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New Try.. Corp Greed + ovine 'consumerism' as feeds it (?)
New I can believe that
Corp Greed is running rampant. Many are just being led by the rich and powerfull. People don't want to think for themselves, which is why AOL, Microsoft, McDonald's and the rest of them stay in business. Give them a product that takes very little thinking, and they will buy it again and again. As you said, bovine mentality. This is the average person, people here are above average.

Picking up the pieces of my broken life.
New Try Again?
What has caused our decline?

1. In a recent nightline, Robert Krolwich was explaining that the economy is declining because, for several years, consumers spent more than they made. Our net spending was 101-102% of our income. I think it was since 1997 or 1998. We were spending 98% of our income after the last "mini-recession" in 1991-1992. Basically, the condition of consumers spending more than 100% of their income cannot continue for more than 3-4 years. In that time, the debt builds up collectively, and then it simply becomes time to pay the piper. No president or congress is usually to blame.

2. Technology was way overhyped in the late 1990's. Technology now represents about 30% of our GDP in the U.S., based on the valuations of technology companies in the Dow, Amex, and Nasdaq. This was a number I had heard on a stock show like McNeil/Lehrer in 2000. The Y2K scare and Internet hype (dot.com to dot.gone), built up the U.S. economy from about 1998-2000. With the expectation that most of the country would be on high speed broad band cable internet or DSL by now, telecom companies built switches and infrastructure equipment like crazy. Now, those same companies have laid off over 50% of their staff, as sales did not match the volume of what was being manufactured.

3. Farming/Manufacturing has been on a steady slide for more than a decade. Farmers are going out of business left and right, as the U.S. government will not defend the export of U.S. commodities to other countries (other countries protect their farmers by passing tariffs on "imported" U.S. commodities). Our trade negotiating capabilities are lousy. We have run a trade deficit for decades. We let countries like China abuse/mistreat their own citizens and then sell us toys and light manufactured goods for next to nothing. All the while, the poor Chinese work for pennies a day. NAFTA put the nails in the manufacturing coffin in the U.S. I read somewhere that you can't even build a single personal computer today with all "American made" parts. Same is true with cars. We have given our manufacturing prowess away to the rest of the world, where labor is cheaper and govt regulations aren't enforced.

4. We have turned the stock market into freakin' Las Vegas. My father raised me in the 1970's that your purchase of stock represented an ownership interest in a company, with voting rights, and all. You bought IBM, GE, Honeywell, AT&T, etc. with the intent of holding the stock for decades before you sold it. You bought stock in the company you worked for, the company didn't "give you" the stock. (Of course, these were the same companies you employed you for life, too.) But, in the early 1980's (when I started college), something changed. It became like Wall St. the movie. "Greed is good." CBOC became huge. Traders were buying personal computers and Lotus 1-2-3 like crazy to figure out the "patterns" of the stock market. Many traders started publishing newsletters. Then came the 401K, which launched most of the rest of working America into the stock market. It became like the 1920's again, wild speculation, buy and sell stocks in minutes. First came discount brokers, then Internet day trading. Now, you don't even buy stock, you buy a "position" (short, long, covered calls, puts). You're betting whether the price will go up and down. What happened to owning a piece of America (no matter how small)?

The Dow has run from 2300 in 1987 (post crash) to over 10,000 today. The Nasdaq has had a similar run. Based on a historical increase that would cause stocks to double every 8-10 years, shouldn't the Dow be somewhere between 7500 and 8500? Another Nightline a few months back basically said that even with the recent decline in the Nasdaq, it was still high by 40 year historical standards, and it could be flat another 9 years, and still on a 20 year basis earn the same as it did in the prior 20 years. In other words, if we even earn a measly 3-4 percent for the next 5-8 years, we're still outperforming the 1960's and 1970's.

5. Big companies prevent competition and build monopolies through extensive government regulation. In my own industry, the government has passed HIPAA with the intent of "saving money" by forcing all doctors, hospitals, pharmacies, etc. to file "standard" electronic claims. And while we're doing that, we have ensure that the privacy of each and every patient is perfectly protected. These new regulations will cause our healthcare system to collapse, if they aren't revisited. Even "for profit" hospitals are dying right now, under the weight of existing regulation. Once HIPAA is passed, you will see doctors give up practice, hospitals close, and grocery stores shut down their pharmacies. Bottom line: Most companies can't afford to implement HIPAA. Those that have deep enough pockets will run off enough competition to make healthcare, very, very expensive. 100,000's of square feet of office buildings have stood empty for decades under the asbestos scare, and the fear of paying to pay to clean them up. Now the "fear" is about black mold. Even more regulations, until very few companies can even stay in business.

Bottom line, I think a combination of the transformation of our country from one of "workers" to one of "gamblers" is occuring, and causing a major decline in our standard of living, both at the individual level, and at the corporate level. Executives are consistently trying to win the "bonus/stock option" lottery by attempting bold (and foolish) moves to cut costs, move manufacturing to foriegn countries, and continue to market heavily to consumers, often luring them with better "financing", instead of better products and customer service. At more than one company I worked for, 1-2 million deals were looked upon with derision, and VP's were out promising 40-50 million dollar deals to shareholders. Even the VPs were trying to "win the big deal" lottery.

What is happening now? People are thrown out of work. The leadership of most companies are scared. Consumers are pulling back. The "good times" are gone. We're done with the economic expansion. What is the future? Will we have an economy like Japan with a decade of nearly zero GDP growth? Will we quickly get to the bottom and then start to turn around? We we repeat the 1970's when in 1976, the interest rate was incredibly low, and by 1979, the interest rate was 20%?

Only God knows.

But, I can tell you this. We've got to turn around our thinking, from marketing and hype, to building and selling good products and services at a good value to the customer. Companies which do that never go out of style. They aren't "sexy" Wall Street sirens, but more like boring everyday companies like JCPenney and WalMart. Companies where employees still work hard for a living, and the "lottery" mentality is discouraged. We've also got to get our government back from the greedy corporate execs, who buy legislation left and right, and even manage to escape penalty when they are clearly exercising monopolistic practices (M$). We've got to get our import/export back in balance, and turn down trade from countries who treat their workers as slaves or criminals. It's time.

And if the Democrats or Republicans won't do it, then hell, vote Libertarian, Reform, Green, or just something else.

Glen Austin

Don't blame the President. His effect on the economy is still 4 years away.
New Right on
The points you give under 3,4 and 5 are pretty much the cause of the declining American nation.

For farming, we need a total overall of policy. Not only are farmers going out of business because they can't sell at a high enough price, but at the same time the government is subsidizing some farmers hugely, keeping the supply far greater then the demand.

One thing the government needs to do is take a huge chunk of the marginal land, buy it up and convert it back into wilderness. Another thing is to take the rules on pesticides, fertilizers and other such and tighten the rules way up. Both of these things would help both the ecology and the economy. Yet another good idea would be legalizing hemp, hemp is a very durable plant, going well in areas that won't grow food crops effectively, and has many manufacturing uses.

Manufacturing policy is more complex, but a lot of it could be covered simply by not giving MFN status to countries that abuse their labor force to produce goods cheaply. Disasters like NAFTA are exactly why there is a growing anti-globalization movement. It's not the anti-UN ranting of the American right wing, but rather an anti-corporate movement that wants to keep companies from destroying the environment and abusing people.

The stock market problem has been recognized for a long time. I've heard of economists that suggested various solutions since the 80's. The best idea I've heard is to impose a tax on transactions that goes down with the length of time the stock is held. This would force people to invest in companies with an eye to the long term growth of the company not's it's next quarters growth. Something similar would have to be imposed on various indirect options to keep them in line with regular stock purchases.

The other thing we need to do with the stock market is somehow dislodge the idea from people heads that the stock market tracks the health of the American economy. There are many situations where the stock market may be going down but Americans in general are better off.

I gotta go, but I'll get back to point 5 later. It deserves it's own long rant anyway.

Jay
New On NAFTA and MFN
I still think I have an easier solution. Actually the judicious use of MFN status might be a way to implement my idea.

We have worker protection laws like OSHA and the like. This is because we don't think people should be treated certain ways. So it isn't ethical to buy prodcuts made in those ways, is it?

So just prohibit the sale in the U.S. of any product that the manufacturer can not verify was manufactured under the same worker safety (and other) guidelines as U.S. manufacturers must follow.
We have to fight the terrorists as if there were no rules and preserve our open society as if there were no terrorists. -- [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/opinion/BIO-FRIEDMAN.html|Thomas Friedman]
New Can I send this out to some of my friends?
Giving you full credit of course.
Don Richards,
Proud recipient of the ABBA.
New It depends on who your friends are...
If they're "nobody", then fine, please send it and quote me.

If they're corporate executives, high-ranking senators and congressmen, etc. then please don't because I don't want to be audited by the IRS and generally harassed out of existence.

Glen Austin
New Hmmm.
Mostly relatives would be on the receiving end. Problem is, they are what I like to call "furious forwarders". My sister has a mailing list several hundred addresses long for the forwards she sends. Maybe it would be best to send it out without giving credit.
Don Richards,
recipient of the ABBA.
New Re: Hmmm.
Send it without giving me credit then.

Use some moniker, like "A really frustrated American."

Glen Austin
New You got it.
I really liked it and want to share it.
Don Richards,
recipient of the ABBA.
New BTW: CBOC is actually CBOE
Chicago Board of Options Exchange

The place where options are traded...

Glen Austin
New I've always wondered......
If the traders at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange are called "Merc Jerks", What do you call the traders at the CBOE? (aside from a**hole coke freaks that is)

:-)
Don Richards,
recipient of the ABBA.
New A couple of items..
A more comprehensive try than I can manage, but nicely free of the 'velocity of money' and the other Econ math abstractions via which a lot of this groundwork was laid, emphasizing only ONE variable to be maximized: Max dollars/second gotten (one could never call it earned).

I'd disagree with your placing Walmart - a place I boycott permanently for a litany of reasons, many documentable - next to the older once, maybe still? respectable JC Penney's. It's 'cheapness' is maybe relative to more honestly-produced goods in other stores here, but the Lion's share goes to the 5% Corp Rulers, not much to employees -- and obscenely little to the exploited permanently 3rd-world places it runs - as surely as if elected despot (it owns the local despots via its power to enforce starvation wages on the despots' subjects - or move to a nearby equivalent).

IMhO - every day that a Sam Walton retains the power to corrupt, which his $ represents: his wilfulness alone creates millions more people in nearby countries who - despise us and every place our actions trump our Sentimentality. Ditto other Billionaires = that is power to corrupt thousands. But I can't think of one as toxic as Walton, offfhand.

Dunno how one might plot an escape from an entire bizness culture predicated upon the root idea: Persistent lying / marketing is OK. And that greed is Good (that is - personal aggrandizement with no thought to there being other people: a 'society' too).

YAN list of areas merely patched together today, needing massive rethinking and new models:

Corporate hegemony - growing; buying all the representatives, making votes irrelevant after Corp-selection of candidates. Ergo, accelerating concentration of the wealth among fewer. Recursive.

More monopolies rather than fewer. Mergers to that end.

Information: Corp-ownership by fewer and fewer, of most media - newspapers down to One in most *Big* cities. Web? - for how long un-locked?

Infrastructure (water supplies, bridges, school buildings, medicine (across all scales) HMO even as a concept: Corporate again! Your money or your life - now literal.

Prisons = 'Drug Wars' = Prohibition deja vu; now being 'privatized' = Corporate again. 3-strikes: computers, not Judges.

Language has indeed become corrupted by the daily barrage, the incessant lies of commerce selling.. selling.. and the consequences appear very like that which Confucious warned about, in his little homily concluding -

IF (language becomes corrupted)... then Justice will go astray. If this happens the people will stand about in helpless confusion. Hence it matters above all else, that language be correct.

How does a culture on a 24/7 treadmill merely to push papers and do imaginary 'projects' - learn how to do actual work, reform its corrupt Politico-Economic scam, return dignity to its working majority -- all At Once! ??

And that would be necessary just to begin our rehabilitation. That's a good word rehabilitation: restoring the entire country (including cities!) as places a sane person would actually want to inhabit! (given an actual choice).

I have no idea how we might begin; or if many will even try. I wish luck to the sane or wannabe-sane folk; death to the forces opposing sanity and thinking only of new means for ripping-off the labor and lives of the many. We know where that trend always peaks.

Hercules' task was merely, cleaning the Augean Stables. He accomplished that by diverting a river! Ours is a much larger variety of stables to be cleaned and rebuilt. Have we left - enough people with the guts, (also historical knowledge) the will and tenacity - even to begin?



Ashton
New Transactions vs. Relationships
Our collective thinking has to shift from valuing "things" to valuing "people".

Relationships instead of transactions. I'll give some examples. I go into Home Depot and it's very hard to find help. Last time I was there, I was looking for a gas starter pipe for my fireplace, and when I finally found someone, they walked me to the "fireplace section", where I had already been for 30 minutes, looking for my item. When I told them that what I was looking for wasn't there, they wanted to call someone else, who I waiting for about 4 minutes, then decided I was done looking.

Contrast that with our local ACE hardware store in Greenville. I go in a few weeks ago to buy some bolts that we'll be using to secure a server rack to the floor, and the guy not only advises me on the right bolts, but makes sure I have the right anchors for the concrete, too. All told, I spend less than $5 on the transaction, but I got to know the person. I've been back several times, and the same person always is there to help me. The last 2-3 times were really easy, because he already knew who I was, and what I was trying to do.

Everything in this country has become about "transactions". Buying, selling, and gambling. Maximizing the return on investment far outweighs the value of people. Bigger stores, more dollar volumes, more inventory.

At the risk of getting this posting moved to the religious forum, I think the core problem is that we don't care about people anymore, just stuff, and it shows in our country. Jesus taught us to "love our neighbors as ourselves", and then told the story of the Good Samaritan when someone asked who a "neighbor" is.

So, as an add-on to my rant, we really need to start caring about each other, and not so much about the next dollar.
Glen Austin
New Amen to that.
(Got no quarrel with Jesus's material - just.. some of his followers can prove to be rather wearing)

Seconded overall. So long as mindless acquisition of things, not merely to some sense of 'adequacy' but endlessly - causes the major institutions to treat employees as expendable 'production machinery' / overhead, we'll continue to decline.

People aren't stupid, though many are inarticulate and many haven't quite put finger on the [hole] in life we have created by our insatiable collecting. The 24/7 artificial activity certainly creates the noise which interferes with joining forces around this message and - beginning to dismantle the robot machine.

I hope we make it.. the $ now permeates every facet of life - expect a meter in pews next. We have to somehow develop enough discrimination to realize, pretty soon - that just because we Can make something, maybe we shouldn't. And.. some things simply should not have price tags.

(Maybe the Big-irony is - actual human experience is 'permanent' and also can't be er repossessed. It is intangible and utterly unmeasurable. All the 'measurable', countable stuff: is the illusion ;-)

Nobody said it was EZ..



Ashton
     New It Opportunities? - (gdaustin) - (30)
         Hope you're wrong - (wharris2) - (29)
             25%+ Unemployment - (gdaustin) - (28)
                 re: Deep Recessions - (tablizer) - (6)
                     Already are Printing Money - (gdaustin) - (5)
                         One issue with that theory - (kmself) - (4)
                             A question - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                 No clue? Neither do economists - (tablizer)
                                 Part of an answer - (kmself) - (1)
                                     Muchas Grazie - (pwhysall)
                 We got screwed - (orion) - (20)
                     What did this have to do with Clinton OR Bush? -NT - (admin) - (19)
                         Its the economy - (orion) - (18)
                             Re: Its the economy - (admin) - (17)
                                 Who is fiscually responsible then? - (orion) - (16)
                                     Sorry having a bad day - (orion) - (15)
                                         Try.. Corp Greed + ovine 'consumerism' as feeds it (?) -NT - (Ashton) - (14)
                                             I can believe that - (orion)
                                             Try Again? - (gdaustin) - (12)
                                                 Right on - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                                     On NAFTA and MFN - (drewk)
                                                 Can I send this out to some of my friends? - (Silverlock) - (6)
                                                     It depends on who your friends are... - (gdaustin) - (5)
                                                         Hmmm. - (Silverlock) - (4)
                                                             Re: Hmmm. - (gdaustin) - (3)
                                                                 You got it. - (Silverlock) - (2)
                                                                     BTW: CBOC is actually CBOE - (gdaustin) - (1)
                                                                         I've always wondered...... - (Silverlock)
                                                 A couple of items.. - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                     Transactions vs. Relationships - (gdaustin) - (1)
                                                         Amen to that. - (Ashton)

Grrrr, watch me beat my chest.
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