Post #23,321
1/6/02 9:10:27 PM
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Teen suicide pilot was bin Laden worshipper
[link|http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20020106/us/plane_crash_31.html|Well, it figures.]
Excerpt:
TAMPA, Fla. (AP) - The 15-year-old who crashed a small plane into a skyscraper wrote a note expressing sympathy for Osama bin Laden and support for the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, police said Sunday.
The short, handwritten suicide note found in Charles Bishop's pocket said he acted alone, Tampa Police Chief Bennie Holder said. The high school freshman had no apparent terrorist ties, Holder said.
``Bishop can best be described as a young man who had very few friends and was very much a loner,'' Holder said. ``From his actions we can assume he was a very troubled young man.''
Bishop crashed the Cessna 172R into the 42-story Bank of America building after taking off without authorization and ignoring signals to land from a Coast Guard helicopter that pursued the plane. Bishop was the only fatality.
I say:
Think of it as evolution in action. I'll hazard a guess K5 is short one regular.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
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Post #23,323
1/6/02 9:43:00 PM
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Re: Baby Boomers lack of parenting haunts west
Read an interesting article on the w/e that honed in a pet topic of mine - Issue of if "children are better or worse off for lack of home corporal punish ment".
Topic highlighted that many countries were introducing laws that make it illegal to smack or physically punish children.
It nows seems to be politically incorrect to discuss or justify smacking children. What this argument fails to deal with is the consequences, these are
1) The high probability that many children will lack self discipline as them move into adulthood
2) That if a smack on the backside isn't allowed, then the greater evil of psychological beating is likely to replace it. There are almost no laws, nor any way of realistically enforcing such laws in regard to crippling a child emotionally. Lord knows that the history of psychiatry is full of theories on what evil can be perpetrated through mental violence.
The problem of allowing parents to smack children is in the inconsistency of the application of the deed.
Trying to get agreement on what is too little & what is too much by way of corporal punishment, seems like an impossibility. Also if a parent has a drinking problem, it has to be obvious that they should never be permitted to get into the habit of striking their children.
The issue re the Walkers of the world & this latest pathetic soul, is that we in the west may well be paying the price for backing off sensible discipline of our children.
Doug Marker
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Post #23,342
1/7/02 2:16:02 AM
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Smart and directed discipline
I don't remember very clearly, but I think I was spanked a couple of times, maybe.
The behavioral psychologists will say that by punishment, you will discourage that particular behavior but you don't know where the alternative behavior may go.
I say: Okay, forty years of Dr. Spock and we have John Walker and suicide 15-year olds. Maybe smacking them a good one when they were six years old would not have been a solution, but the laisse faire philosophy of "whatever" isn't exactly the answer, either. We don't want to beat the kid, but judicious use of a paddle might be better than swearing it off completely.
Having a parent tell a kid "Oh go ahead, explore whatever" was not what John Walker wanted. From the reports, he "wanted to be told precisely how to dress, to eat, to think, to pray. He wanted a value system of absolutes, and he was willing to go to extreme lengths to find it." (MSNBC.com) If he'd been given some direction at home when he needed/wanted it, perhaps he'd not be where he is today.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
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Post #23,346
1/7/02 3:27:23 AM
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Re: Your line makes sense
Corporal punshment may well have little to do with a lack of direction, just an issue to do with obedience & authority.
Telling a kid they can explore what they want, when in fact they want guidance and direction sounds pretty close to the cause of Walkers wanderings.
Perhaps there really are 2 issues here -
1 - Obedience & discipline
2 - a sense of purpose and direction
loose either one in childhood & there is likely to be a problem.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #23,392
1/7/02 3:25:01 PM
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That which can never be 'legislated': discrimination ____:(
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Post #23,469
1/8/02 9:29:27 AM
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But the first implies the second.
No one can obey a would-be authority that doesn't give self-consistent orders. One may try, but there's no pleasing it. Life is an endless and futile struggle with double binds and shifting goalposts.
And what is discipline but consistency in practise? And doesn't consistency boil down to picking a purpose/direction and sticking to it?
John Walker's parents were too "open minded" to open their mind to any sort of concrete, definable purpose. What little consistency their lives had was doubtless force of habit. (I'm saying this based on people I've known who I'm sure are the same type. Yes, I'm stereotyping. So sue me.) Their kid didn't have the benefit of their force of habit, so he went off on a wilder tangential trajectory than they ever could.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
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Post #23,617
1/9/02 8:34:24 AM
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Re: Probably Right. - from my own experience ...
Had a few children
1 natural
2 adopted
3&4 natural
5 adopted
Was fascinated by the different personalities & how evident they were from as young as a couple of weeks old (maybe personalities is not the right word - could be character patterns). Anyway #1 was a girl - strong willed artistic intelligent (still is all those things at 30+)
#2 was a bit scared of the world but was otherwise a good baby (slep well fed well once extracted from the baby's home that seemed so oppressive (more like a funeral home than a babies home) when we went to get him. More on him later.
#3 girl was from the start & remains the most confident & capable person
#4 girl was born with a disorder - aspergers - lovely kid but speaks excitedly & has great difficulty grasping abstract concepts - is on a govt pension (but dad pays most of her rent & bills. She is not really capable of full-time employment but managed to sing in a small group for a few years - has a photographic memory
#5 was always brimming with confidence once he was was collected from a district hospital where we shoe-horned him off 3 nurses who carried him out for us to take away. The hospital & his nurses seemed bright & happy & he was too.
Anyway - at one point in their young lives #1-3 were placed in a Convent school just down the road - run by a tough old Irish order called Mercy nuns - after 6 months mum & dad decided that school was from the dark ages & put them over to a nearby Dominican convent where instead of Black the nums wore white & they ran an 'open-plan' school - totally revolutionary in its day & most un catholic.
Anyway #1 thrived in the freedom of open-plan - she was born an open=plan kid.
#2 was completely lost - didn't seem to grasp the freedom & noise around him
#3 also thrived
Point was that we had to move #2 to a school that told him what to do cause he needed it whereas #1 & 3 didn't seem to
That was my life's lesson at close hand about how kids do vary re amount of direction needed & given.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #23,666
1/9/02 4:49:47 PM
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Nature / nurture
An 'argument' doomed to futility.. can one say inextricably entwined ? But here's a brief example I think correlates with your experience:
At supermarket checkout line. Baby in a cart facing me, as mom unloads stuff onto the conveyor. His? her eyes were luminous (to me, and to a friend with me). We had about a 2 minute 'conversation', this infant and I! Her eyes followed me and I made facial gestures. She laughed, made her own. Became almost pensive at a few points, before resuming the exchange - which I believe entirely possible ('pensive' that is) from the womb on. I exaggerate only slightly in suggesting that she appeared to personify some sort of Buddha-child (as was D's take on the play, also). We both spoke to the mother eventually - and she just smiled. Other people around, noticed this child's unusual 'presence'.
Extraordinary event, 'least in my lexicon - but it is about what's possible and not the imagined norm. There are other stories of similar ilk - one I recall re a baby speaking quite early, even to saying in pretty good English, "mommy I want some milk". Again - prodigy but.. enough to debunk lots of generalizations we make about 'infant consciousness' IMO.
Cheers,
Ashton
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Post #23,368
1/7/02 9:57:53 AM
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Depends on the kid.
Most of these sorts of discussions devolve into absolutes... the reality is that what works for a John Walker will not work for another kid.
Regards,
-scott anderson
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Post #23,428
1/7/02 6:35:52 PM
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Re: Also depends on the Cultural environment.
There are marked differences in teenage behaviour between different cultures. There are some countries where kids - on average - behave quite differently to kids in other cultures.
Take issues like shooting your peers at school. Some cultures don't have that issue. There has to be a difference in the culture to exolane that n'est ce pas.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #23,353
1/7/02 9:11:39 AM
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A tad close for comfort
The building is next to the one I work in and I am on the 32nd floor. Hope he doesnt have any copycats. I dont think this kid was a true admirer of bin laden. He obsessed over sept 11th and decided to copy. This is the same as the teen suicide waves, one go and several others who would never think of it also kill themselves.
thanx,
bill
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
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Post #23,557
1/8/02 6:06:24 PM
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A whole `nuther story from another source
[link|http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/plane_tampa020108.html|Lies! Lies! All lies!]
Excerpt:
Officials began looking for terrorist links because of what they described as a suicide note found near Bishop, who died when the Cessna he took from National Aviation flight school slammed into the Bank of America Plaza tower on Saturday, expressing support for bin Laden.
"He told me he wanted to join the U.S. Air Force because he wanted to do something good for his country. He was a good boy," East Lake journalism teacher Gabriela Terry said. "The picture that is being portrayed of him is not the person that we knew and loved."
At the Dunedin Academy, the private school where Bishop went to eighth grade, teachers and administrators said the boy coordinated the production of a literary magazine, volunteered to serve as flag bearer for morning assemblies and sang patriotic songs such as "My Country 'Tis of Thee" louder than anyone else.
The boy's mother, Julie Bishop, and his grandmother, Karen Johnson, issued a statement saying they were "appalled and devastated over the incident," and that "Charles and his family have always fully supported our United States war on terrorism and Osama bin Laden."
I say:
Obviously one side or the other is lying. I don't know which, and I wouldn't put it past either side. But if he wasn't a bin Laden loony, why did he do it?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
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Post #23,570
1/8/02 6:48:02 PM
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Could it be some sort of a diabolical set up?
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Post #23,571
1/8/02 6:48:05 PM
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Could it be some sort of a diabolical set up?
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Post #23,587
1/8/02 8:31:19 PM
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Interview with suicide psychologist
Heard on the Ken Hamblin show (no, I don't have any links yet):
A psychologist specializing in teen suicides considered the Osama binLaden note to be a red herring, an attention-getter, not a "real" note.
Two classes of suicidal teens: those who are abandoned and lacking of normal social contact, and those who have a sudden irrational rage that leads them to commit suicide to "punish" their parents or other previously loved ones.
This guy's parents have vanished down a foxhole somewhere; we can't tell if this was an indulged but ignored guy.
Likewise, we can't yet say if he might have been jilted by a girlfriend.
But either possibility does fit the pattern as described by this psychologist.
Meanwhile there's a cry for "more safety more safety" which will undoubtedly get general aviation snared in more rules and regulations that wouldn't have prevented this incident anyway.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
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Post #23,618
1/9/02 8:48:27 AM
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LATEST Update
Kid was prescribed acutane a medicine for extreme acne that lists suicide as a known side effect. Still waiting for toxicology tests to see if he was using at the time of crash.
thanx,
bill
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
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Post #23,640
1/9/02 12:29:06 PM
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Skeptical about side effects
According to [link|http://www.house.gov/stupak/accutane_stupak_statement.htm|Representative Bart Stupak's testimony], there were a possible total of 84 suicides between 1983 and 1998 attributable, or so Stupak said, to Accutane use.
According to a later PDF document on [link|http://www.house.gov/stupak/accutane.htm|the overall Accutane page], there were 54 suicides between 1998 and 2000, and a similar number of attempts. That sounds pretty scary, doesn't it?
But wait. Suicide is the third leading cause of death in people of ages 15-25. It's depressingly hard to get exact figures via a Google search (lots of pages, few with hard stats), but according to [link|http://www.jaredstory.com/teen_epidemic.html|this page], 5000 young people between the ages of 15-25 commit suicide each year.
Those suicides being blamed on Accutane? Well, you'd have to take suicides vs. overall usage and compare that with the same statistics for the general population to make a good case, but given the number of young people who commit suicide, I'm finding it hard to believe that Accutane "caused" it.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
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Post #23,667
1/9/02 4:57:43 PM
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Forget 'causality'.. post-mortem (and lots of other places)
..as in our own experience, here.
But it might not be a stretch to expect, re the Accutane (gotta love Pharm-Chem warnings) er this might grow your penis another 2 inches OR it might make it fall off, but - them's the breaks. Ask Doctor to think it out for you, sweetie\ufffd
..not too much of a stretch that, taking this stuff -
Couldn't Hoit .. in the progression.
A.
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Post #23,681
1/9/02 7:09:25 PM
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Probable cause, Officer!
Given what Accutane is prescribed for (severe acne) and some of its other side effects (if not carefully monitored, sometimes instead of relieving the symptoms it even causes increased inflamation), it's easier to believe these kids are depressed and have self-image problems to begin with - and if the treatment doesn't seem to be working, I can easily imagine that setting someone off.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
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Post #23,782
1/10/02 2:09:26 PM
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Suicide runs in the family?
[link|http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2002/jan/10/011009250.html|His parents tried to kill themselves once]
Nature, nurture, it's hereditary either way. Excerpt:
Charles Bishop's mother, Julia, and father, Charles Bishara, entered into a suicide pact after they were denied a marriage license because they lacked the proper paperwork, the Malden (Mass.) Evening News reported in 1984.
"Basically it was a Romeo-and-Juliet type of suicide pact," Julia Bishop's attorney, Pam Campbell, told the St. Petersburg Times for Thursday's editions. "They were both very depressed. ... And they were very young."
Their son died Saturday when he crashed a stolen Cessna into Tampa's Bank of America building. Investigators said he had a suicide note expressing support for Osama bin Laden and the Sept. 11 attacks.
Charles Bishop's mother, the former Julia Detore, tried to marry Bishara when she was 17 and he was 19, but the couple was denied a marriage license in Rhode Island because of the paperwork problem.
The couple stuffed rags into the tailpipe of Detore's car and tried to fill it with carbon monoxide to kill them both, according to the 1984 newspaper accounts. When that failed, they allegedly agreed Detore would stab Bishara with a butcher knife, and he would slash her wrists with the same knife, the newspaper said.
After Bishara was stabbed, he asked Detore to call an ambulance, according to the newspaper. Paramedics found him on a sofa bleeding heavily with a lacerated liver. Bishara denied that the pair had attempted suicide, though Detore insisted that was the case.
Detore was charged with assault with a dangerous weapon with intent to commit murder. She was ordered to undergo a 20-day evaluation at a state hospital in Waltham, Mass.
Bishara's sister Dawn said her brother refused to cooperate with prosecutors, and the charge against Detore was dropped. Campbell, Bishop's attorney, said she was told that the court file was sealed.
The couple married after their son was born in 1986 but divorced when he was a baby.
The boy's father had little if any contact with him, and his other family members had no idea why he crashed the plane, Campbell said.
I say:
Okay, so far we've heard from everyone except Oliver Stone.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
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