But the first implies the second.

Post #23,469 by marlowe 1/8/02 9:29:27 AM Reply	But the first implies the second. No one can obey a would-be authority that doesn't give self-consistent orders. One may try, but there's no pleasing it. Life is an endless and futile struggle with double binds and shifting goalposts. And what is discipline but consistency in practise? And doesn't consistency boil down to picking a purpose/direction and sticking to it? John Walker's parents were too "open minded" to open their mind to any sort of concrete, definable purpose. What little consistency their lives had was doubtless force of habit. (I'm saying this based on people I've known who I'm sure are the same type. Yes, I'm stereotyping. So sue me.) Their kid didn't have the benefit of their force of habit, so he went off on a wilder tangential trajectory than they ever could. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #23,617 by dmarker2 1/9/02 8:34:24 AM Reply	Re: Probably Right. - from my own experience ... Had a few children 1 natural 2 adopted 3&4 natural 5 adopted Was fascinated by the different personalities & how evident they were from as young as a couple of weeks old (maybe personalities is not the right word - could be character patterns). Anyway #1 was a girl - strong willed artistic intelligent (still is all those things at 30+) #2 was a bit scared of the world but was otherwise a good baby (slep well fed well once extracted from the baby's home that seemed so oppressive (more like a funeral home than a babies home) when we went to get him. More on him later. #3 girl was from the start & remains the most confident & capable person #4 girl was born with a disorder - aspergers - lovely kid but speaks excitedly & has great difficulty grasping abstract concepts - is on a govt pension (but dad pays most of her rent & bills. She is not really capable of full-time employment but managed to sing in a small group for a few years - has a photographic memory #5 was always brimming with confidence once he was was collected from a district hospital where we shoe-horned him off 3 nurses who carried him out for us to take away. The hospital & his nurses seemed bright & happy & he was too. Anyway - at one point in their young lives #1-3 were placed in a Convent school just down the road - run by a tough old Irish order called Mercy nuns - after 6 months mum & dad decided that school was from the dark ages & put them over to a nearby Dominican convent where instead of Black the nums wore white & they ran an 'open-plan' school - totally revolutionary in its day & most un catholic. Anyway #1 thrived in the freedom of open-plan - she was born an open=plan kid. #2 was completely lost - didn't seem to grasp the freedom & noise around him #3 also thrived Point was that we had to move #2 to a school that told him what to do cause he needed it whereas #1 & 3 didn't seem to That was my life's lesson at close hand about how kids do vary re amount of direction needed & given. Cheers Doug
Post #23,666 by Ashton 1/9/02 4:49:47 PM Reply	Nature / nurture An 'argument' doomed to futility.. can one say inextricably entwined ? But here's a brief example I think correlates with your experience: At supermarket checkout line. Baby in a cart facing me, as mom unloads stuff onto the conveyor. His? her eyes were luminous (to me, and to a friend with me). We had about a 2 minute 'conversation', this infant and I! Her eyes followed me and I made facial gestures. She laughed, made her own. Became almost pensive at a few points, before resuming the exchange - which I believe entirely possible ('pensive' that is) from the womb on. I exaggerate only slightly in suggesting that she appeared to personify some sort of Buddha-child (as was D's take on the play, also). We both spoke to the mother eventually - and she just smiled. Other people around, noticed this child's unusual 'presence'. Extraordinary event, 'least in my lexicon - but it is about what's possible and not the imagined norm. There are other stories of similar ilk - one I recall re a baby speaking quite early, even to saying in pretty good English, "mommy I want some milk". Again - prodigy but.. enough to debunk lots of generalizations we make about 'infant consciousness' IMO. Cheers, Ashton

Welcome to IWETHEY!