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New Economics
Actually I would say Iran is more dangerous, because it probably follows a better idealogy.

I don't no much about the shiite-islam, I am sunni by birth.

Take my words witha grain of salts, I am not an expert, just telling what I know so far.

In islam, between muslims the debate is usually, mind vs script.

The choice of the word mind is probably misleading and hurts muslims.

Usually, to know what to do, you have one of two choices, find a script that tells you what to do, or use ur mind.

By using your mind you rely on logic common sense, and you own personal (potential wrong, evil, misguided or stupid) opinion

Being a sctrict muslims, means, that for all matters for which an authentic script made a choice, you have no choice, dont think about the issue, just follow what the script say.

To be fair, for 90% or even more, the script is brilliant.
Even more so when compared to what existed before Islam

very few points in the scripts can cause problems, yes, the western media exagerate a lot.

Muslim women, wearing veils isnt such a big deal, what wrong in being modest? I'd even suggest that a women walking half naked is like sexual harrassment.

Things get a little silly when few ppl, start to interprete some scripts as to be forbiding listening to music.

But you know, if forbiding music, means we get rid of some of the authoritarian and totalitarian leaders we have, giving up music, would be a little price to pay

I dont want you to think that islam forbids music, this topic is debateable, but to be fair, some muslims, believes so.

Finally, Iran have a script, which with anything in it, that you would consider a flaw, is still a lot better than any communist idealogy.

Another point to add, some ppl really believe, that whats in those script, is what God really want, to giving away their lives, in comparison doesn't seem like a big deal. Manay ppl in wars sacrificed their lives for the american way, those ppl a doing it for God.

The problem is, to really debate a strict muslim, you have to study his script, because to really oppose someones ideas, you have to first know what they are.

Others things to add, hmmmm ....
Following the script, unlike what most ppl may tend to believe, means, that no one control you, because no one can change the script, so technically, strict muslims are more free than u think, they are free from men rule, amongst strict muslim, men dont rule men, God the source of the script, rule, through the script.

The best and only way, i think to oppose this, is that God created logic and common sense, and God rules us throught the logic he created, so another route to God, is through the study of logic, and the rules that he created. So what I think is right, isnt really my opinion, its what God created.

Christian, dont have and I think never had scripts as rigourous and as authentic as the muslims scripts, this is why in christianity when the pope rule its the pope will

In islam, in strict islam, we dont have such a thing

Finally, may God forgive me, if i was ever misleading, or spoke ignorance, my intentions were all good
New Deving into Religion....

Christian, dont have and I think never had scripts as rigourous and as authentic as the muslims scripts, this is why in christianity when the pope rule its the pope will


I am not willing to get into a debate on which religion has a better 'script'.

But I will argue that some forms of Christianity practice much what you mentioned.

  • Bans on Music
  • Bans on Dancing
  • Modesty in Dress
  • Tithing
  • Celibacy (one famous Christian religion practiced this to their demise)
  • Bans on Technology (Amish)
  • Bans on Medicine - from blood transfusions to little or not medicine at all


My point in all of this is that the issue a religion denying themselves something is not evidence, per se, that the religion is dangerous to society as a whole.

The biggest problem for Iran is that is has a lot of what America is addicted to.
Otherwise, for Americans, it would be a lot more like Malaysia.
Expand Edited by Simon_Jester Feb. 23, 2006, 09:22:52 AM EST
New It all makes sense now
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=201683|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=201683]

If you don't have a script, you are useless.
So you spend all your time searching for your script.
And the person who wrote the script is more important than what it says.
You are quickly willing to accept 10% of total bullshit, willingly, as long at the remaining 90% fits your notion of correctness. No matter how bad that 10% is.

You are silly enough to believe that your "leaders" are merely following the script as well, rather than interpreting it to their advantage.


Take my words witha grain of salts, I am not an expert, just telling what I know so far.


Nope. What you BELIEVE, not know.

In my household I don't differentiate between lazyness and stupidity, because the end result is the same. In your case, I'd say both apply.
New Scripts
Christian, dont have and I think never had scripts as rigourous and as authentic as the muslims scripts, this is why in christianity when the pope rule its the pope will

1) The pope rules Catholics, not Christians. Catholicism is a subsect of Christianity.

2) As I understand it, the Quran considers the religions of Christianity and Judaism to be "Followers of the Book" as well, meaning that their "scripts" are God-given word just as the Quran is. Hence, strict Islam should not consider its own scripts any more rigorous or authentic; merely later and/or more detailed.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Piling on...(a little bit, anyway)
Muslim women, wearing veils isnt such a big deal, what wrong in being modest? I'd even suggest that a women walking half naked is like sexual harrassment.

So this is your crown of creation, a society that is so out of control and (if possible) even more afraid of its collective sexuality than America's, that it has to hide a woman's face for fear that ithe mere sight of it would uncontrollably excite the beholder? And has to rely on a "script" to enforce it?

That's some seriously sad shit, my friend....
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New Immodest dress is an issue for many Christian religions
New There is only one Christian religion.
The sub-divisions within it are sects. HTH!


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105|Mr. Hat]
New Immodest dress is an issue for many Christian **sects**...
Especially of the fundie whack-job variety. Yet I don't know of any Christian (with the possible exception of the sickest of the fundie whack-jobs) who would accept stoning of a woman for failing to veil her face, or for automatically exonerating the husband for any "punishment" he would mete out to a wife who failed to veil her face. Do you?
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New Re: Economics
In islam, between muslims the debate is usually, mind vs script.

The choice of the word mind is probably misleading and hurts muslims.

Usually, to know what to do, you have one of two choices, find a script that tells you what to do, or use ur mind.

By using your mind you rely on logic common sense, and you own personal (potential wrong, evil, misguided or stupid) opinion

Being a sctrict muslims, means, that for all matters for which an authentic script made a choice, you have no choice, dont think about the issue, just follow what the script say.

That is a pretty common argument among Christians also. And from what I have seen it works out the same way among Muslims as it does among Christians. Everybody says they are going by the simple text of the script/book, but in fact there is a huge number of conflicting beliefs about what the script/book says and means.

Every group is to some degree selective about what they obey and they reject, what parts / books / versions / schools they believe in, and which leaders they accept as correct and which they consider wrong. This means that reason is always a factor, but the strongly religious generally prefer to ignore that point.

Muslim women, wearing veils isnt such a big deal, what wrong in being modest? I'd even suggest that a women walking half naked is like sexual harrassment.

If that is what the Muslim women want to wear then fine. But far too many Muslims think they have the right to enforce their religion on others. Take the situation in Afganistan, where women wear the heavy robes becuase they fear for their lives if they do no, or France, where many Muslim women where for the head scarf ban because they wore them only out of fear.

The problem is, to really debate a strict muslim, you have to study his script, because to really oppose someones ideas, you have to first know what they are.

Which is a two way street, and undertanding of America is just as rare in the middle east as any undertanding of the middle east is in the US.

Christian, dont have and I think never had scripts as rigourous and as authentic as the muslims scripts, this is why in christianity when the pope rule its the pope will

In islam, in strict islam, we dont have such a thing

In most versions of Islamic history, Islam came pretty close in the period right after the death of Muhammad. But once the Shia / Sunni split happened there was never a single unified Muslim religion and thus no chance a single absolute authority like the Pope could remain.

Jay
New Re: Economics
But you know, if forbiding music, means we get rid of some of the authoritarian and totalitarian leaders we have, giving up music, would be a little price to pay

I figure you didn't mean it quite this way, but... after we're done getting rid of totalitarian leaders by banning music, can we next eliminate obesity by making Big Macs free at every McDonalds?
Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for.
You don't need George Bush for that.
New Re: Economics -- few more points
I think I need to clarify few more points,
first you need to know, I do believe in God, and I do believe Muhamed is his prophet.

Muhamed said, and spoke many things, that validates him as a prophet,
there are few things I like to hold on too, whenever I feel in doubt.

"la illah illa Allah" , There is not God but God, Allah is God in arabic, some westerners interprete it as a name, and no i isnt, its more like an adjective i think.

if it were not for Muhamed I would not have learned that, he taught us that, if you think, about it, if you grew up repeating it, you will love it and respect, one God one creator, for us all.

Islam (remember this is what Muhamed told us) teach us. not to put any barrier between us and God, no priest, no church, no nothing, anyone can speak to God, directly, no stones, no walls, no nothing

And think about it, if there is a God, wouldnt this be the only way ....
And this is what Muhamed told, in a time ppl use to workship statues,and the sun and the moon, and all other objects

Islam teach us, that there is nothing like God ... which is .... just smart

Islam, teach us to use our minded, repeatedly in th Quran, the stories complains about ppl who dont use there minds, to reach God, and follow there .... lust

Islam tell us to pray, and that praying is a must, mandatory, ... this means, that not only God exist, not only God is watching, not only that God is wanting, God is demanding, that we talk to him, ask him for stuff

Islam teach us, that we are not thankfull enough, and think about it, look around, you, God created sex .... this i enjoy, God created love .... God created hate, so that there can be love, God created the internet ... God gave us science, so that we can make our life better

Islam, taught me, how to reach for God in the most respectful ways ....

Just because I got issues with few sentences, I would not .... would never reject the rest of it, for one, maybe the problem is in me, maybe i dont get it,

But when I look around, and see ppl, kneeling for other ppl, or ppl kneeling for stones, i cant help but feeling lucky, and wanting to teach those ppl what I learned, from Muhamed

Dont kneel to stone, ... plus who told you to kneel to those stones, and why do u believe him, whats the origin of this ... ppl should have more pride for their minds

this is part/kinda what i meant by script authenticity, we are almost sure of the source of the scripts in islam, we know exactly who repeated them to who and so on and so force, a strict method was used to validate them
nothing like this i heard exist in any other religion
search for the word "isnad" or "sanad"
look here too [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isnad|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isnad]

so when ppl believe in the muslim script so stricly, its not that they are being strict for the sake of it, but also because, there is strong reasons to believe the script was not modified, and there is strong reasons, to believe Muhamed is the prophet of God

few things in the quran for example, verses that suggest that both the sun and the moon have some sort of path, in which they run

and i searched the net, i knew the moon have an orbit in which it circles, i didnt know about the sun, and it turns out that also the sun orbits around something , this is a very recent discovery aslo verses like these help me when i feel in doubt

this is mainly what i wanted to add,
when i said the script is brilliant, i truely mean it

i am not the best person to teach u about islam. and considering how seriously, as a muslim i am asked to take the script, as in not repeat it in a way that modify its meaning, i really dont want to take such responsibility

so finaly, i suggest if you think of urself as a good person, to read why so many ppl believe Muhamed was for real, and then judge for urself
New okay...recommend this thread move to religion
New Re: Economics -- few more points
Islam (remember this is what Muhamed told us) teach us. not to put any barrier between us and God, no priest, no church, no nothing, anyone can speak to God, directly, no stones, no walls, no nothing

And think about it, if there is a God, wouldnt this be the only way ....

That part is quite sensible. What I never understood is why Islam has so many rules about how to pray, since those are simply barriers of another form.

this is part/kinda what i meant by script authenticity, we are almost sure of the source of the scripts in islam, we know exactly who repeated them to who and so on and so force, a strict method was used to validate them
nothing like this i heard exist in any other religion
search for the word "isnad" or "sanad"
look here too [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isnad|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isnad]

Isnads are only important because Islam includes so much material as things said by Mohammud that are not in the Koran itself. Christians consider the Bible alone as being the word of god, and thus there is less question about which parts are authentic or not. Also, you should read the Wikipedia entry closer, none of the hadith exactly match. Isnads accepted in one collection where rejected in the others and thus there must be at least some errors.

this is mainly what i wanted to add,
when i said the script is brilliant, i truely mean it

If you really want to get into an argument over the validity and accuracy of the Koran, head over the Religion forum. But I'll warn you, there are quite a few posters here that are very knowledgable about such things.

Jay
New I am reminded...
of a Pakistani that I knew in grad school. He tried to convince me of Islam. I quickly became convinced that the primary difference between Muslim apologetics and Christian apologetics is that Islam never really developed any. Christianity has had to put up with a few centuries of trying to convince people through conversation. Islam spread through the sword, and so never had a need to develop elaborate rationales for why you should believe.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I don't doubt your faith, but it's not for me. (new thread)
Created as new thread #246006 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=246006|I don't doubt your faith, but it's not for me.]
New So Islam rejects polytheist religions (e.g. Hinduism)
"la illah illa Allah" , There is not God but God [...]

And what is Islam's "remedy" for followers of such religions?
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
Expand Edited by jb4 Feb. 24, 2006, 12:27:45 PM EST
New Nah. The Muslims and Hindus get along swell in Kashmir.
And since we're in the Regional/World Conflict forum, Kashmir is actually on topic.
Expand Edited by ChrisR Feb. 24, 2006, 02:06:44 PM EST
New The 'remedy' is simple: convert or die.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Of course. The hallmark of all enlightened people is...
...how they handle those who are less enlightened. Given this measure, one would rate the enlightenment quotient of Islam at a vanishingly small number.

systems, your [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=246014|protestations] about what ben_tilly wrote regarding Islam being spread by the sword ring more than a little hollow....
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New jb4
jb4

you asked:

And what is Islam's "remedy" for followers of such religions?


what do you mean, i dont understand your question specially since it comes after quoting me saying "la illah illa Allah" ... which translates to "there is no God but God" ...

if I believe that, there is no God but God, how do you think i should state, of should i not, fearing i would offend others !!!

Anyway, read verse 6:108 , 6 is the surah number, 108 is the number of the verse inside the surah, the Koran is composed of surah(s) , which are compsed of verses, or in other words, composed of verses, which were grouped into surah(s)
you can use this link to find verse 108 in surah 6
[link|http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html|http://www.usc.edu/d...uran/006.qmt.html]

How i understand it says , we should not insult the disbelievers, so they dont in turn insult God, and this would be because they dont really know or understand

As for the figthing part, the i think verse may clear few thinks up
verse 2:190
[link|http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html|http://www.usc.edu/d...uran/002.qmt.html]

Its clear, God, doesn't love transgressors, but, when we have too, we should fight ... makes sense, its practical and pragmatic

put in mind, this is what was in he Koran for the past 1400 + years, the Koran never changed ... so i didnt make it up just for this conversation, this is very very very very very old
this was at the time, where arabs killed their newly born female children, fearing they would be captured and turned into slaves

how many ppl today, insult muslims in their faith and call it conversation, and think they are funny

and you also said:

systems, your protestations [*] about what ben_tilly wrote regarding Islam being spread by the sword ring more than a little hollow....


I am having difficulties understanding the english expression .... rings more than a little hollow... what does you mean!

is this good bad, i am not sure ...
in the same thread i furthur clarified what was making me feel bad, hope it helped
Expand Edited by systems Feb. 25, 2006, 06:56:47 PM EST
Expand Edited by systems Feb. 25, 2006, 06:58:29 PM EST
New Must be an Islamic thing...
...to write one paragraph sentences for the sake of emphasis?
New Nah, I do it also.
New You make it all sound so simple. (new thread)
Created as new thread #246177 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=246177|You make it all sound so simple.]
New How do you read Quran 5:10? (new thread)
Created as new thread #246183 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=246183|How do you read Quran 5:10?]
New So Muslims that want to destroy Israel are sinners?
002.047
YUSUFALI: Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).
PICKTHAL: O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.
SHAKIR: O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.
I'm just curious.
Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
New Re: So Muslims that want to destroy Israel are sinners?
I was reluctant to reply, for many reasons, reading and interpreting the Koran should be taken with care, you don't want to claim that God said something that God didn't


Also your comment have a bad ... I dont know how to explain, a bad feeling probaly. You know islam been around for almost 1400 years, and it was studies rigourously and have a huge literature and you can find thousands of books writen to explain islam, so when u read a verse and think of an obviously wrong or bad meaning of it, consider giving islam and muslims the benefit of doubt, probably one scholar along the years felt the same way, and found an answer or asserted your doubt. So similar to what ppl say to ppl who ask naiive programming questions, did you read the manual, did you search the web.


I know you probably dont have time for this, but since you dont, please dont just assume and answer, or assume you got it right


I am not a muslims scholar, and i dont claim to be one, i am representing myself as a guy from the other side, and ... thats all


Anyway, I dont think its always a sin to attack israelies, they dont have special protection


There are justifiable attacks (self defense) and unjustifiable attacks (aggression)


Being israeli won't give you special protection, being israeli according to this verse, probably means they have greater responsibilities and less excuses, but then to give a full and complete interpretation i need to research aaaand I dont have time for this now


Whether israelies are aggressors or not, is a different debate ...
Expand Edited by systems Feb. 28, 2006, 03:59:48 AM EST
New Nice dodge...gambit rejected
Systems, this is a 'did you or did you not have sex with that woman' moment...and you flunked.
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New Thanks for responding. I well knew it would be difficult...
for you.

Old synagogues in Cairo and Baghdad tell me that Jews have had some protection from persecution in the Muslim world.
Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
New That's because Jews don't proselytize.
As long as they accept they are "lower" than the Muslims, at least publicly, and don't proselytize, they are tolerated.
New And everyone should follow their example! :)
The "lower than" part is of course not right.
Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
New When something "rings hollow"
(or is said to "have a hollow ring about it"), it's truth is suspect; the listener to it doesn't believe that the speaker is earnest in speaking it. (The derivation, I believe, has to do with making castings, specifically bells, in the early Industrial Age, where molding and casting techniques were not as refined as now. A bell or other casting that had a "hollow ring" to it was thought to have a flaw or imperfection that could not be seen, but could be heard in the vibrations of it when struck.)

In this particular case, I'm refering to your seeming offense at ben_tilly's use of the term, "Islam being spread by the sword", when you yourself have acknowledged that Islam was indeed foisted upon various Infidels with the implicit and/or explicit threat of bodily harm.
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New The irony is it's not supposed to be that way.
Way back when, they were quite tolerant of Christians and Jews because that's what the Quran told them to do.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New I guess somebody 'lost' that script....
How convenient!
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New But we were talking polytheists here . . .
. . I haven't heard they ever had any admonitions against killing those folks.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Yep, my bad.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Define "tolerant"
Meaning, they allowed them to live as long as they didn't says anything that could be considered a contradiction of Islam?
New By the standards of the day, that was generous
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
     Iran perhaps more dangerous than Soviet Union - (tablizer) - (40)
         Economics - (systems) - (36)
             Deving into Religion.... - (Simon_Jester)
             It all makes sense now - (broomberg)
             Scripts - (admin)
             Piling on...(a little bit, anyway) - (jb4) - (3)
                 Immodest dress is an issue for many Christian religions -NT - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                     There is only one Christian religion. - (CRConrad)
                     Immodest dress is an issue for many Christian **sects**... - (jb4)
             Re: Economics - (JayMehaffey)
             Re: Economics - (GBert)
             Re: Economics -- few more points - (systems) - (26)
                 okay...recommend this thread move to religion -NT - (Simon_Jester)
                 Re: Economics -- few more points - (JayMehaffey)
                 I am reminded... - (ben_tilly)
                 I don't doubt your faith, but it's not for me. (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                 So Islam rejects polytheist religions (e.g. Hinduism) - (jb4) - (21)
                     Nah. The Muslims and Hindus get along swell in Kashmir. - (ChrisR)
                     The 'remedy' is simple: convert or die. -NT - (Andrew Grygus) - (19)
                         Of course. The hallmark of all enlightened people is... - (jb4) - (12)
                             jb4 - (systems) - (11)
                                 Must be an Islamic thing... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                     Nah, I do it also. -NT - (broomberg)
                                 You make it all sound so simple. (new thread) - (broomberg)
                                 How do you read Quran 5:10? (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                                 So Muslims that want to destroy Israel are sinners? - (a6l6e6x) - (5)
                                     Re: So Muslims that want to destroy Israel are sinners? - (systems) - (4)
                                         Nice dodge...gambit rejected - (jb4)
                                         Thanks for responding. I well knew it would be difficult... - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                             That's because Jews don't proselytize. - (broomberg) - (1)
                                                 And everyone should follow their example! :) - (a6l6e6x)
                                 When something "rings hollow" - (jb4)
                         The irony is it's not supposed to be that way. - (admin) - (5)
                             I guess somebody 'lost' that script.... - (jb4)
                             But we were talking polytheists here . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                 Yep, my bad. -NT - (admin)
                             Define "tolerant" - (broomberg) - (1)
                                 By the standards of the day, that was generous -NT - (ben_tilly)
         Re: Iran perhaps more dangerous than Soviet Union - (rcareaga) - (1)
             Machiavelli would be proud -NT - (drewk)
         Iran may be a bigger threat to nuke somebody - (JayMehaffey)

Until it's frozen.
173 ms