Smart and directed discipline

Post #23,342 by wharris2 1/7/02 2:16:02 AM Reply	Smart and directed discipline I don't remember very clearly, but I think I was spanked a couple of times, maybe. The behavioral psychologists will say that by punishment, you will discourage that particular behavior but you don't know where the alternative behavior may go. I say: Okay, forty years of Dr. Spock and we have John Walker and suicide 15-year olds. Maybe smacking them a good one when they were six years old would not have been a solution, but the laisse faire philosophy of "whatever" isn't exactly the answer, either. We don't want to beat the kid, but judicious use of a paddle might be better than swearing it off completely. Having a parent tell a kid "Oh go ahead, explore whatever" was not what John Walker wanted. From the reports, he "wanted to be told precisely how to dress, to eat, to think, to pray. He wanted a value system of absolutes, and he was willing to go to extreme lengths to find it." (MSNBC.com) If he'd been given some direction at home when he needed/wanted it, perhaps he'd not be where he is today. "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." -- Donald Knuth
Post #23,346 by dmarker2 1/7/02 3:27:23 AM Reply	Re: Your line makes sense Corporal punshment may well have little to do with a lack of direction, just an issue to do with obedience & authority. Telling a kid they can explore what they want, when in fact they want guidance and direction sounds pretty close to the cause of Walkers wanderings. Perhaps there really are 2 issues here - 1 - Obedience & discipline 2 - a sense of purpose and direction loose either one in childhood & there is likely to be a problem. Cheers Doug
Post #23,392 by Ashton 1/7/02 3:25:01 PM Reply	That which can never be 'legislated': discrimination ____:(
Post #23,469 by marlowe 1/8/02 9:29:27 AM Reply	But the first implies the second. No one can obey a would-be authority that doesn't give self-consistent orders. One may try, but there's no pleasing it. Life is an endless and futile struggle with double binds and shifting goalposts. And what is discipline but consistency in practise? And doesn't consistency boil down to picking a purpose/direction and sticking to it? John Walker's parents were too "open minded" to open their mind to any sort of concrete, definable purpose. What little consistency their lives had was doubtless force of habit. (I'm saying this based on people I've known who I'm sure are the same type. Yes, I'm stereotyping. So sue me.) Their kid didn't have the benefit of their force of habit, so he went off on a wilder tangential trajectory than they ever could. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #23,617 by dmarker2 1/9/02 8:34:24 AM Reply	Re: Probably Right. - from my own experience ... Had a few children 1 natural 2 adopted 3&4 natural 5 adopted Was fascinated by the different personalities & how evident they were from as young as a couple of weeks old (maybe personalities is not the right word - could be character patterns). Anyway #1 was a girl - strong willed artistic intelligent (still is all those things at 30+) #2 was a bit scared of the world but was otherwise a good baby (slep well fed well once extracted from the baby's home that seemed so oppressive (more like a funeral home than a babies home) when we went to get him. More on him later. #3 girl was from the start & remains the most confident & capable person #4 girl was born with a disorder - aspergers - lovely kid but speaks excitedly & has great difficulty grasping abstract concepts - is on a govt pension (but dad pays most of her rent & bills. She is not really capable of full-time employment but managed to sing in a small group for a few years - has a photographic memory #5 was always brimming with confidence once he was was collected from a district hospital where we shoe-horned him off 3 nurses who carried him out for us to take away. The hospital & his nurses seemed bright & happy & he was too. Anyway - at one point in their young lives #1-3 were placed in a Convent school just down the road - run by a tough old Irish order called Mercy nuns - after 6 months mum & dad decided that school was from the dark ages & put them over to a nearby Dominican convent where instead of Black the nums wore white & they ran an 'open-plan' school - totally revolutionary in its day & most un catholic. Anyway #1 thrived in the freedom of open-plan - she was born an open=plan kid. #2 was completely lost - didn't seem to grasp the freedom & noise around him #3 also thrived Point was that we had to move #2 to a school that told him what to do cause he needed it whereas #1 & 3 didn't seem to That was my life's lesson at close hand about how kids do vary re amount of direction needed & given. Cheers Doug
Post #23,666 by Ashton 1/9/02 4:49:47 PM Reply	Nature / nurture An 'argument' doomed to futility.. can one say inextricably entwined ? But here's a brief example I think correlates with your experience: At supermarket checkout line. Baby in a cart facing me, as mom unloads stuff onto the conveyor. His? her eyes were luminous (to me, and to a friend with me). We had about a 2 minute 'conversation', this infant and I! Her eyes followed me and I made facial gestures. She laughed, made her own. Became almost pensive at a few points, before resuming the exchange - which I believe entirely possible ('pensive' that is) from the womb on. I exaggerate only slightly in suggesting that she appeared to personify some sort of Buddha-child (as was D's take on the play, also). We both spoke to the mother eventually - and she just smiled. Other people around, noticed this child's unusual 'presence'. Extraordinary event, 'least in my lexicon - but it is about what's possible and not the imagined norm. There are other stories of similar ilk - one I recall re a baby speaking quite early, even to saying in pretty good English, "mommy I want some milk". Again - prodigy but.. enough to debunk lots of generalizations we make about 'infant consciousness' IMO. Cheers, Ashton
Post #23,368 by admin 1/7/02 9:57:53 AM Reply	Depends on the kid. Most of these sorts of discussions devolve into absolutes... the reality is that what works for a John Walker will not work for another kid. Regards, -scott anderson
Post #23,428 by dmarker2 1/7/02 6:35:52 PM Reply	Re: Also depends on the Cultural environment. There are marked differences in teenage behaviour between different cultures. There are some countries where kids - on average - behave quite differently to kids in other cultures. Take issues like shooting your peers at school. Some cultures don't have that issue. There has to be a difference in the culture to exolane that n'est ce pas. Cheers Doug

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