"instead" not "in stead". HTH.

Post #149,464 by mmoffitt 3/31/04 8:52:56 AM Reply	"instead" not "in stead". HTH. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #149,468 by boxley 3/31/04 9:30:10 AM Reply	oh shit, duck "You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #149,478 by inthane-chan 3/31/04 10:48:59 AM Reply	Fire in the hole!
Post #149,479 by jake123 3/31/04 10:49:27 AM Reply	Wrong simile goose, not duck. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #149,529 by CRConrad 3/31/04 3:09:46 PM Reply	You really sure on that? I think I've seen both... ...variants; and Idunno if I'm imagining it, but I think the concatenated version usually emanates from across the Atlantic; maybe it's a Murricanism, and Real English writes it the way I do? (Peter?) If not, then no sweat; I'll try to remember that next time. (Or nexttime, if you will.) Oh, and Jake, I didn't get the goose thing, either. (Maybe I'm too tired.) So sue me. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #149,531 by drewk 3/31/04 3:11:42 PM Reply	Goose, as in poke: "Don't goose the testy Swede" PS: Yes, I know you're not a native. :-P === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #149,540 by Arkadiy 3/31/04 3:39:48 PM Reply	From what I remember "stead" is an old word for "replacement", or, as [link\|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=stead\|dictionary.com] puts it, "the function or position properly or customarily occupied or served by another". I do not think that this word is still used on its own, although I would not be surprised to see "in his stead" from some politician shooting for "gravitas". ESL'R'Us :) -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #149,545 by CRConrad 3/31/04 3:54:21 PM Reply	If it's good enough for Chaucer, it's good enough for me... On the [link\|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=stead\|page you linked to, Ark], search for these words: "...bounds, he a pillar set." [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #149,548 by Arkadiy 3/31/04 3:57:57 PM Reply	Geoffrey Chaucer (ca.1343-1400) Care to reconsider? -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #149,551 by jake123 3/31/04 4:00:55 PM Reply	Why would he? It's only the second most important work of literature in the English Language, after Beowulf. The fact that most people in North America are ignorant of their language's history (and indeed of its beauty in its permutations through time) doesn't mean we all have to toss aside constructions and words because they don't appear in American Pop Culture anymore. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #149,593 by ben_tilly 3/31/04 6:50:49 PM Reply	Because it isn't really in our language? What we know today as English is more properly known as Modern English. This is usually dated as starting from the Great Vowel Shift during the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1. Even so, we don't accept the latitude of spelling that, say, Shakespeare enjoyed. Chaucer spoke a closely related language (we can mostly read it, but couldn't understand it spoken) called Middle English. You can get a sample at [link\|http://www.librarius.com/gy.htm\|http://www.librarius.com/gy.htm]. Most people have trouble reading it, and a lot of the words there aren't words in English as well. Beuwulf is in Old English, or Anglo-Saxon which is incomprehensible to most, see [link\|http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/library/oe/texts/a4.1.html\|http://www.georgetow...e/texts/a4.1.html] for a sample. As an example of how different even basic grammatical concepts were, English today has no genders. Anglo-Saxon had no less than 5 genders (strong masculine, weak masculine, neuter, weak feminine, strong feminine). Virtually any Latin-based word that we use today was not part of the language. A good number of the words that we kept are now swear-words (eg fuck) or bears a negative connotation (eg cunt vs vagina). Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #149,646 by jake123 4/1/04 12:26:21 AM Reply	Weird I actually have an easier time understanding Chaucer when spoken than I do when reading it. 'Course, I can neither read nor understand Beowulf in its original form. That said, there are still many things in Chaucer that are found in today's english; while the spelling and pronunciation are different, the words are the same... when you listen to them and apply the middle english "accent". --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #149,647 by ben_tilly 4/1/04 12:31:16 AM Reply	You wouldn't understand Chaucer speaking it, though When it is spoken by a modern speaker, the language is mangled to sound more like it does now. In particular you undo the effects of the great vowel shift. I've heard reconstructions of what it could have sounded like. I completely couldn't understand them. Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #149,651 by jake123 4/1/04 12:35:15 AM Reply	I dunno the guy who was reading it was an English prof here. There was a very large difference in the vowel sounds he was using from modern english... sounded dutch almost. However, after a few lines, it was pretty obvious which went where (to me anyway) and I had no trouble understanding it after that. 'Course, I was also reading it at the same time he was, just not out loud:) That was back in the mid-eighties, when I was taking English, Ancient Greek, Latin, and Symbolic Logic. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #149,658 by Ashton 4/1/04 5:04:29 AM Reply	The Knight's Tale, in "Middle English" [excerpts - as must natch be deGuidoized, me droogies] First, from the [link\|http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-old?id=Cha2Can&images=images/modeng&data=/lv1/Archive/mideng-parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1\| Knight's Portrait] 43: A knyght ther was, and that a worthy man, [A K'nik't there waas, and that a ware-e-thy m(o)n] 44: That fro the tyme that he first bigan 45: To riden out, he loved chivalrie, 46: Trouthe and honour, fredom and curteisie. 47: Ful worthy was he in his lordes werre, 48: And therto hadde he riden, no man ferre, 49: As wel in cristendom as in hethenesse, 50: And evere honoured for his worthynesse. 51: At alisaundre he was whan it was wonne. 52: Ful ofte tyme he hadde the bord bigonne 53: Aboven alle nacions in pruce; 54: In lettow hadde he reysed and in ruce, 55: No cristen man so ofte of his degree. 56: In gernade at the seege eek hadde he be 57: Of algezir, and riden in belmarye. 58: At lyeys was he and at satalye, 59: Whan they were wonne; and in the grete see 60: At many a noble armee hadde he be. 61: At mortal batailles hadde he been fiftene, 62: And foughten for oure feith at tramyssene 63: In lystes thries, and ay slayn his foo. 64: This ilke worthy knyght hadde been also 65: Somtyme with the lord of palatye 66: Agayn another hethen in turkye. [link\|http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-old?id=Cha2Can&images=images/modeng&data=/lv1/Archive/mideng-parsed&tag=public&part=2&division=div1\| The Knight's Tale] 987: He faught, and slough hym manly as a knyght 988: In pleyn bataille, and putte the folk to flyght; 989: And by assaut he wan the citee after, 990: And rente adoun bothe wall and sparre and rafter; 991: And to the ladyes he restored agayn 992: The bones of hir housbondes that were slayn, 993: To doon obsequies, as was tho the gyse. 994: But it were al to longe for to devyse 995: The grete clamour and the waymentynge 996: That the ladyes made at the brennynge 997: Of the bodies, and the grete honour 998: That theseus, the noble conquerour, 999: Dooth to the ladyes, whan they from hym wente; 1000: But shortly for to telle is myn entente. 1001: Whan that this worthy duc, this theseus, 1002: Hath creon slayn, and wonne thebes thus, 1003: Stille in that feeld he took al nyght his reste, 1004: And dide with al the contree as hym leste. 1005: To ransake in the taas of bodyes dede, I still remember the (as taught) pronunciations of many of the words, now grateful for having been 'forced' to memorize some passages. It was/is fun to speak and - I challenge the assertion that it's incomprehensible. With an hour or two drill/practice, actually paying Attention - it indeed rolls trippingly off the tongue, and from even this vast chasm across events. And maybe especially - amidst today's Great Silliness. Surely the engrams activated by this minor exercise, gave first clues about Language itself.. sneaky, that Teacher. Doing/Saying 'Chaucer' connected lots of fragments and hints about how our brains (this one anyway) grab something expressible out of the infinite soup accumulated thus (that) far. You Can at least begin to 'feel' why it is, that C. survived.. all the way to the Great Regression of the post-literate Era-of-Distracting-Toys. (I deem that, if "all work and no play" makes Jack a dull boy; all play and no work: begets a nation of inarticulate Dubyas, Rushes and Murican Idols ---> Our Futchah.) [Though countering this assertion -at least superficially- I see: My Gramma! knew some Chaucer - and she was a Dubya/Rush surrogate.] What's that about All Generalizations Being False? Merely memorizing Chaucer is hardly appreciating the cat, or why he survived even in superficial Murica, at least up to ~ 50 years ago. Yes, one needs a glossary for such 'wer-des' as brennynge, waymentynge and the like. But the fluidity of metre -as spoken- and the sense of each phrase: Comes Through. 'Course such lore is irrelevant to getting your drivers license, MBA and that job at WallBurger. Evidently even the name 'Chaucer' shall become as unfamiliar as Agamemnon or Hypatia - if not already so. But WTF - can Chaucer in NewSpeak be far behind? Props fer the swingin Nonne, that habit habitu\ufffd with bling-blings... (from the Prurient Priory of Pecksniffery, LLC) ch-aa ch-aa ch-aaa
Post #149,663 by pwhysall 4/1/04 6:06:12 AM Reply	Of course we can read Middle English, Ash. We can read YOUR posts, can't we? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #149,708 by Ashton 4/1/04 2:16:10 PM Reply	No dice.. that's Advanced. Ya insufferable twit - Defenders of the Subordinate Clause LLC Subversively undoing damaged attention spans everywhere, wrought by Digi-speak TLAs and MAN-pages extralinguistic yammerers - outside the province of linguistics :-\ufffd
Post #149,546 by jake123 3/31/04 3:57:31 PM Reply	No, stead is still a word The fact that you don't hear it "on the street" doesn't mean it's not a word. One particular form of it has become a separate word (ie- instead) simply because it's the most common place of use in a sentence, but it can be used in other ways. The example you cite is a perfectly acceptable use of the word. You only use instead when there is absolutely no possible ambiguity about the object in question. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #149,634 by pwhysall 3/31/04 11:38:15 PM Reply	"In stead" .eq. "instead" Speakers of English For Simpletons may not have happened across this. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #149,672 by mmoffitt 4/1/04 8:52:23 AM Reply	Or those not accustomed to using obsolete forms in modern speech. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #149,683 by pwhysall 4/1/04 9:48:26 AM Reply	Not necessarily obsolete in Actual English. What you merkins choose to do is up to you :-) Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #149,709 by Ashton 4/1/04 2:18:25 PM Reply	er__________{cackle}___Home Sweet Home Stead
Post #150,079 by mmoffitt 4/5/04 12:02:30 PM Reply	Because. We're in charge of everything. Haven't you been paying attention? I thought you, especially, would know that since your PM is our lap dog. :-D bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"

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