Re: I don't doubt your faith, but it's not for me.

Post #246,014 by systems 2/24/06 3:57:37 AM Reply	Re: I don't doubt your faith, but it's not for me. I wanted to reply to something ben said, but i wasn't sure where to put, here or there, anywhere I think my reply is more a deffense of a common misconseption about islam, so i brought it here ben_tilly writes: ... a Pakistani that I knew in grad school. He tried to convince me of Islam. I quickly became convinced that the primary difference between Muslim apologetics and Christian apologetics is that Islam never really developed any. Christianity has had to put up with a few centuries of trying to convince people through conversation. Islam spread through the sword, and so never had a need to develop elaborate rationales for why you should believe. I will not say yes or no ... I want to ask ben, how much do you know about islam's history, how much do you know about Muhamed, how did he start, do you think he started with a war, he wasn't hercules, you know, it could never be like Muhamed the strong, raised his sword and started to beat ppl so that they believe in his words, sure he used reason and common sense, dont you think so. Who do you think first opposed islam, the arabs themselves right ... they fought him, tortured his first followers, took their money ... Its not like if the arabs conspired around Muhamed and used islam to conquer, ..."oooh, new religion, cooool, lets use it" why would they do that anyway, doesn't make sense, they fought it at first, Yes ppl listened to his words, and were convinced, I know its hard to believe, because unlike Jesus, all Mohamed had were the words from God, he didnt raise the dead, or heal the thick, So maybe many ppl especially from the west, refuse to think that many ppl were so elegant as to believe in Muhamed as a prophet, even thought, he didnt have super powers, just his words (which is truely a sign of how brilliant the script is, really the script at least for the ppl then must have sounded amazing, i am not tryin to lure you or anything, but what happened truely is a sign that the script is good) How did christinaity spread, I dont know, was christianity ever spread by the sword, at least in happened in spain, and this is authentic, history books , suggest torture and no so descent ways were used to either kill, convert, or kick out the muslims I can make not so founded assumptions, i havent read the christian history, but i can assume that maybe christianity was spread by the sword, during the christian crusade, maybe torture was used, but no one spoke of it, heh torture is used today, by USA in iraw, torture was used by the french in algeria. plus .... the used of the word sword, is so meaaaaaaan, its like the french colonies spread the french language in africa, you dont see anyone accusing france of spreading francophonia by the bullet, .... Maybe in the countries, that muslims conquered islam was spread because it was in vogue, .... i dont know, but do u really think, ppl literaly raised a sword and threaten ppl, be muslim or i will kill u, and which books in history support ur claim, because u know when u used the word sword, this is what u imply did the french but a bullet on every algerian head, or we will kill u !!!!! and finally, islam, is said to be one of the fastest growing religions today, is this also by the sword !!!! you mean, islam have no logical merits at allllllllll .... really, u believe so , zero merits !!!! isnt this a bit extreme .... i mean at least islam have one good thing , dont u think , one good idea
Post #246,016 by hnick 2/24/06 7:04:45 AM Reply	I'm not Ben, but my take... The Abrahamic religions (Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam) are suited for tribal societies. Each is tweeked for the dominant tribal group at the time. They are essentially a social control mechanism. The right person in the right place at the right time can accomplish wonders. Wonders can be beautiful or hideous. Depends on perspective. Islam, like all (all?, probably, I can't think of exceptions at the moment) other authoritarian institutions, spread on the wings of violence. Breaking heads is the best way of catching people's attention. Afterwards, keeping a firm grip on their balls, figuratively speaking, will maintain their attention. This would explain the fascination authoritarian religion has for governing sexual behaviour. And as far as your observation that "the used of the word sword, is so meaaaaaaan" , I would note that your co-religionists are still posing with swords and using them to cut the heads off hostages. I think we can keep all the connotations of the word "sword". and finally, islam, is said to be one of the fastest growing religions today, is this also by the sword !!!! you mean, islam have no logical merits at allllllllll .... really, u believe so , zero merits !!!! isnt this a bit extreme .... i mean at least islam have one good thing , dont u think , one good idea Islam, like it's Abrahamic predecessors, is a hardship religion. It can't really help materially now, but in the next life... Hardship is spreading. That kind of religion will as well. And islam can have many good things and ideas. It only takes one nasty one to make it unworkable. It's go a few. That would be my view. I have absolutely no interest in cutting your head off if you disagree.
Post #246,039 by jb4 2/24/06 10:16:01 AM Reply	I'm sorry (well, not really), but I can't pass this up... [...] because unlike Jesus, all Mohamed had were the words from God, he didnt raise the dead, or heal the thick, [...] Which just goes to show you that, no matter how holy you are, you just can't heal the thick! The holy man that figures out how to do that will indeed be the one true Messiah! (systems, I know it was a typo or misaliteration, and I apologize if you think I'm making fun of you...I'm really not. But in that malaprop you have effectively summarized one of the fundamental problems with Religion\ufffd\ufffd that I and others here have.) jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
Post #246,046 by JayMehaffey 2/24/06 11:21:33 AM Reply	Re: I don't doubt your faith, but it's not for me. I will not say yes or no ... I want to ask ben, how much do you know about islam's history, how much do you know about Muhamed, how did he start, do you think he started with a war, he wasn't hercules, you know, it could never be like Muhamed the strong, raised his sword and started to beat ppl so that they believe in his words, sure he used reason and common sense, dont you think so. Who do you think first opposed islam, the arabs themselves right ... they fought him, tortured his first followers, took their money ... Muhammad's taking of Mecca was primarily a military conquest. The question of this being a justified war or not is more complex, but Muhammad does not come across very well in this regards even in the Koran. Its not like if the arabs conspired around Muhamed and used islam to conquer, ..."oooh, new religion, cooool, lets use it" why would they do that anyway, doesn't make sense, they fought it at first, Actually that would have been a common response among the tribal population of Arabia. Many of the tribal groups became muslim because they believed that doing so would increase their chance of military success. They where also quick to abandon it when it didn't seem to be working. How did christinaity spread, I dont know, was christianity ever spread by the sword, at least in happened in spain, and this is authentic, history books , suggest torture and no so descent ways were used to either kill, convert, or kick out the muslims I can make not so founded assumptions, i havent read the christian history, but i can assume that maybe christianity was spread by the sword, during the christian crusade, maybe torture was used, but no one spoke of it, heh torture is used today, by USA in iraw, torture was used by the french in algeria. Christianity was spread by the sword on many occasions, but not as much as Islam. The conversion of the Roman empire and the conversion of the barbarian tribes of Europe at the start of the dark ages where largly non-military. Both religions often latched onto military conquests that where happening for political reasons and used them as a tool of expansion. Maybe in the countries, that muslims conquered islam was spread because it was in vogue, .... i dont know, but do u really think, ppl literaly raised a sword and threaten ppl, be muslim or i will kill u, and which books in history support ur claim, because u know when u used the word sword, this is what u imply There is a good article on this here [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions\|Islam and other religions]. In short, while the Koran does have some tolerance towards Chritisan and Jewish believers historically it did not extend that to followers of other religions. And historically the treatment of Christaians and Jews has varied widely, in some periods they where treated fairly well and in other very badly. Like any other religion that has existed for a long period of time the behavior and beliefs of Muslims vary widely. And believers blame the behavior they don't like on people not following the correct beliefs. Jay
Post #246,107 by ben_tilly 2/24/06 8:21:34 PM Reply	Please read what I wrote carefully I never said that Christianity didn't spread through the sword. It obviously did. You've named some examples. Some more would include the Crusades, the Inquisition, and a variety of wars and massacres between Protestants and Catholics. Very frequently Christianity spread by convincing leaders that their power base would be cemented if they promoted Christianity. Two well-known examples of this are the conversion of the Roman empire, and the conversion of the Norse. But in the last few centuries European civilization has become far less willing to tolerate converting people through wholesale violence. (This is partly a reaction to some particularly bloody episodes.) In fact in a lot of places (eg the USA) freedom to believe as you will is considered a basic right. As a result Christians have had to deal with the problem of how to verbally convince articulate people who don't necessarily accept the basic assumptions of Christianity. (That there is a God, the Bible is true, etc, etc, etc.) This has caused Christianity to develop an entire branch of argument called apologetics, that are arguments which can be directed towards non-believers. A good example of the form is C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. As far as I can tell, Islam has not faced this problem and has developed no equivalent to Christian apologetics. Basically either you believe in Islam (in which case the only possible argument is about how to best obey the Koran), or you don't. There are arguments for why to become a Muslim, but they are all emotional in nature, there is no tradition of logical argument for why to be a Muslim. This is not to say that Islam couldn't develop this. After all apologetics are a recent development in Christianity. To answer the example that you care to name, the early history of Islam does nothing to convince me that Mohammed and his message were very special. There are plenty of examples of cults which achieve quite a bit of success despite the leader having no special powers, and messages that are likewise dubious when you examine them closely. In fact I'd expect (given human nature and the facts of tribal society) a certain number of such successes. That Mohammed was a lucky one whose message is now believed by a billion plus people does nothing to convince me that he was right, it merely shows me that he was the lottery winner. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #246,163 by systems 2/25/06 3:50:20 PM 2/25/06 4:03:36 PM Reply	Re: Please read what I wrote carefully ben_tilly says ... the early history of Islam does nothing to convince me that Mohammed and his message were very special. Mmmm ... I may have few points to add here, one, you don't seem to doubt your sources much, which put you at a weak point, how much do you know about early islam, and what are your sources, when you used the sword analogy, my biggest pain was you seem too quick to believe anything bad about islam, but, too reluctant to believe anything good, which is what I really wanted to point out, which is why i started this religious talk in the first place, when it comes most of the westerns at just too quick too quick to believe anything bad, it like they stop being ... open minded Anyway, I thought about your doubts .... before today, i mean, and some of them are answered in the Koran, ppl, obviously asked Mohamed why did God send a man, why not an angel? I won't tell you the answer, for one, it needs research in the Koran, and I prefer if your source is the Koran not me ... I just need to point, the question was asked in many verses, and obviously to many prophets before Mohamed. So to answer your question, yes, Mohamed maybe wasn't special, by your standards, of for your need, maybe you needed an angel! But Mohamed wasn't an angel ... he was a man, and he is special, because God chose him to be his prophet, to send his message, God choose Mohamed to get the angel Why does God need to send a message .... and why throught a prophet ... why this way, answers maybe found in the Koran ... Yes an angel delivered the words of God to Mohamed, so why didnt the angel talk directly to us, why Mohamed, guess this made him a bit special ... Why can't we all communicate directly with God ... why do we have this life? You might find some answers in the Koran Why did the pharoes, last so long, they weren't muslims or christian, why did God leave them prosper, and why did he take em away? Where are the kings of the past, and where is their kingdoms ... and why did God burry those in the sand? You may find some answers in the Koran, and maybe you wont, but first its nice you asked the question .... please find some answers, I did find plenty of answers in the Koran, and not only that, the Koran helped me and even suggested some of the questions ... Your not the first to ask, but its nice you remmmembered to ask, we all seem to forget about the basics, and the difference Mohamed makes, I dont pray because it make senses, I pray because sent his message ...people should pray, i not preparing for the after life because it makes sense, .... i am preparing for the after life because it existed, God spoke to his prophets and the prophets (notice the plural) delivered the message Mohamed, was special, not because he was the first prophet, but because he was the last .... Was he lucky, well, if you believe in God, would you believe in luck .... He was blessed I think ... I dont know if it makes sense, but maybe you should read more about Mohamed pre-islam ... Many ppl, can point you to God, but not all were prophets ... And whats sad is, its not really about Mohamed, its about his message, and he didnt create it or make it up, he didnt even ask for it, he was just a messenger, so how special was he as a person, doesn't really matter, of course God must have picked a really good trustworthy man to deliver his message, and he was trustworthy, if i have any doubts its not from Mohamed, its from the people that followed ... but its really more about the message, God will judge you for what you did, how you spent your life, what you belived in what you didn't believe in Finally, you have the right to doubt Mohamed ... I think I am trying to help you doubt him in the fairest and best way possible ... I just doubt other stuff I believe, God sent prophets, and I believe Mohamed was the last one ... part of my time I spend, reading and doubting what others carried as God's message (by others I dont mean other prophets, i mean the ppl who followed and saved the prophet words) ... The thing is, I do read the message as God's message ... really God's Edited by systems Feb. 25, 2006, 04:03:36 PM EST Expand All History
Post #246,260 by ben_tilly 2/27/06 12:21:59 PM Reply	You've just proven my point You seem to be unable to comprehend exactly how big the gap is between where I am and where you'd like me to be. Here are some working points for you: I don't believe there is a God. I believe that Mohammed was a particularly lucky cult leader. I don't believe that Mohammed was a prophet. I don't believe that the Koran has any special claim to truth. Absolutely nothing that you've said even addresses my world view, let alone tries to challenge it. So Mohammed claimed to be a prophet. I knew that. So he gave a rationale for why God sent a man rather than an angel. Well that is a question that he'd have to answer, isn't it? Why did the pharaohs last so long? There are some solid geographic and historical reasons for that. (Note that they didn't actually last as long as people think they did, they got replaced a number of times. For instance Cleopatra was Greek. [link\|http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/timeline.shtml\|http://www.bbc.co.uk...ns/timeline.shtml] gives a timeline.) I don't know what answer the Koran gives for why Mesopotamia (ie Iraq) is now desert, but the real reason is salinity from irrigation. (We are doing the same on a much larger scale to our farmland today.) Now nothing of what I said will seem in the slightest convincing. I am aware of that, and am not trying to convince you of anything. I am not trying to tell you to believe differently then you do. I am explaining why what you're saying will not convince me to believe differently than I do. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #246,268 by jb4 2/27/06 1:33:36 PM Reply	<tweak /> ;-) jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
Post #246,130 by Ashton 2/25/06 3:07:59 AM Reply	Re: I don't doubt your faith, but it's not for me. In the end.. while it seems that you wish to approach the current world dilemmas in an admirably nonconfrontational way, there may be an insurmountable impediment. Discourse and its employment of reasoning - ever depends upon Language. Language, in turn - depends upon the referents for the nouns used in its sentences. Metaphysics may be 'pointed towards', within such language, but this scale of contemplation remains forever handicapped, for the fact that: there are no [common referents] for many of its constructs - not the least of which: for 'God', by-whatever-synonym. Failure to acknowledge the qualities of this domain - that of metaphysics - and to attempt 'historical' persuasion or even (and perhaps most deadly) wrongly employ the mathematical -strictly-logical- methods of proof, in service to a metaphysical idea: Has led to all these wars - the thousands of past ones, the present ones and the guaranteed future ones. Have you considered another approach to dealing with these matters? Try: the species remains in what seems perpetual adolescence. People die for (and kill for) their personally-preferred metaphors, every day. There is nothing adult in this (as we define 'adult' - when studying other forms of animal life.) Ergo - in my opinion: most-all pedestrian discussions of the Righteousness of this or that symbolic 'God' and His/Her followers via revealed dogma - is as pointless as seeking to go further North than the North Pole. But.. go ahead on. It's a popular pastime, in between the inevitable wars. We may not outgrow our habits before they kill us all - that is, most all species save perhaps: the cockroach and several paramecia. (We now have the means of precipitating nuclear winter. And enough repressed anger and the hubris of Righteousness.. to use them. Perhaps sooner rather than later. Those arsenals have a built-in 'half-life', you know.) Meanwhile, enjoy the daily experience of life and don't look at your calendar; Life never feels more precious than when one sees a precipice looming. There is method in preferring Quality of that, to Quantity - a few sages have remarked.
Post #246,137 by drewk 2/25/06 8:01:43 AM Reply	Stark Trek episode idea (new thread) Created as new thread #246136 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=246136\|Stark Trek episode idea] === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]

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