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New Shouting doesn't make you right.
And you're not.

"Users" don't clamour for anything; they just either abandon the product and move on, or quietly bitch about it to their colleagues.

Firefox has gone from zero to hero in a year or so by making "fine tuning" the sole provenance of advanced users.

Ubuntu has gone from nothing to 2nd on Distrowatch in 8 months or so by committing to a desktop that makes "fine tuning" the sole provenance of advanced users.

The users are voting with their feet. Simpler is better; GET OUT OF MY FACE is the message.

The KDE control panel basically says, "Hi. We're the KDE developers. Because we don't have much of a clue about what product we actually want to ship you, we'll duck that decision and let you figure it the fuck out."

There's no business win in excessive configurability[0], there's no development win in excessive configurability[1], and there's no usability win in excessive configurability[2].

Advanced users[3] are free to run window managers like Sawfish[4] and desktops like Enlightenment. But if KDE wants to reach The People and become A Desktop for Normal People, things are going to have to change. That's the coffee that the GNOME developers smelled. And the Firefox developers. And Thunderbird. Etc.

Fine tuning, for the vast majority of users, is just another obstacle to getting stuff done.

That said, I don't think KDE will change. It's not like this is the first time that someone's looked at the 72[5] configuration screens in the control centre and gone "Er, chaps. This is probably broken in many ways."
[0] Users waste time fiddling with the contrast on their 3d widgets and setting their mouse pointers to be cute dinosaurs.
[1] Testing.
[2] Users find it harder to change the stuff they do need to change because it's buried in 5 configuration menu items across two menus.
[3] Also known as "A very, very small number of users"
[4] I know, I know. They broke it. I don't believe the older version stopped managing windows magically.
[5] I counted them. There's a whole screen dedicated to the tao of the system bell.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Yes, but I would still like to be able to...
Manage these settings similarly to the way Firefox does. Not just removing the option dialogs, without doing something in some way without reverting to registry editing.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey

[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"]
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
New Wotsthediff...
...between the GConf Editor and About:config?

(Apart from the fact that the Gconf Editor Thing supports documenting the settings, whereas about:config doesn't)


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New No... there are
extensions to DO that editing and mnaging of the extended config.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey

[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"]
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
New Exsqueeze me? Yeah, I am right.
"Firefox has gone from zero to hero in a year or so by making "fine tuning" the sole provenance of advanced users."

Where do you get that fantasy? Firefox has made configuration more accessable. Hell the pipelining change can be done from te browser screen with simple instructions - pointy-clicky rather than edit a .js file.

"Fine tuning, for the vast majority of users, is just another obstacle to getting stuff done."


Once again, IF THEY DON'T WANT TO, NO-ONE IS FORCING THEM TO. REMOVING THE ABILITY IS THE SAME AS CRIPPLING THE ENVIRONMENT. Sane defaults are a grand vision. Enforcing your preferences by removing the ability to change is not.
"Ubuntu has gone from nothing to 2nd on Distrowatch in 8 months or so""

I'm not surprised at that - so, how many of those Ubuntu distros have been downloaded, burned and installed by the technically clueless target users that Gnome is supposedly aimed at? How many are being downloaded by those committed to free software and/or Debian policy? Somehow, I believe that the people downloading Ubuntu are more likely to be OUTSIDE the claimed target group.
"by committing to a desktop that makes "fine tuning" the sole provenance of advanced users."


Since I rather doubt that anybody downloading and installing Ubuntu is NOT an advanced user, again, I think not. Now, advanced users may be installing these things for Grandma or Grandpa, but I doubt youngsters will be interested; especially if they see the cool things that can be done elsewhere relatively easily - and the youngsters ARE the future. I know my ex's son, John, LOVES to fiddle. I'd have no problem giving KDE to his Grandma, either, (if she chose to climb off Windows) - she might not want to fiddle, so she won't. Both can use the same environment, easily.

"Simpler is better; GET OUT OF MY FACE is the message."


Which, of course, has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING I've said, Peter. Once again, with feeling:
IF USERS WANT TO "FINE TUNE", NO-ONE IS FORCING THEM TO. REMOVING THE ABILITY IS THE SAME AS CRIPPLING THE ENVIRONMENT.
"there's no usability win in excessive configurability[2]."

No? They've lost me - and others. Since I don't want it, I certainly won't recommend or support it for others. That's any number of future users. KDE is certainly NOT too hard for 'noobs' to use, no matter how Gnomes might want to characterize it.
"The users are voting with their feet."

And Gnome is such a win that they just lost a whole distro. Real 'demand'. I think we'll see more before this is done.


"[2] Users find it harder to change the stuff they do need to change because it's buried in 5 configuration menu items across two menus."

Soooo much harder than not being able to change it at all with out 'editing the registry'.


You should be able to deal with this simple truth (and simpler is better, no?):

Configurability and sane defaults are not mutually exclusive
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Re: Exsqueeze me? Yeah, I am right.
"Firefox has gone from zero to hero in a year or so by making "fine tuning" the sole provenance of advanced users."

Where do you get that fantasy? Firefox has made configuration more accessable. Hell the pipelining change can be done from te browser screen with simple instructions - pointy-clicky rather than edit a .js file.

It's not more accessible. Just because there's a big list of inscrutably named options put in a place that isn't advertised, that's not accessible.
"Fine tuning, for the vast majority of users, is just another obstacle to getting stuff done."

Once again, IF THEY DON'T WANT TO, NO-ONE IS FORCING THEM TO. REMOVING THE ABILITY IS THE SAME AS CRIPPLING THE ENVIRONMENT. Sane defaults are a grand vision. Enforcing your preferences by removing the ability to change is not.

Yes, they are being forced to; when they need to change something IMPORTANT, they have to wade through five or six menu options over two menus (Konqueror) to find what they want, because no-one on the project had the nads to say "Y'know what? There's three whole users who want the CGI Scripts option. Time to remove it.".
"Ubuntu has gone from nothing to 2nd on Distrowatch in 8 months or so""

I'm not surprised at that - so, how many of those Ubuntu distros have been downloaded, burned and installed by the technically clueless target users that Gnome is supposedly aimed at? How many are being downloaded by those committed to free software and/or Debian policy? Somehow, I believe that the people downloading Ubuntu are more likely to be OUTSIDE the claimed target group.

I'm confused by this paragraph. Ubuntu's target audience is normal people. That said, it's my desktop and server Linux of choice.
"by committing to a desktop that makes "fine tuning" the sole provenance of advanced users."

Since I rather doubt that anybody downloading and installing Ubuntu is NOT an advanced user, again, I think not. Now, advanced users may be installing these things for Grandma or Grandpa, but I doubt youngsters will be interested; especially if they see the cool things that can be done elsewhere relatively easily - and the youngsters ARE the future. I know my ex's son, John, LOVES to fiddle. I'd have no problem giving KDE to his Grandma, either, (if she chose to climb off Windows) - she might not want to fiddle, so she won't. Both can use the same environment, easily.

And then she wants to change her homepage from Yahoo! to Google, or make the fonts bigger all the time. Bing! She's instantly in trouble. Fiddlers can fiddle no matter the system; give them something designed by fiddlers for fiddlers. It's fvwm2, and there's nothing it can't do.
And your persistent speculation about the end users of Ubuntu is entertaining, but ultimately unhelpful. The bottom line is that it's second only to Mandrake (which takes a chainsaw to stock KDE) on DistroWatch's list.
"Simpler is better; GET OUT OF MY FACE is the message."

Which, of course, has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING I've said, Peter. Once again, with feeling:

IF USERS WANT TO "FINE TUNE", NO-ONE IS FORCING THEM TO. REMOVING THE ABILITY IS THE SAME AS CRIPPLING THE ENVIRONMENT.

This is where your misunderstanding arises. Crippling the environment, as you so emotively put it, is another way of saying "getting rid of all the useless cack that is really a big pile of excuses for not taking design decisions". Just what is it that you can't do in GNOME that you can do in KDE?
"there's no usability win in excessive configurability[2]."

No? They've lost me - and others. Since I don't want it, I certainly won't recommend or support it for others. That's any number of future users. KDE is certainly NOT too hard for 'noobs' to use, no matter how Gnomes might want to characterize it.

The number of users lost because there aren't enough configuration options in GNOME 2.10 is, I'm willing to bet a beer or three, not enough to cause the developers to develop anything like a sense of giving a shit.
"The users are voting with their feet."

And Gnome is such a win that they just lost a whole distro. Real 'demand'. I think we'll see more before this is done.

If you're referring to the Slackware Dropping GNOME story, then I can tell you I spoke to all the Slackware users in the world, and they both say they were using Enlightenment anyway.
"[2] Users find it harder to change the stuff they do need to change because it's buried in 5 configuration menu items across two menus."

Soooo much harder than not being able to change it at all with out 'editing the registry'.

What registry? Oh, Gconf? Because it's a tree, it's a registry? Then I dub the KDE Control Centre the "KDE Registry". Because it's a tree, right? And yes, sometimes not being able to change something at all is an acceptable tradeoff if the ability to change it causes too much pain for users.
You should be able to deal with this simple truth (and simpler is better, no?):

Configurability and sane defaults are not mutually exclusive

No, they're not; but it's a much harder design process than KDE would have you think.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New I am right.
"It's not more accessible."

It is. Further, poing and clicking is easier and more accessable to users. And a wee bit safer.
"Yes, they are being forced to"

Yeah, so much kcontrol use that I wasn't even aware of an actual kcontrol bug; that's how often I have to use it. Nonsense.
"I'm confused by this paragraph. Ubuntu's target audience is normal people."

No offense, but when it comes to being 'normal people' using Linux at all, I'm sure I qualify more closely than you do.
"really a big pile of excuses for not taking design decisions"

Funny, but that is exactly how I see the GNOME decision to cripple fine configuration.
"not enough to cause the developers to develop anything like a sense of giving a shit."

And this is why Gnome will marginalize itself. The developers don't give a shit, and rationalize by the 'target' hedge.
"If you're referring to the Slackware Dropping GNOME story, then I can tell you I spoke to all the Slackware users in the world, and they both say they were using Enlightenment anyway."

Heehee. Point taken.
"I dub the KDE Control Centre the "KDE Registry". Because it's a tree, right?"

An easy to use (in comparison) descriptive menu with help for the entries.
"No, they're not; but it's a much harder design process than KDE would have you think."

And as I said before, I would accept the argument that configuration comes later, but the hedge, the rationalization, that they don't have to do it anyway because nobody wants it, and they know better anyway, doesn't fly. At all.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
Expand Edited by imric March 28, 2005, 07:00:07 PM EST
Expand Edited by imric March 28, 2005, 07:00:41 PM EST
New This reminds me of an old truism
When programmers design something to be used by people less intelligent than themselves, what they come up with tends to suck. Badly.

When they explicitly design it for smart people there is at least a chance of creating something decent.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I have a question.

How is pointing and clicking on items in the about:config list to change values somehow different from pointing and clicking on items in GConf-editor to change values?

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New I have a question, too
Are you guys willfully missing this point over and over?

NOTHING existed before in Mozilla but to open the prefs file and edit with a text editor.

Firefox added fine configurabilty, and was still simpler to use and became more popular than it's predecessor.

IOW, the Firefox example is really bad for your argument.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Um.

about:config was part of Mozilla before the project which eventually became Firefox was even in public beta. Notice, for example, that about:config is mentioned in the [link|http://www.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla1.0/#files|Mozilla 1.0 release notes], and that release took place in June 2002. The first experimental Phoenix release wasn't until September of that year.

\r\n\r\n

Now. You were saying?

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
Expand Edited by ubernostrum March 28, 2005, 08:54:58 PM EST
New heheh. OK - never used it until firefox.
I never knew it was there; I always thought fiddling with prefs was a pita.

Doesn't negate my main point, though.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New But it does.

Firefox stripped out a lot of options (there's nowhere near as many as in the full suite) and took a lot more which were in the Mozilla preferences dialog and moved them into about:config. GNOME stripped out a lot of options and took a lot more which used to be in preferences dialogs and moved them into GConf. What's the difference?

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New What configuration options did they strip out?
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Who are you talking about?

If Firefox, just type about:config in Mozilla and about:config in Firefox, and compare.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New You.
*sigh*

This whole thing is about configuration in Gnome. Not the apps included with Gnome. Not paying attention?

You replied with:
"Firefox stripped out a lot of options (there's nowhere near as many as in the full suite)"

I asked what configuration options they stripped out. Not what features like a mail client, or html editing, or chat. That an application is available not as an integrated suite, but now as separately downloadable components and apps, is nowhere near the point.

So tell me - what configuration options (you can ignore about:config, since I didn't know it was there in Mozilla; this should make it easier for you) did Firefox strip out?

When you answer that I have some more questions.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
Expand Edited by imric March 29, 2005, 07:33:41 AM EST
New I know some of the cookie settings went away.

Because in the full suite and in other Gecko-based browsers like Galeon you can do some nifty cookie stuff that you can't in Firefox. Ditto a lot of the tabbed browsing preferences (hence TBE). And, while I don't have an exhaustive list handy, I suspect a lot of other things went as well.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New Data point
I work with some reasonably savvy people, and the first we hear of about:config was when news of how to up the number of active http connections made the rounds 6-8 weeks ago.

What we all did know about is the Tools > Options... dialog, which provides simple access to a reasonable subset of configuration options (and looks enough like what people are used to from IE that it doesn't scare newcomers that way about:config does).

Splitting things up in that way--hard stuff obscured, and common stuff within access with a friendly wrapper around it--seems quite sensible.

New !
You would have heard about it a looong time ago if you hung around here more...

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New To play off an old joke...

If KDE developers built cars:

\r\n\r\n

Twelve large trucks pull up to your house, full of parts, and dump them on your lawn. One of the drivers hands you a sheet of paper indicating that KDE produces the finest, sleekest, prettiest car known to man, and that part of their design philosophy is maximum configurability. They further explain that, as they don't feel it's morally acceptable to impose design decisions on you, they'll let you choose what sort of car you want KDE to be. To reduce confusion, it comes with a helpful Startup Wizard to walk you through the initial setup:

\r\n\r\n
    \r\n
  1. To make your car look and feel like a BMW, assemble the following parts: AZ3-4522, BF25-C (you will need fifteen of these), QR42 (you will need six of these)...
  2. \r\n
  3. To make your car look and feel like a Ferrari...
  4. \r\n
\r\n\r\n

The wizard concludes with this:

\r\n\r\n

We apologize if this seems overly complex, but removing even one option from the possibilities KDE offers would obviously cripple the entire system and leave you with a subpar vehicle. We hope you understand.

\r\n
\r\n\r\n

Oh, and regarding this:

\r\n\r\n

And Gnome is such a win that they just lost a whole distro. Real 'demand'. I think we'll see more before this is done.

\r\n\r\n

Nice FUD there, Ace! While you were busy not reading Slackware's release notes, your grandma was trying to figure out whether she sets her home page though "Settings", "Options", "Preferences" or "Configuration". It's a win!

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New point on one of your points
"[0] Users waste time fiddling with the contrast on their 3d widgets and setting their mouse pointers to be cute dinosaurs."
youwalk amongst the users that dont know software, desktops and do the actual work of the company spend about one 3rd of their day fiddling with their desktops. How many times in a windows shop have you tried to help a worker and couldnt figure out what the mouse pointer was, which button they used to do anything and wtf they did with the scroll bars etc. They spend days on that crap. Having made that point, back to your regularly scheduled distrobitch :-)
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
     KDE Usability testing - (ubernostrum) - (26)
         Interesting, but... - (Another Scott) - (1)
             Er. WTF /is/ that thing? -NT - (pwhysall)
         The most common complaint - (imric) - (23)
             From their recommendations: - (ubernostrum) - (22)
                 Horsecrap. - (imric) - (21)
                     Shouting doesn't make you right. - (pwhysall) - (20)
                         Yes, but I would still like to be able to... - (folkert) - (2)
                             Wotsthediff... - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                 No... there are - (folkert)
                         Exsqueeze me? Yeah, I am right. - (imric) - (15)
                             Re: Exsqueeze me? Yeah, I am right. - (pwhysall) - (13)
                                 I am right. - (imric) - (12)
                                     This reminds me of an old truism - (ben_tilly)
                                     I have a question. - (ubernostrum) - (10)
                                         I have a question, too - (imric) - (9)
                                             Um. - (ubernostrum) - (8)
                                                 heheh. OK - never used it until firefox. - (imric) - (5)
                                                     But it does. - (ubernostrum) - (4)
                                                         What configuration options did they strip out? -NT - (imric) - (3)
                                                             Who are you talking about? - (ubernostrum) - (2)
                                                                 You. - (imric) - (1)
                                                                     I know some of the cookie settings went away. - (ubernostrum)
                                                 Data point - (dws) - (1)
                                                     ! - (ben_tilly)
                             To play off an old joke... - (ubernostrum)
                         point on one of your points - (boxley)

Hey, it was good enough for Terry Pratchett.
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