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New Taliban strength surprises Pentagon
[link|http://www.msnbc.com/news/627086.asp|Taliban strength surprises Pentagon]
"Afghanistan\ufffds ruling Taliban militia is turning out to be a tougher opponent than the Pentagon expected, a senior U.S. defense official said Wednesday, but Washington is \ufffdprepared to take as long as required to take the Taliban down.\ufffd The Taliban\ufffds next ploy could be to poison food aid intended for the civilian population and blame the deaths on the United States, he said."

What was the Pentagon thinking? Didn't they learn anything from the Soviet Unions war with Afghanistan?
New I dislike unnamed sources
"A senior US official" could be almost anyone willing to unload to a reporter.

Bush said at the beginning that it was going to be a long campaign.

And nobody has yet won a war by precision bombing. This so-called senior official doesn't understand that?

We've crippled a lot of the Taliban infrastructure - such as was left after the Soviets and ten years of civil war. I suppose continued bombing makes us feel better about how we're doing something, but unless we're very lucky we aren't likely to take out many of the Taliban leaders or binLaden.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New Re: I am wary of the poisoning threat


That smacks of classic propaganda & villification.

Hmmm, I would even take bets that in 6 months it will be exposed as propaganda.\\

Cheers

Doug
New Kosovo conflict was won by precision bombing...
I do realize that Afganistan is no Serbia.
New Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more

Was on prime time news & in yesterday's papers. US stated it point blank. I take these statements incl today's that OBL may not be found, as leading to a settlement that satisfies all sides.

See my new post above.

Cheers

Doug Marker
New Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more
as leading to a settlement that satisfies all sides.

Given what's happened, that's not the choice of words I'd pick.

Additionally, I don't know if that's a message, or the US Armed Forces being actively surprised again. Their track record's spotty on that.

Addison
New Surprises are a given
When there's a war on, the premium in the armed forces is people who can win battles and/or wars.

Between wars, the military becomes just another bureaucracy: advancement comes to those who do politics and appearances best. White rocks, spiffy uniforms (berets anyone?) and sucking up to congresscritters yield promotion. After some time, all the important positions are held by politicians, not soldiers. The proablem is not alleviated by our practice, since Truman, of using the military as a social experimentation lab. The success -- debatable, according to some of my sources -- of racial integration has led to calls for like integration of gays and women.

Then comes the war, and the military forces are basically congresscritters in nifty suits. We -- the U.S. -- have pretty much a policy of not attacking; this means that whoever we're fighting will have reorganized their military to be more effective prior to the war, so our guys are hopelessly outclassed. Bullets, bombs, claymore mines, etc., are notoriously immune to political infighting. As a result, we start out 'way behind the curve.

"We always sacrifice a few of our comrades to the Liberals," said Gen. Muraschenko (science fiction fans are encouraged to find the original of that).

As the war progresses, the soldiers win and the politicians lose, and the criteria for promotion change -- eventually we start getting Pattons, and the tide turns. The trick is to hold on until the politicians get worked out of the system. It worked in WWII; it may not be possible any more, since it takes time, and by the time the deadwood starts getting piled, the "news cycle" has turned and the whole thing isn't newsworthy. This may mean we can no longer win wars.
Regards,
Ric
New Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more

"Given what's happened, that's not the choice of words I'd pick."

From my knowledge of military & press briefings & politics, Rumsfield would not be supporting such admissions in public press releases unless they serve a purpose. The logic I am applying here is that when progress is being made we can make what appear to be concessions & this looks like one. Being antagonistic to Afghan (any factions) wouldn't achieve the same progress & the fact that the Afghan council in Peshwar issued their condemnation of the Sept 11 attacks and at same time US says what tough warriors the Taliban are, just looks exactly like an agreed set of compromise statements. That this same council bluntly told OBL to buggar off is all just very coincidental.

I am sure a settlemnent is in the air.

Cheers

Doug



New Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more
From my knowledge of military & press briefings & politics, Rumsfield would not be supporting such admissions in public press releases unless they serve a purpose.

You missed the point.

You said that "satisfies everybody". With a death toll pushing 7000 or so, what with the US bombings, and etc - I don't think *anybody* should be "satisfied" about any solution.

It might be acceptable, but I'd not say "satisfactory".

Addison
New Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more

Thank god I missed the point - points can be dangerous.

Cheers

Doug
New News sources my ascii
Rumsfield has already come out saying he was misquoted. Has not said "we may never get binLaden" (according to him) but said "It's going to be hard."

If that's what you're referring to, that is.

The US papers and media have gotten so bad that I don't know I believe anything or anyone they quote unless I actually hear the person. In context. It's not just with this so-called war on terrorism, it's with damn near anything, from baseball to global warming.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New Re: News sources my ascii

You are right of course - these are tough times for getting clear pitures of what is going on. The piture varies dramatically depending on where you are & who paits the picture (your news sources). I think US is applying a lot more restrictions on 'news' that I have seen in a long time.

Also I read the 'quote' from Rumsfeldt from UK & US sources so there is always the possibility that there is a bit of a twist being added by someone.

Cheers

Doug
New Sun Tzu: Estimates
Read your Art of War:
All warfare is based on deception.

Therefore, when capable, feign incapacity; when active, inactivity.

When near, make it appear that you are far away; when far away, that you are near.
[...]

Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.

[The Art of War includes substantial commentaries on the writings of Sun Tzu, I've elided them above. KMSelf]
Tu Mu:: Twoar the end of the Ch'in dynasty, Mo Tun of the Hsiung Nu first established his power. The Easter Hu were strong and sent ambassadors to parley. They said: 'We wish to obtian "T'ou Ma's thousand-li [li: approx. 1/3 mile -- thus, a horse that could travel 300 miles without grass or water] horse'. Mo Tun consulted his advisers who all exclaimed: 'The thousand-li horse! The most precious thing in this country! Do not give them that!' Mo Tun replied: 'Why begurdge a horse to a neighbour?' So he sent the horse.

[The story continues with demands made, and met, for a princess. The next request was for land. Mo Tun drew the line: 'Land is the foundation of the State. How could one give it away?'. Advisor suggesting same were sacked. To the neck -- which was sufficient.]

Mo Tun then sprang on his horse, ordered that all who remained behind were to be beheade, and made a surpise attack on the Eastern Hu. The easter Hu were contemptuous of him an had made no proparations. When he attacked he annihilated them. Mo Tun then turned westward and attacked the Yueh Ti [...and several other kingdoms].

Ch'en Hao: Give the enemy young boys and women to ifatuate him and jades and silks to excite his ambitions.


The Western tradition here is a variant of "flattery will get you anything".
Citations taken from Samuel B. Griffith's translation of The Art of War, Oxford Paperbacks, 1963.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates

Glad you introduced this book here - a lot of folk truly need to read it.

It has amused me when some folk comment (roughly)

"But the Taliban have moved their troops among civillians - what kind of evil bastard does that"

But the opposite action of the above is just plain idiocy ...
"Ohh the Taliban have concentrated their precious troops out in the open" What heroic fighters they are!.

So when people criticize what is a sound military survival tactic in the face of massive enemy airpower it seems that they don't understand what survival is.

Cheers

Doug

New Survival of who?
So when people criticize what is a sound military survival tactic in the face of massive enemy airpower it seems that they don't understand what survival is.

Are you trying to ensure survival of the *military*? Sure, its sound.

The problem with this, and a "usual war" is that military *exists to protect* (or extend the sphere of influence of) civilians. This isn't a usual war.

The Taliban has few ties to the civilians they're moving in to use as shields - and I don't want to say they lack morality, but their morality isn't one where (the afghan) civilians are protected.

Normally, military units will sacrifice themselves to protect the civilians - that being their focus. Sometimes its considered more important to maintain military integrity, but in this case, its not really an 'either/or".

Addison
New Re: Survival of who?
"The Taliban has few ties to the civilians they're moving in to use as shields"

Who do you believe the Taliban soldiers are ???
Are you saying or implying that the bulk of or all Taliban are imports ???
If not, that what does the quoted line mean ???

****************************************

"Normally, military units will sacrifice themselves to protect the civilians - that being their focus.
Sometimes its considered more important to maintain military integrity, but in this case, its not really an
'either/or"

I don't really follow your point here ? - what 'military units' do the Taliban have other than Afghan citizens carrying guns and a few o'seas volunteers ?

Are you refering to conventional countries that have standing armies ? (like Iraq ?).



Cheers

Doug
(fearful this is going to turn into another endless thread of miscommunication due to lack of clarity in the statements and thoughts)
New Re: Survival of who?
(fearful this is going to turn into another endless thread of miscommunication due to lack of clarity in the statements and thoughts)

Doug:
Then stop miscommunicating. :)

Best I can see, is you're coming into this with a very emotional viewpoint, and you are reacting negatively to factual rebuttals. My interpretation, anyway.

"The Taliban has few ties to the civilians they're moving in to use as shields"

Who do you believe the Taliban soldiers are ???


Combination. OBL/Al' Queda is certainly *not* Afghan, in any form. Its been very widely reported that most members of the Taliban are *not* Afghan, or were raised in Pakistani refugee camps (thus having little tie to the people).

Add to that the tribal differences - remember, *you* were the one decrying the overuse of "them" to group together many people who shared a geographic nearness, and even the native Afghan members of the Taliban I don't think can be consider to be "Afghan". (The definition of "Afghan" is one fraught with peril).

No, the Taliban is not there to defend the average Afghan civilian. (Witness the well-reported murders that the Taliban has committed in village after village).

Who do *you* believe that they are?

"Normally, military units will sacrifice themselves to protect the civilians - that being their focus. Sometimes its considered more important to maintain military integrity, but in this case, its not really an 'either/or"

I don't really follow your point here ? - what 'military units' do the Taliban have other than Afghan citizens carrying guns and a few o'seas volunteers ?


The Taliban - which is largely imported, has Scud missiles, tanks, aircraft (or did), helicopters equipped with antitank weaponry, rocket launchers, heavy artillery, radar and IR antiaircraft missiles, anti-aircraft artillery. The Rooskies left a *lot* of stuff behind with the Afghan government, what wasn't used up is mostly under Afghan control. Other has been purchased (What do you think OBL was spending his millions on?).

If it were just people with AK-47s, as you seem to misunderstand, then there wouldn't be an issue.

But since you didn't understand my point:

Sometimes, its more important to save a military unit, even infantry, rather than protect civilians, was what I was saying. There are cases where civilians were left to the mercy of advancing armies, because of the retreat of the military.

The opposite has certainly occured - one very outmanned and outgunned German group held off the Soviets for almost two weeks, until they ran out of ammo in late 1945. They were holding open access to a bridge - and somehow, the division of Germany had made rumor - and correctly, that area was to be administered by the US, and they sacrificed themselves and somewhere in the vincinity of 2 million Germans went from the east side to the west side.

That won't happen in this case. The Taliban as a whole has no consideration for the people of Afghanistan.

Addison
New Re: Survival of who?

Come back when you can aske questions that aren't laced with insults.

Cheers

Doug
New In the same vein,
Come back when you can manage to discuss world events with some knowledge of the facts about said world events.

Eh,
Addison
New Re: In the same vein,

Yet another pathetic insult.

If we could deal with facts and get away from personal finger pointing and snide remarks I truly believe we could make some progress.

"you can manage to discuss world events with some knowledge of the facts "

That is a what is becoming a classic Addison insult. "If you can't play the ball play the man".

Cheers

Doug Marker
New Re: In the same vein,
Yet another pathetic insult.

Actually, it was a statement of fact. If you consider it insulting, I'd suggest re-reading what I wrote. And what you wrote in reply.

If we could deal with facts and get away from personal finger pointing and snide remarks I truly believe we could make some progress.

I'd *like* that Doug, and I'm *waiting* for that.

I go into great detail as to *why* I said what I said.

I consider it to be a pathetic insult what you're saying - you're not dealing in facts. Implying that you are, and I'm not is *really* pathetic. Eh. If you want to do that, fine.

But no, you don't get to go claim some sort of moral superiority because you can't stay on topic, or deal with the facts of the situation.

That is a what is becoming a classic Addison insult. "If you can't play the ball play the man".

Oooh. I'm hurt. Lets see... in every case I asked you questions, presented facts that rebutted what you were saying, and you ignored them.

But somehow, *I'm* insulting you, rather than your position.

Eh, whatever, Doug.

Its not worth me going through and detailing all of those that you've missed - in order to "play the man" here.

But the threads in this forum I don't believe support you. Facts, my side (it helps in the counting that you haven't presented *any*)...

What was that about "pathetic insults?"

Addison
New Re: In the same vein,
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=15367|prior request]

I wondered why you hadn't responded to the above post made much earlier. Your immediate post above this is repetitive & classic.

I do not consider you in a negative way (except in seeking peace here) I actually consider you to have a good intellect and would not
have tried to find a new starting point had I not though it worthwhile. In my more recent posts I attemted to clearly remove any barbs or anything that pointed fingers or laid blame,I was trying to ask you to do the same.

I can only say I don't know what else to say other than I promise not to respond to any of your posts in future and I hope this will give you some peace of mind. In a like manner please don't respond to any of mine - can we at least agree on this ? You can always contact me direct
at dmarker@marker.org if you would prefer to deal with this off-line - I am equally happy to do same if I have your email id. It may make it easier than responding here on a stage.

Thanks in advance

Doug

Doug
New Re: In the same vein,
Your immediate post above this is repetitive & classic..

And in the *same* vein, you ignored the facts, and made a personal attack. Classic?

Which is what you're _accusing_ *me* of doing. Pot, Kettle, Black.

I'm confused, really I am. I had never gotten the impression that you were as divorced from reality as you're appearing in this thread. Maybe I just never saw it. Maybe its just the subject matter. I'm pondering that, and have been for the past couple of days.

Be that as it may, you *have* laid down several unsupported insults. Support them. Attempting an "apology" while you continue to insult makes no sense.

Neither does posting here when you can't actually stand to have someone not agree with you, that's also nonsensical.

The post you said was filled with insults?

The biggest "insult" was a list of answers to your questions, saying your assumptions (the taliban are a poor, misunderstood, small band of ragged guys with only rifles) to be completely incorrect. If that's insulting, I'm not sure what you're doing here.

In a like manner please don't respond to any of mine - can we at least agree on this ?

Why?

No. That's nonsensical. Granted, if you stay nonsensical, then I will write you off as I've had to a few other people, as not worth replying to. I don't think that was your aim, but its certainly what you're doing.

If you can't deal with people disagreeing, with especially me pointing out the facts that don't support your opinions, well, sorry. that's just tough cookies. Calling that a personal attack, and saying there was a failure to exchange ideas.. I don't really understand that. But neither will I let you insinuate that's a failure on my part, or that I only insult. I've spent a lot of time making sure that I wasn't insulting. Sure, its possible I failed, I've considered that several times, and I re-read my posts that you object to, to see if I can see it from "your perspective".

You're posting some completely unsupported opinions. I disagree with them, and I've said quite clearly why.

You're the one who's called *me* bloodthirsty, don't forget.

If you post that the Taliban is a bunch of poor, misunderstood freedom fighters with only the shirts on their back, and some rifles and pistols, I *will* correct you. Why are you posting, if you don't actually want to discuss? Or asking questions? What's the point? When you post that our actions are misguided because of a presumption that does not fit the currently known facts, expect me to reply, and say "uh, no".

would not have tried to find a new starting point had I not though it worthwhile

Did you? Or did you just say you did? Did you actually *change* anything?

I only saw you say that, and keep right on with your assumptions/opinions that are 180 from what is widely "known" out here. Sure, it might be wrong - but not just because you *think* so.

Sorry Doug, I don't intend to insult you, merely for the point of insulting - but I am a stickler for facts, especially in a situation such as this. Sure, there are lots of opinons out there - but if you are thinking sloppy, with misguided opinions, presumptions that don't fit the facts as they exist, how can you expect to have an opinion that makes sense?

Addison
New Heh.. last post
(I can count on your standing on Principle and not replying to such unPrincipled upstarts as moi.)

It takes a rilly Big Man to remain intransigently Righteous, repetitively.. burn any proffered olive branches asif beneath one's dignity to yield a single Certain Fact\ufffd. Especially when everyone else's 'facts' are just their opinion. Must be glorious being one of the unOpinionated amongst the rabble (?)

Thanks for the Rorschak - know thine opponent's vanities, me and Sun Tzu always say.



Ashton
Opinion-free: Certainty is so much more fun!
New hate to ruin a perfectly degenerating thread
Taliban
a movement of islamic thought comprised of young Ahfgan refugees being inculated in Pakistani refugee camps during and after the russian invasion. Pathans mostly a tribal group that straddles the NW Frontier of pakistan and southern afghanistan. Rose to power by confiscation of all weapons from warlords in Afghanistan. OBL sat in the same councils and schooled. OBL is a Taliban in nature and thought, he is not THE Taliban.
Composition of Taliban is home grown with a lot of Arabian visitors. The saudi's are not a majority, the majority is pathans.
my 2 cents
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
New Re: hate to ruin a perfectly degenerating thread

I buy that - also there are reports & am sure they can be dug up, that explain that many of the Arabs cleared out within days of Sept 11.

I believe the evidence shows that the soldiers apart from a couple of OBL special brigades, are mostly Pashtun from both Afghanistan & Pakistan.

I think this is what we both believe n'est pas ?

Cheers

Doug
New Distinction: 055 brigade vs Afghan soldiers
Maybe this is where you and Addison are partially in disagreement.

From what I understand, the 055 brigade is the brutal terrorist style police for ObL and Al-Queda. They keep the soldiers and the citizens in line, or kill them.

The 055 brigade is mostly made up of mostly non-Afghan criminals. They are the equivalent of Hitler's SS. (055=SS)
New links? proves?
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
New Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates
The problem with the Taliban is that they're exploiting strengths (theirs, and ours against us), but to no clear victory. They can prod and poke at the United States and other nations throughout the world. They cannot topple them. And, at best, they remain rulers of a rubble heap.

Incidentally, The Art of War is online, as usual, [link|http://www.google.com/search?q=%22the+art+of+war%22+%22sun+tzu%22&btnG=Google+Search|Google rocks], [link|http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html|this site] looks good.

Earlier in "Estimates", Sun Zu writes:
War is a matter of vital importance to the State; the province of life or death; the road to survival or ruin. It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied.

Therefore, appraise it in terms of the five fundamental factors and make comparisons of the seven elements later named. So you may assess its essentials.

The first of these factors is moral influence; the second, weather; the third, terrain; the fourth, command; and the fifth, doctrine.

By moral influence, I mean that which causes the people to be in harmony with their leaders, so that they will accompany them in life and unto death without fear of mortal peril.
I do not see the Taliban having, or securing by its actions, moral influence.

Further:
Thus, while we have heard of blundering swiftness in war, we have not yet seen a clever operation that was prolonged.

For there has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited.

[...]

Those adept in waging war do not require a second levy of conscripts nor more than one provisioning.
Analyses I'm seeing suggest the Taliban's success requires provisioning or supply routes to remain open, likely through Pakistan. It's thought they don't have the means to sustain a conflict internally. Their own lawlessness is a strength to themselves -- foreign supporters would be far more susceptible to US influence. One story suggests nuclear weapons (more likely radiation weapons rather than nuclear explosives).

My sense is, given past actions, this would be a death sentence for the Taliban -- the US has the ability to lay waste to the entire country if needs be. If sufficiently provoked, and if it is clear that this is the only means of remove the scourge, we will do so. I emphasize this is a contingency, and not a primary strategy.

Regarding offensive strategies:
Generally in war the best policy is to take a state intact; to ruin it is inferior to this.
Li Chuan: Do not put a premium on killing

To capture the enemy's army is better than to destroy it; to take intact a battalion, a company, or a five-man squad is better than to destroy them.

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

Thus, what is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy;
Tu Mu:...He who excels at resolving difficulties does so before they areise. He who excels in conquering his enemies triumphs before threats materialze.
Li Ch'uan:Attack plans at their inception...
Next best is to disrupt his alliances

Net best is to attack his army

The worst policy is to attack cities. Attack cities only when there is no alternative.

[...]

Your aim is to take All-under-Heaven intact....

Consequently, the art of using troops is this: When ten to the enemy's one, surround him;

When five times his strength, attack him.

[Various descending force scenarios.]

...And if in all resepects unequal, be capable of eluding him, for a small force is but booty for one more powerful.

The advice about fighting smart is well taken. Prophylactic actions could likely have avoided the current scenario, though whether this could have been done without raising hackles in the mideast is doubtful. Having absorbed the first hit, the US doesn't need to seek justification for its response. We've done a pretty good job of disrupting any Taliban / Al Qaeda alliances -- there are no overt supporters of any significance for the Taliban. We're doing fairly good work on their armed forces.

Some of the assumptions of Sun Tzu's time have changed -- it's possible for both us and the enemy to slip past lines and inflict damages. However the logistics of significant troop movements has not changed -- neither we nor they can move large forces without respect for the other's position and presence.

Regards the last point: the Taliban and Al Qaeda are by any measure a force inferior to the US. In the face of direct onslaught, they can do nothing but retreat. Retreating into the shelter of their own people loses the first factor of success: moral influence. They are drawing destruction on their own people, intentionally.

Unlike any military action since World War II, this need not be a limited action. The US was constrained by both Cold War and homeland realities in its involvement in Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Somalia, and Bosnia. Credible evidence to me indicates there's little if any limit to actions ObL will consider. Stop at all costs becomes a tenable position. And, in this light, the Taliban and Al Qaeda do not have any militarially supportable option but surrender or elimination. The only mistake the US can make is in treating this as anything but total war. Humanitarian activities are best left outside the kill zone, and all efforts made to move noncombatents to same.

The only quarrel I have with your comments on minimizing civilian casualties is that you're wagging the dog. Rather than hobbling the military, move the innocents out of the way.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates

My point was that Taliban moving troops into civillian areas is a survival 'tactic' (of course its deplorable - that is a 'moral' judgement) as a tactic, if it works then it is a sound survival tactic if it means their troops survive. Remember that from a tactical perspective the US can easly wipe out their forces if they are in the open. Remember to that they don't have a conventional standing army - just citizens with guns, some of whom are full time fighters vs part-time. Most of the Arabs ran away within days of the Sept 11th attack (there are numerous reports on that). Most volunteerrs ariving are Pashtuns from Pakistan.

I am convinced that there is a substantial confusion between the morallity of actions & the tactical nature of the same actions. If we are talking morality we need to be clear thats what we are talking. I am sure we are in total agreement on the moral issue.

"I do not see the Taliban having, or securing by its actions, moral influence." - I understand your point but surely we would need to ask Afghans this question, not us ??? - we can't be expected to see anything but immorality in their very existance so surely we are biased. Even the quote you use says ... "By moral influence, I mean that which causes the people to be in harmony with their leaders, so that they will accompany them in life and unto death without fear of mortal peril." - now if the Afghan citizens agree with you, then what you say is correct.

Cheers

Doug


New Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates
Remember to that they don't have a conventional standing army - just citizens with guns, some of whom are full time fighters vs part-time. Most of the Arabs ran away within days of the Sept 11th attack (there are numerous reports on that). Most volunteerrs ariving are Pashtuns from Pakistan.

Last I heard, they had 40-60k men opposing the Northern Alliance.

That's not a bunch of guys on a weekend jaunt. They've got far more than just AKs. That's T-72s, heavy artillery, etc. That's a *lot* of logistical support required.

Al' Queda's has been widely reported as being the tough, dedicated, well-trained core of the Taliban troops, and that was a large part of OBL's power base. Train them well, let them fight, get experience, etc.

My point was that Taliban moving troops into civillian areas is a survival 'tactic' (of course its deplorable - that is a 'moral' judgement) as a tactic, if it works then it is a sound survival tactic if it means their troops survive.

If - if they don't care about the civilians.

Which I don't think that they do. So for your case to make sense, then they're not fighting for/defending the civilians. (what you're arguing they are/do, when they're proving otherwise)

Addison
New Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates
You're still debating this idiot? :=)

(idiot = gentle term.)
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New Ah.. the unbiased-idiot report: thanks for clarifying
just Everything. Let me guess - you too only ever speak *facts*, so any counter to *those* ---> idiocy. (And naturally too - these are All of the 'facts' that are relevant. Because they are your-facts) Right?

I think I understand ar least a pair of you only-the-Facts, Maam presenters a bit better, now. (Hey I thought that Facts like that were found only in the Religion arena of Certainty; now you say there are Political-Facts too??

How do You spel s a n c t i m o n y ??


A.


0.pin.ion n

"1. a belief not based on absolute certainty or positive knowledge but on what seems true,valid, or probable to one's own mind; what one thinks; judgment."

Emphasis added, for the humility-impaired and the ever-Certain amongst us. Next we can look up simplistic.

Nahhhh. Never mind.
New Yes of course.
I am Mr. Factoid, you didn't know that? Every thing I speak is as if it were from the lips of Mohammed or God, and we know they are both truth incarnate.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
     Taliban strength surprises Pentagon - (bluke) - (33)
         I dislike unnamed sources - (wharris2) - (10)
             Re: I am wary of the poisoning threat - (dmarker2)
             Kosovo conflict was won by precision bombing... - (Arkadiy)
             Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more - (dmarker2) - (7)
                 Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more - (addison) - (4)
                     Surprises are a given - (Ric Locke)
                     Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more - (dmarker2) - (2)
                         Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more - (addison) - (1)
                             Re: I dislike unnamed sources - NOT unamed any more - (dmarker2)
                 News sources my ascii - (wharris2) - (1)
                     Re: News sources my ascii - (dmarker2)
         Sun Tzu: Estimates - (kmself) - (21)
             Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates - (dmarker2) - (20)
                 Survival of who? - (addison) - (13)
                     Re: Survival of who? - (dmarker2) - (12)
                         Re: Survival of who? - (addison) - (11)
                             Re: Survival of who? - (dmarker2) - (6)
                                 In the same vein, - (addison) - (5)
                                     Re: In the same vein, - (dmarker2) - (4)
                                         Re: In the same vein, - (addison) - (3)
                                             Re: In the same vein, - (dmarker2) - (2)
                                                 Re: In the same vein, - (addison) - (1)
                                                     Heh.. last post - (Ashton)
                             hate to ruin a perfectly degenerating thread - (boxley) - (3)
                                 Re: hate to ruin a perfectly degenerating thread - (dmarker2) - (2)
                                     Distinction: 055 brigade vs Afghan soldiers - (brettj) - (1)
                                         links? proves? -NT - (boxley)
                 Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates - (kmself) - (5)
                     Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates - (dmarker2) - (4)
                         Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates - (addison) - (3)
                             Re: Sun Tzu: Estimates - (wharris2) - (2)
                                 Ah.. the unbiased-idiot report: thanks for clarifying - (Ashton) - (1)
                                     Yes of course. - (wharris2)

She's sunk full fathom five, five, five!
553 ms