yo at least rudy had a PD after 911 this guy has nothing

Post #222,536 by boxley 9/2/05 10:06:44 PM Reply	yo at least rudy had a PD after 911 this guy has nothing he is in charge of few cops and firefighters, he is trying to get help for the folks at the convention center and the national guard is threatening to shoot people there with no water who tried to break into the pantries. Fema claims that they didnt know about the 30k people there until late thursday, he is right it wasnt until the news feeds broke the story about conditions that anyone got off there ass to do a dam thing. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #222,539 by Silverlock 9/2/05 10:20:28 PM Reply	box makes sense As odd as that may be to hear from me, I agree with box on this one. Nagin just became the the mayor of Atlantis. He looks around and says, "It took 4 days to bring in damned supply trucks? To a city within our borders? What the fuck are you people doing out there?" ----------------------------------------- George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty. --Donald Dean Richards Jr.
Post #222,585 by SpiceWare 9/3/05 11:11:56 AM Reply	4 days? Yeah, the hurricane hit Monday, but other areas that were hit by the full strength of storm where the problem then. New Orleans didn't look to be a problem until Tuesday morning because of the levees. Evacuees were being bused into Houston on Thursday. I also recall seeing the people of New Orleans told "bring food for a few days". With all the reports of "we haven't eaten since Monday" it sure seems that like nobody did. And yet the feds are being blamed for that. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass\|Artistic Overpass]\n[link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #222,643 by Another Scott 9/3/05 4:52:47 PM 9/4/05 11:31:21 PM Reply	Nagin's Announcement from Saturday August 27. [edit:] Removed duplicate paragraph. [/edit] [link\|http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=1&load=~/PortalModules/ViewPressRelease.ascx&itemid=3139\|Here]: (New Orleans, LA) In response to the potential threat of Hurricane Katrina, Mayor C. Ray Nagin is urging all citizens to begin preparations now for the coming storm. Mayor Nagin will hold the next press briefing at 5 p.m. today in the Mayor\ufffds Press Room, second floor of City Hall. \ufffdAlthough the track could change, forecasters believe Hurricane Katrina will affect New Orleans,\ufffd said Mayor Nagin. \ufffdWe may call for a voluntary evacuation later this afternoon or tomorrow morning to coincide with the instatement of contraflow. This will give people more options to leave the area. However, citizens need to begin preparing now so they will be ready to leave when necessary. Do everything to prepare for a regular hurricane, but treat this one differently because it is headed our way. This is not a test.\ufffd The Mayor also recommended that residents of Algiers, the Lower Ninth Ward and low-lying areas begin evacuating now. [...] Shelters for Citizens with Special Medical Needs There are two shelters for people with special medical needs open in the state. Citizens should call prior to going to the shelters. The shelter in Alexandria can be reached at (800) 841-5778; the number for Monroe\ufffds shelter is (866) 280-7287. If it becomes necessary, other shelters will be opened in various cities. The Superdome will be opened as a refuge of last resort for special needs patients if it becomes necessary. All individuals may have one caretaker. Anyone planning to spend time in a shelter should bring three to four days\ufffd worth of food, sleeping gear, and medical supplies including oxygen, medicine and batteries for any necessary devices. No weapons or bulky items are allowed in any shelters. Emphasis added. It sounds like he told everyone the right things to do. My guess is that the word didn't get out to the poor areas (lots of people of every stripe don't watch, listen to, or read the news these days), or the poor were unable to act on the recommendations. The general Superdome mess is understandable. What's harder to fathom is the long delay in evacuating hospitals and taking care of those with serious medical conditions. It's not hard to understand that if the sick, poor and elderly (those who were unable to leave) congregate in huge numbers that there will be a large fraction with serious medical conditions that need frequent care. I just hope those in positions of responsibility learn from this disaster and share what they learn. It's still early in the [link\|http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/\|hurricane season]. :-( Cheers, Scott. Edited by Another Scott Sept. 4, 2005, 11:31:21 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #222,922 by Simon_Jester 9/5/05 2:34:06 PM Reply	He's been on the ball.... he wanted New Orleans evacuated before anyone else. he wanted support for the levees before they match lake levels (and might have save lives) he's already declared New Orlean unlivable and wants everyone out. That said, he's been a little foolish too. He's make comments that imply that because the people most affected were blacks that there was a racist goal regarding the lack of help (no racist goals, merely imcompentence). Furthermore, he's staying in the city....which kind of negates the whole "we need to get everyone out" approach. He's one very positive note is that I believe he stands by his words (I may not agree with them) and they seem to be based on facts. (Unlike the White House which is attempting to shift blame by declaring that the states didn't declare an State of Emergency.)
Post #222,925 by jake123 9/5/05 2:42:19 PM Reply	Let's not forget he's black, and probably understands racism in the public service more than most, even though he himself is mayor. There was a study done by and on the local police force up here (ie- Kingston Police Department) about stops; the first ever attempt to gather race statistics by police in this country evah. To start with, I'm going to give kudos to the local Chief of Police here (Bill Closs) for having the guts to stand up to both the police union and to various gov't departments that didn't want to have this study happen, and the result was pretty predictable to anyone who has eyes, ears, and any curiousity about the community: blacks were twice as likely to be stopped, and natives six times as likely to be stopped. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #222,931 by SpiceWare 9/5/05 2:58:22 PM Reply	I recall a similiar study in New Jersey and efforts to squelch it because it found the reason blacks where pulled over more was because they were speeding more. [link\|http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_2_the_racial_profiling.html\|The Racial Profiling Myth Debunked] According to the study commissioned by the New Jersey attorney general and leaked first to the New York Times and then to the Web, blacks make up 16 percent of the drivers on the turnpike, and 25 percent of the speeders in the 65-mile-per-hour zones, where profiling complaints are most common. (The study counted only those going more than 15 miles per hour over the speed limit as speeders.) Black drivers speed twice as much as white drivers, and speed at reckless levels even more. Blacks are actually stopped less than their speeding behavior would predict\ufffdthey are 23 percent of those stopped. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass\|Artistic Overpass]\n[link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #222,941 by bepatient 9/5/05 3:47:00 PM Reply	The more this gets covered... ...the more its starting to look like the Gov may have been overmatched by this situation. Regardless...rules will have to change. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #222,608 by bepatient 9/3/05 1:44:46 PM Reply	On Tuesday Nagin was complaining that there were "too many cooks in his kitchen" Now he's bitching that nobody did anything. Which is it? Too much support, or nobody there to help? He is in charge until someone tells him he isn't. All I hear him do is complain. He's no leader. Thats my point. Sure his people on the ground are in dire straits. But there are stories of police joining the looters. Handing in badges and running. Hmmm. Think they could use a leader? And if one more TV pundit or power hungry "civil rights" leader tells me this is only a problem cause the victims are black I may simply dive through the TV and kill the jerk myself. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. (pun DEFINITELY intended) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #222,647 by Simon_Jester 9/3/05 5:30:49 PM Reply	Give Nagin a little credit.... He's arguing there are no cooks in the kitchen because anyone with an ounce of IQ could see that the levees were going to break. They're only rated to a Cat 3 and with a Cat 5 headed their way... As for the too many chiefs, that's also real simple. Which do you do first - attempt to fix the levees or attempt to rescue individuals. Someone (or someones) decided to rescue individuals.
Post #222,661 by boxley 9/3/05 8:33:33 PM Reply	got from kuwait to bahgdad in 3 days, fighting all the way surely the 20 hrs before the storms bullseye hit the trucks should have been rolling east on I-20 from Atlanta the staging area and forward staged in Hattiesburg jackson birmingham. I can drive from ATL to hattiesberg in the storm bands in 8 hrs. They didnt even start moving out of atlanta until the storm bands were into Northern Alabama. What I will bet will come out is that the powers that be seeing a cat 5 come in figgered the levees wouldnt hold as long as they did and dead bodies sont need consumables. They then freaked after it was apparent that there was a shitload more survivors than they expected. No rush to fill body bags I guess. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #222,675 by bepatient 9/3/05 11:09:37 PM Reply	always love the monday morning quarterbackin we could have done alot of things differently. Too bad nothin like this ever happened for us to practice on first. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #222,679 by boxley 9/3/05 11:39:45 PM Reply	florida, last year 4 times "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #222,720 by bepatient 9/4/05 12:08:14 PM Reply	Nowhere close could've parked supplies in the southwest of FL and for the most part they would still be there. Not so with this one. This was a "scrub the earth" storm. Response is definitely not what we expect our government to be capable of. Some of the "rules of engagement" seem downright stupid now in hindsight. Requiring mayor and governer to ask for certain aspects of relief doesn't really consider that they simply may not be capable of asking for that assistance...or may be so overwhelmed as to not be able to handle the full responsibility of their duties (regardless of their capabilities). However, if the federal government would have taken those state responsibilities away before this crisis, we would likely have been debating the "federal power grab" by the Dept of Home Sec. Damned in you do, double damned when you don't. At least we have John Wayne. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #222,730 by boxley 9/4/05 12:37:03 PM Reply	birmingham jackson memphis montgomery lttlerock etc and now in one hour you can drive from baton rouge to the quarter on dry pavement and there is still a lack of clean water food and minor nescessities in the city. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #222,733 by bepatient 9/4/05 12:54:11 PM Reply	Not seeing the "still" in any coverage. Understand it was slow to get there. But its all there, including med care, food, water etc. And the current issue is get everyone out of the city. All of them. It will not be a safe place to live for several weeks. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #222,747 by jake123 9/4/05 3:14:15 PM Reply	Several months, I'd say It's going to take a looong time to clean that place up to a standard fit for human habitation. Some parts of the city will need to simply be buried for the necessary rehabilitation of the city's defences against the elements. Finally, I sincerely hope that they follow the example of the Netherlands after their big disaster and plan and build for the ten thousand year storm. I for one think that New Orleans should be rebuilt, and largely where it is now; there is a lot of history and culture in that place, and it's not like it can't be done. Furthermore, it represents a great opportunity to make some aspects of the city much better than it is now. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #222,760 by boxley 9/4/05 4:18:49 PM Reply	fox, now talking to 82 yo woman at valance and 14th "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #222,707 by Ashton 9/4/05 3:30:00 AM Reply	Right, Beep - never expect competence in anything New - only in the rehearsed. Are you then acknowledging that we are the post-competent society? (Except that, as Box mentions: 4 rehearsals. Even nearby. With water.) Starting with Iraq - how many free passes for execrable planning have you left in that Apologia ticket book? That booklet must weigh a ton..
Post #222,718 by bepatient 9/4/05 12:02:55 PM Reply	Nobody getting a free pass enough screwing up to go around If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #222,729 by hnick 9/4/05 12:27:51 PM Reply	There is no oversight either In a working social system there should be an ongoing critical analysis of the system in being. There is none here. I just develop wireless network systems and I am reviewed 4 times a year for performance. Our government, after each disaster/fuckup, goes through a period of finger pointing and distraction. Fortunately this is less than every 4 months. If we can bankrupt the country to meddle in another countrys politics, we can afford to have nonpartisan backup contingencies for important cities in our own county. It might even be nice to include the unimportant cities as well; they pay taxes too. There were a lot of screwups, local, county, state, and federal. It would be nice if the system would deal with this rather than sweep it under the rug. A real, rather than political, postmortem of the process would be of significant value. Assuming that anybody used the data other than to smear his opponent. Oh well, it was an idea...
Post #222,731 by imqwerky 9/4/05 12:48:57 PM Reply	I agree but the problem always boils down to the Benjamins...who is gonna pay for a study of how we fscked up. Nobody wants to fiddle with an open sore, unfortunately. It is similar in context to a situation that happened in real life: My dad got involved in a start-up venture. There were warning signs right and left that indicated the venture was being poorly managed. It went belly-up in less than a year. My dad, at age 57, risked everything and lost. It threw him into a deep depression that haunted him until his death from multiple myeloma at age 63. I suggested that he write a book about "how not to run a start-up". He could've made lemonade from the lemons...could have had a bestseller. But he was too embarrassed, depressed, and defeated to even put the whole mess into words. He didn't want to be a cautionary tale. I view this whole thing in N.O. as parallel to the above. No one wants to admit their mistakes. There is too much pride on the line - more's the pity. I will be watching to see if Nagin emerges as the one sane voice above the din. While I don't approve of him cussing out the Feds, I admire his courage to say what the people are saying...and not mincing words into the P.C. verbiage. I hope that someone: the academic community, a non-profit org., or anyone else with the time and resources, will shed light on what was done versus what should have been done. Unfortunately, the only way to learn is through the "School of Hard Knocks" (tm), "Hindsight 20/20" (tm), and "Doh!" (tm). Praying for peace, Amy "Losing your mind is like losing your keys. You have to retrace your steps to find out where you left it. But the bonus is that you usually find loose change in the cushions." ABR '05 :-D
Post #222,734 by bepatient 9/4/05 12:57:32 PM Reply	Trust me folks This will be investigated ad-nauseum. Problem >really< is...once the issues are identified they will magically never get fixed. Already I can hear the campaign promises being made in the next presidential that will certainly be between screwup number 1 (r) and screwup #2 (d)...since we, the greatest nation on earth...seem to be able to generate such great candidates for leadership. (sigh) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #222,756 by hnick 9/4/05 4:12:22 PM Reply	You evidently missed the nonpartisan part I'm not sure how to do it exactly, but if we can have judges with lifetime span tenures, why not government auditors? Consider: we put selected auditors through the same scrutiny we do for SC judges, and leave them in for life. Evidence of corruption resets life to 5 seconds from $NOW. Might be interesting...
Post #222,814 by Simon_Jester 9/4/05 7:48:03 PM Reply	Gosh BP.... you're starting to sound like Aston. ;-)
Post #222,832 by ben_tilly 9/4/05 10:09:13 PM Reply	What should have been done... The problem was forseeable and forseen. Why not mobilize before the hurricane struck? Some federal assistance moving people then would have saved money and lives compared to moving them after the area was a disaster. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #222,833 by Andrew Grygus 9/4/05 10:13:58 PM Reply	Too risky If the money had been spent to evacuate people and the disaster didn't happen after all, someone would have been blamed for wasting the money and that would be career threatening. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #222,839 by boxley 9/4/05 10:21:31 PM Reply	sometimes is depressing when you are right "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]

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