Australia, who first bred flies to be fighters 15 years ago. To find just one gene that accounts for a large amount of the aggression "is pretty impressive", he says. The enzyme may also help break down pheromones, adding to evidence that an ability to sniff out rivals can trigger aggressive behaviour. Nature: 1 Nurture: 0 Hmmm. The [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics\|eugenicists] would have a field day with results like this. Even though there's little doubt that genetics has a great deal to do with our biology and development, I worry that advocates could use these results for political purposes that aren't supported by the evidence. Another issue is: If similar genetic traits for aggressiveness are found in humans, what does that imply? Are we willing to spend as much on treatment of such genetic "diseases" as we would be to develop tests and controls for people who have the trait? Should people with such a trait be subject to extra "preventive" measures? I don't think so, but I fear that too many people would like to gain increased "safety" so ... Cheers, Scott.
Post #265,459 by warmachine 8/20/06 4:17:52 PM Reply	Not useful in nature vs nurture debate Everybody knows that the same breed of dog can be raised to be aggressive or docile as well as different breeds being more aggressive than others. The reason genes have greater influence over flies is brain size. As animal husbandry is an ancient technology, I think even the scientifically illiterate will work this out. The eugenicists will have to use human studies to convince anyone. Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #265,460 by Another Scott 8/20/06 4:30:11 PM Reply	Good points. We'll see. :-)
Post #265,465 by Andrew Grygus 8/20/06 6:36:09 PM Reply	Not entirely invalid. With fruitflys there simply is no nurture so that's irrelevant. It does, however, cleanly demonstrate the effect of nature. Now, with critters high enough developed for nurture to be a factor, can nurture overcome it? In my opinion, often yes, but nature can make the risk factors simply too high, as in the case of pit bulls. They are "just so sweet and gentle" until the day they aren't. Nurture being 99% effective just isn't enough. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #265,466 by boxley 8/20/06 7:19:40 PM Reply	hogwash, pits are a dog, canine no more vicious that a chihuahua. They do have a very high tolerance of pain (dont feel it hardly at all) and they are extremely strong and stubborn but if not placed in a situation where those traits are prized or placed with a non dog understanding humans they are fine safe animals. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #265,470 by broomberg 8/20/06 7:34:18 PM Reply	Speaking of vicious chihuahuas [link\|http://www.mysteryinternational.com/mnscrpts/short/kil-chi.asp\|http://www.mysteryin...short/kil-chi.asp]
Post #265,471 by boxley 8/20/06 7:45:00 PM Reply	sneaky little bastards arnt they :-) Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #265,474 by Andrew Grygus 8/20/06 8:07:49 PM Reply	I find that easy to agree with . . . . . I consider all dogs viscious (and smelly) and dislike the entire lot of them regardless of size, tolerance for pain, strength and/or stubbornness. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #265,475 by boxley 8/20/06 8:08:45 PM Reply	well, they are not all bad, dog soup is popular in places Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #265,484 by Andrew Grygus 8/20/06 9:32:06 PM Reply	Yeah, like next door. Remember, this area is subject to rapid continental drift. Over the last few years it's drifted from Armenian to Korea. In one of the condos next door, every once in a while they have a whiney or constantly barking dog tied up in the garage. Then a couple of months later there's no dog. Then some months later there's a dog again. Now I'm not accusing them of eating dogs, there could be some other explanation, but they are Korean . . . [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #265,515 by drewk 8/21/06 10:11:28 AM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #265514 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=265514\|ICLRPD] === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #265,476 by bionerd 8/20/06 8:09:13 PM Reply	But a houseful of dead fish isnt smelly at all...
Post #265,478 by boxley 8/20/06 8:11:09 PM Reply	Naw, he douches his house regularly Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #265,481 by Andrew Grygus 8/20/06 9:19:32 PM Reply	Fresh fish isn't smelly - and . . . . . I don't buy any that is smelly because it isn't fresh. Immediate processing, prompt and thorough cleanup and disinfection of all tools and work surfaces keeps the facility safe and non-smelly. Fish not eaten same day is frozen and shrink wrapped. Only place there's any fish smell at all is in the freezer compartment (I freeze spread out on plastic and before wrapping because faster freezing means better fish). [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #265,483 by imqwerky 8/20/06 9:21:36 PM Reply	Just cooked some catfish tonight. YUM! I know, not very exotic, but it keeps the Critterman happy! Smile, Amy [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman\|Pics of the Family]
Post #265,486 by Andrew Grygus 8/20/06 9:42:29 PM Reply	I had a client wander in to pick up a compuer . . . . . while this big boy (6-1/2 pounds) was sitting on the dining room table for his photo session. [image\|http://www.clovegarden.com/ingred/img/sf_catch06b.jpg\|\|\|\|] His comment: "Ummmm . . you like catfish?". On the other hand, I don't think a guy who's password is "NASCAR" is going to have a big problem with catfish. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #265,532 by imqwerky 8/21/06 12:21:13 PM Reply	YANandrewLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #265531 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=265531\|YANandrewLRPD] Smile, Amy [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman\|Pics of the Family]
Post #265,489 by Andrew Grygus 8/20/06 9:54:32 PM 8/20/06 9:56:21 PM Reply	Now, I will confess to a particular resentment . . . . . for the relaitionsip between women and their dogs. I've dated several women who had dogs. It was always, "No I can't stay, I have to go home and feed the dog". Ok, that's a good excuse for getting out of a situation - *but after having sex?*. I'm sorry, but a woman who, after having sex, is not ready to stick around for breakfast is, in my opinion, pretty damned worthless. And of course they always say, "Oh, having this dog is such an inconvenience, I wish it weren't so . . . ". But guess what - the day the dog dies they go out to get another one. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus Aug. 20, 2006, 09:56:21 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #265,493 by boxley 8/20/06 10:03:29 PM Reply	who cares if they are worthless you already got laid Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #265,495 by Andrew Grygus 8/20/06 10:27:32 PM Reply	Yeah, but that's not enough. Maybe that's what scares 'em - they're used to guys like you. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #265,497 by boxley 8/20/06 10:51:32 PM Reply	I always loved a woman who would sleep over 3rds! know what you mean, more to sex than sex. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #265,707 by bionerd 8/23/06 7:47:30 PM Reply	You cant leave a dog alone all night. unless you want a present on your carpet when you get home. Why is it so odd that she would leave after sex? She stayed for the good part. That says something. Maybe you snore.
Post #265,709 by Andrew Grygus 8/23/06 8:23:05 PM Reply	Commentary: A "present on your carpet" is about as good a reason to dislike dogs as I can think of. No, that's leaving in the middle of the good part. There's still a good night's sleep in a comfortable bed (without the long late night drive home), plus fresh brewed coffee and breakfast in the morning, and there might be other stuff too. I do not snore - unless I'm sleeping flat on my back but being flat on my back keeps me awake so snoring is not a problem. Not for her anyway, I've suffered more nights with a snoring woman than I care to remember. No, I'm still blaming it on the dog and on the woman for having one. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #265,712 by bionerd 8/23/06 9:21:22 PM Reply	Then dont pursue women with dogs. Problem solved. 1. If you are a responsible dog owner you dont leave your dog alone for hours on end, thus avoiding said presents. 2. Go spend the night at her house- she can be there for her dog and for you. You still get to sleep in a comfy bed without anyone having to drive home. You can still have coffee in the morning and other stuff, too. 3. One side of your mouth says you want the women to sleep over, the other side says you are tired of suffering through their snoring. Only non-dog-owning, non-snoring types need apply?
Post #265,715 by Andrew Grygus 8/23/06 10:10:05 PM 8/23/06 10:22:23 PM Reply	Then don't pursue women with dogs. Real good advice that I'm already following. Singles ads that say "must love my dogs" translate to "Automatic Disqualification". And for your other points: 1. I would much rather not be a dog owner than be a "responsible dog owner". 2. Every woman who's slept with me more than once has expected a delicious home cooked dinner with a nice bottle of wine - and that pretty much means it'll be served here. I don't expect that to change because that's the kind of women I attract - ones that are tired of cooking. Fortunately that's a really big pond with a lot of fish in it. 3. Fortunately most women don't snore much, I did tough it out for a long time with one who started with moderate intermittant snoring but over the years increased to a non-stop and non-stopable health destroying rhino-roar. Fortunately I was finally able to break off that long term relationship cleanly when she started expressing a strong opinion that my failure to support my President in time of war constituted treason. So yeah, non-snoring non-dog owning would be really nice - as would be someone who shares my opinion that it's the President who's treasonous. And speaking of dogs, I whish the Koreans next door would hurry up and eat the one they've got in their garage - it barks incessantly day and night. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus Aug. 23, 2006, 10:15:57 PM EDT Edited by Andrew Grygus Aug. 23, 2006, 10:22:23 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #265,738 by Silverlock 8/24/06 7:33:57 AM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #265737 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=265737\|ICLRPD] ----------------------------------------- Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
Post #265,477 by bionerd 8/20/06 8:09:22 PM 8/20/06 8:10:09 PM Reply	dupe Edited by bionerd Aug. 20, 2006, 08:10:09 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #265,472 by ChrisR 8/20/06 7:53:18 PM Reply	Variation on Clockwork Orange Can we engineer docile behavior? Possibly. But should we?
Post #265,501 by Ashton 8/20/06 11:25:36 PM Reply	Thou sayest Hubris R'Us. Best rebuttal to any such grand scheme that comes to mind - Read the entire 20 Volume history of corn, starting with the original FOOD, then earliest 'hybrids' - then.. on through to now, folding in the health consequences to millions (just barely being noticed seriously, in past few years.) Genes? corn has been entirely about the premeditated construction of the means of corporatization for-handy-packaging - while asserting control of the mods; while minimizing any serious investigation of the corn sugars on humans (and other animals.) Now: it appears that the only longterm human-safe use for these megatonnages is apt to be a physics-nonsensical push for this ex-FOOD: making fuel! Shades of the current hydrogen scheme/dream. These fly because Muricans don't know shit about even basic physics. We aren't Nearly! smart enough (or honest enough) or.. sane enough to extrapolate fruit fly experiments towards -specially- anything having to do with personal aggrandizement: I think that leaves out most projections, at least where capitalism is the major religion? But ugly outcomes won't $top bizness, nor (likely) will distracted 'we'. I can see $$ signs and VC checkbooks, already. I. See. ~~Dreams~~ of becoming the First Trillionaire ~~ and floating just ^above^ == the schematic for creation of the even-more-Docile Consumer: who will spend 18 hours in a rilly-tiny cubicle. Complaisantly.

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