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New Re: Please read what I wrote carefully
ben_tilly says


... the early history of Islam does nothing to convince me that Mohammed and his message were very special.


Mmmm ... I may have few points to add here, one, you don't seem to doubt your sources much, which put you at a weak point, how much do you know about early islam, and what are your sources, when you used the sword analogy, my biggest pain was you seem too quick to believe anything bad about islam, but, too reluctant to believe anything good, which is what I really wanted to point out, which is why i started this religious talk in the first place, when it comes most of the westerns at just too quick too quick to believe anything bad, it like they stop being ... open minded

Anyway, I thought about your doubts .... before today, i mean, and some of them are answered in the Koran, ppl, obviously asked Mohamed why did God send a man, why not an angel?

I won't tell you the answer, for one, it needs research in the Koran, and I prefer if your source is the Koran not me ...
I just need to point, the question was asked in many verses, and obviously to many prophets before Mohamed.

So to answer your question, yes, Mohamed maybe wasn't special, by your standards, of for your need, maybe you needed an angel!

But Mohamed wasn't an angel ... he was a man, and he is special, because God chose him to be his prophet, to send his message, God choose Mohamed to get the angel

Why does God need to send a message .... and why throught a prophet ... why this way, answers maybe found in the Koran ...

Yes an angel delivered the words of God to Mohamed, so why didnt the angel talk directly to us, why Mohamed, guess this made him a bit special ...

Why can't we all communicate directly with God ... why do we have this life?
You might find some answers in the Koran

Why did the pharoes, last so long, they weren't muslims or christian, why did God leave them prosper, and why did he take em away?

Where are the kings of the past, and where is their kingdoms ... and why did God burry those in the sand?

You may find some answers in the Koran, and maybe you wont, but first its nice you asked the question .... please find some answers, I did find plenty of answers in the Koran, and not only that, the Koran helped me and even suggested some of the questions ...

Your not the first to ask, but its nice you remmmembered to ask, we all seem to forget about the basics, and the difference Mohamed makes, I dont pray because it make senses, I pray because sent his message ...people should pray, i not preparing for the after life because it makes sense, .... i am preparing for the after life because it existed, God spoke to his prophets and the prophets (notice the plural) delivered the message

Mohamed, was special, not because he was the first prophet, but because he was the last ....

Was he lucky, well, if you believe in God, would you believe in luck ....

He was blessed I think ... I dont know if it makes sense, but maybe you should read more about Mohamed pre-islam ...

Many ppl, can point you to God, but not all were prophets ...

And whats sad is, its not really about Mohamed, its about his message, and he didnt create it or make it up, he didnt even ask for it, he was just a messenger, so how special was he as a person, doesn't really matter, of course God must have picked a really good trustworthy man to deliver his message, and he was trustworthy, if i have any doubts its not from Mohamed, its from the people that followed ... but its really more about the message, God will judge you for what you did, how you spent your life, what you belived in what you didn't believe in

Finally, you have the right to doubt Mohamed ... I think I am trying to help you doubt him in the fairest and best way possible ...

I just doubt other stuff

I believe, God sent prophets, and I believe Mohamed was the last one ... part of my time I spend, reading and doubting what others carried as God's message (by others I dont mean other prophets, i mean the ppl who followed and saved the prophet words) ...

The thing is, I do read the message as God's message ... really God's
Expand Edited by systems Feb. 25, 2006, 04:03:36 PM EST
New You've just proven my point
You seem to be unable to comprehend exactly how big the gap is between where I am and where you'd like me to be. Here are some working points for you:

  • I don't believe there is a God.
  • I believe that Mohammed was a particularly lucky cult leader.
  • I don't believe that Mohammed was a prophet.
  • I don't believe that the Koran has any special claim to truth.

Absolutely nothing that you've said even addresses my world view, let alone tries to challenge it. So Mohammed claimed to be a prophet. I knew that. So he gave a rationale for why God sent a man rather than an angel. Well that is a question that he'd have to answer, isn't it? Why did the pharaohs last so long? There are some solid geographic and historical reasons for that. (Note that they didn't actually last as long as people think they did, they got replaced a number of times. For instance Cleopatra was Greek. [link|http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/timeline.shtml|http://www.bbc.co.uk...ns/timeline.shtml] gives a timeline.) I don't know what answer the Koran gives for why Mesopotamia (ie Iraq) is now desert, but the real reason is salinity from irrigation. (We are doing the same on a much larger scale to our farmland today.)

Now nothing of what I said will seem in the slightest convincing. I am aware of that, and am not trying to convince you of anything. I am not trying to tell you to believe differently then you do. I am explaining why what you're saying will not convince me to believe differently than I do.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
     I don't doubt your faith, but it's not for me. - (Another Scott) - (16)
         Not that careful. - (admin) - (5)
             Good point. s/extremely// - (Another Scott) - (1)
                 More on translations. - (Another Scott)
             The problem with the search for the historical Jesus... - (ChrisR) - (2)
                 As a wise man once said - (drewk) - (1)
                     :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
         Re: I don't doubt your faith, but it's not for me. - (systems) - (9)
             I'm not Ben, but my take... - (hnick)
             I'm sorry (well, not really), but I can't pass this up... - (jb4)
             Re: I don't doubt your faith, but it's not for me. - (JayMehaffey)
             Please read what I wrote carefully - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                 Re: Please read what I wrote carefully - (systems) - (1)
                     You've just proven my point - (ben_tilly)
                 <tweak /> ;-) -NT - (jb4)
             Re: I don't doubt your faith, but it's not for me. - (Ashton) - (1)
                 Stark Trek episode idea (new thread) - (drewk)

It's no good shouting out all of these random occurrences where you happen to see the face of the Virgin LRPD in a pancake in Guadalajara.
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