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New Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates
The problem with the Taliban is that they're exploiting strengths (theirs, and ours against us), but to no clear victory. They can prod and poke at the United States and other nations throughout the world. They cannot topple them. And, at best, they remain rulers of a rubble heap.

Incidentally, The Art of War is online, as usual, [link|http://www.google.com/search?q=%22the+art+of+war%22+%22sun+tzu%22&btnG=Google+Search|Google rocks], [link|http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html|this site] looks good.

Earlier in "Estimates", Sun Zu writes:
War is a matter of vital importance to the State; the province of life or death; the road to survival or ruin. It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied.

Therefore, appraise it in terms of the five fundamental factors and make comparisons of the seven elements later named. So you may assess its essentials.

The first of these factors is moral influence; the second, weather; the third, terrain; the fourth, command; and the fifth, doctrine.

By moral influence, I mean that which causes the people to be in harmony with their leaders, so that they will accompany them in life and unto death without fear of mortal peril.
I do not see the Taliban having, or securing by its actions, moral influence.

Further:
Thus, while we have heard of blundering swiftness in war, we have not yet seen a clever operation that was prolonged.

For there has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited.

[...]

Those adept in waging war do not require a second levy of conscripts nor more than one provisioning.
Analyses I'm seeing suggest the Taliban's success requires provisioning or supply routes to remain open, likely through Pakistan. It's thought they don't have the means to sustain a conflict internally. Their own lawlessness is a strength to themselves -- foreign supporters would be far more susceptible to US influence. One story suggests nuclear weapons (more likely radiation weapons rather than nuclear explosives).

My sense is, given past actions, this would be a death sentence for the Taliban -- the US has the ability to lay waste to the entire country if needs be. If sufficiently provoked, and if it is clear that this is the only means of remove the scourge, we will do so. I emphasize this is a contingency, and not a primary strategy.

Regarding offensive strategies:
Generally in war the best policy is to take a state intact; to ruin it is inferior to this.
Li Chuan: Do not put a premium on killing

To capture the enemy's army is better than to destroy it; to take intact a battalion, a company, or a five-man squad is better than to destroy them.

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

Thus, what is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy;
Tu Mu:...He who excels at resolving difficulties does so before they areise. He who excels in conquering his enemies triumphs before threats materialze.
Li Ch'uan:Attack plans at their inception...
Next best is to disrupt his alliances

Net best is to attack his army

The worst policy is to attack cities. Attack cities only when there is no alternative.

[...]

Your aim is to take All-under-Heaven intact....

Consequently, the art of using troops is this: When ten to the enemy's one, surround him;

When five times his strength, attack him.

[Various descending force scenarios.]

...And if in all resepects unequal, be capable of eluding him, for a small force is but booty for one more powerful.

The advice about fighting smart is well taken. Prophylactic actions could likely have avoided the current scenario, though whether this could have been done without raising hackles in the mideast is doubtful. Having absorbed the first hit, the US doesn't need to seek justification for its response. We've done a pretty good job of disrupting any Taliban / Al Qaeda alliances -- there are no overt supporters of any significance for the Taliban. We're doing fairly good work on their armed forces.

Some of the assumptions of Sun Tzu's time have changed -- it's possible for both us and the enemy to slip past lines and inflict damages. However the logistics of significant troop movements has not changed -- neither we nor they can move large forces without respect for the other's position and presence.

Regards the last point: the Taliban and Al Qaeda are by any measure a force inferior to the US. In the face of direct onslaught, they can do nothing but retreat. Retreating into the shelter of their own people loses the first factor of success: moral influence. They are drawing destruction on their own people, intentionally.

Unlike any military action since World War II, this need not be a limited action. The US was constrained by both Cold War and homeland realities in its involvement in Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Somalia, and Bosnia. Credible evidence to me indicates there's little if any limit to actions ObL will consider. Stop at all costs becomes a tenable position. And, in this light, the Taliban and Al Qaeda do not have any militarially supportable option but surrender or elimination. The only mistake the US can make is in treating this as anything but total war. Humanitarian activities are best left outside the kill zone, and all efforts made to move noncombatents to same.

The only quarrel I have with your comments on minimizing civilian casualties is that you're wagging the dog. Rather than hobbling the military, move the innocents out of the way.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates

My point was that Taliban moving troops into civillian areas is a survival 'tactic' (of course its deplorable - that is a 'moral' judgement) as a tactic, if it works then it is a sound survival tactic if it means their troops survive. Remember that from a tactical perspective the US can easly wipe out their forces if they are in the open. Remember to that they don't have a conventional standing army - just citizens with guns, some of whom are full time fighters vs part-time. Most of the Arabs ran away within days of the Sept 11th attack (there are numerous reports on that). Most volunteerrs ariving are Pashtuns from Pakistan.

I am convinced that there is a substantial confusion between the morallity of actions & the tactical nature of the same actions. If we are talking morality we need to be clear thats what we are talking. I am sure we are in total agreement on the moral issue.

"I do not see the Taliban having, or securing by its actions, moral influence." - I understand your point but surely we would need to ask Afghans this question, not us ??? - we can't be expected to see anything but immorality in their very existance so surely we are biased. Even the quote you use says ... "By moral influence, I mean that which causes the people to be in harmony with their leaders, so that they will accompany them in life and unto death without fear of mortal peril." - now if the Afghan citizens agree with you, then what you say is correct.

Cheers

Doug


New Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates
Remember to that they don't have a conventional standing army - just citizens with guns, some of whom are full time fighters vs part-time. Most of the Arabs ran away within days of the Sept 11th attack (there are numerous reports on that). Most volunteerrs ariving are Pashtuns from Pakistan.

Last I heard, they had 40-60k men opposing the Northern Alliance.

That's not a bunch of guys on a weekend jaunt. They've got far more than just AKs. That's T-72s, heavy artillery, etc. That's a *lot* of logistical support required.

Al' Queda's has been widely reported as being the tough, dedicated, well-trained core of the Taliban troops, and that was a large part of OBL's power base. Train them well, let them fight, get experience, etc.

My point was that Taliban moving troops into civillian areas is a survival 'tactic' (of course its deplorable - that is a 'moral' judgement) as a tactic, if it works then it is a sound survival tactic if it means their troops survive.

If - if they don't care about the civilians.

Which I don't think that they do. So for your case to make sense, then they're not fighting for/defending the civilians. (what you're arguing they are/do, when they're proving otherwise)

Addison
New Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates
You're still debating this idiot? :=)

(idiot = gentle term.)
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New Ah.. the unbiased-idiot report: thanks for clarifying
just Everything. Let me guess - you too only ever speak *facts*, so any counter to *those* ---> idiocy. (And naturally too - these are All of the 'facts' that are relevant. Because they are your-facts) Right?

I think I understand ar least a pair of you only-the-Facts, Maam presenters a bit better, now. (Hey I thought that Facts like that were found only in the Religion arena of Certainty; now you say there are Political-Facts too??

How do You spel s a n c t i m o n y ??


A.


0.pin.ion n

"1. a belief not based on absolute certainty or positive knowledge but on what seems true,valid, or probable to one's own mind; what one thinks; judgment."

Emphasis added, for the humility-impaired and the ever-Certain amongst us. Next we can look up simplistic.

Nahhhh. Never mind.
New Yes of course.
I am Mr. Factoid, you didn't know that? Every thing I speak is as if it were from the lips of Mohammed or God, and we know they are both truth incarnate.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
     Taliban strength surprises Pentagon - (bluke) - (33)
         I dislike unnamed sources - (wharris2) - (10)
             Re: I am wary of the poisoning threat - (dmarker2)
             Kosovo conflict was won by precision bombing... - (Arkadiy)
             Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more - (dmarker2) - (7)
                 Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more - (addison) - (4)
                     Surprises are a given - (Ric Locke)
                     Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more - (dmarker2) - (2)
                         Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more - (addison) - (1)
                             Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more - (dmarker2)
                 News sources my ascii - (wharris2) - (1)
                     Re: News sources my ascii - (dmarker2)
         Sun Tzu: Estimates - (kmself) - (21)
             Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates - (dmarker2) - (20)
                 Survival of who? - (addison) - (13)
                     Re: Survival of who? - (dmarker2) - (12)
                         Re: Survival of who? - (addison) - (11)
                             Re: Survival of who? - (dmarker2) - (6)
                                 In the same vein, - (addison) - (5)
                                     Re: In the same vein, - (dmarker2) - (4)
                                         Re: In the same vein, - (addison) - (3)
                                             Re: In the same vein, - (dmarker2) - (2)
                                                 Re: In the same vein, - (addison) - (1)
                                                     Heh.. last post - (Ashton)
                             hate to ruin a perfectly degenerating thread - (boxley) - (3)
                                 Re: hate to ruin a perfectly degenerating thread - (dmarker2) - (2)
                                     Distinction: 055 brigade vs Afghan soldiers - (brettj) - (1)
                                         links? proves? -NT - (boxley)
                 Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates - (kmself) - (5)
                     Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates - (dmarker2) - (4)
                         Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates - (addison) - (3)
                             Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates - (wharris2) - (2)
                                 Ah.. the unbiased-idiot report: thanks for clarifying - (Ashton) - (1)
                                     Yes of course. - (wharris2)

Are you willing and prepared to fully understand the state of your dinner's readiness? I can only make you the dinner... you must taste it.
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