Yup, AFAIK, it did.

Post #14,544 by CRConrad 10/22/01 10:04:42 AM Reply	Yup, AFAIK, it did. Da Gryge: Did this "Islamic Golden Age" ever extend much beyond the courts of rulers so wealthy and powerful they did whatever they wanted? Yup; from all I've read about it, such tolerance and open-mindedness seems to have been, not an exception, but the rule. Was all this supported by police state repression far and wide (including unfriendly clerics)? No, from what I've gathered (in my admittedly scattered and not-very-deep reading), it wasn't. Why is it so hard for you to believe that they really were pretty good guys, a few centuries back? Has the current wave of general-demonization-of-Islam propaganda already had so much of an effect on you (all), or what? Islam's response... It isn't that monolithic; that's about as over-simplified as talking about "The Christian attitude to Jews" (or whatever). ...to the citizens of a conquered city who begged that their library be spared: "If what is in these books is not in the Koran, than it is false. If it is in the Koran, then it is redundant". Replace "Koran" with "Bible", and doesn't it look exactly like a corresponding mediaeval Christian statement? (And, hey, considering that we're only in the sixteenth century, by their reckoning, isn't it appropriate for them to be mediaeval right about now...? :-) On the whole, I think "If what is in these books is not in the Bible, than it is false. If it is in the Bible, then it is redundant" is more typical of Christianity, than "If what is in these books is not in the Koran, than it is false. If it is in the Koran, then it is redundant" is of Islam. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #14,564 by Andrew Grygus 10/22/01 11:27:48 AM Reply	So, then, what happened? (and don't think for a moment I consider Bible banging Christian fundamentalist thugs one bit better than any other sect of the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic line of religions). How did the Islamic world fall from intellectual dominance into the hell hole of ignorance it is today? It certainly wasn't defeated by the Christians. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #14,568 by wharris2 10/22/01 11:38:39 AM Reply	And when? From all appearances, the Islamic golden age had been in decline for some time before the Renaissance was under way. "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." -- Donald Knuth
Post #14,597 by ben_tilly 10/22/01 1:43:53 PM Reply	I am no scholar but... I believe a combination of factors were at work. First of all there were internal factors, combined with external invasions. You had the Christian Crusades, then Ghengis Kahn, then Tamerlane and a resurgance of European power. Internally you had decadence and the growing ignorance of what the Koran said due to the fact that Arabic became less and less known to the general public. Judging by [link\|http://users.erols.com/zenithco/decline1.htm\|this lecture] on the topic, those combined with the internal decadence were the main problems that they see. (Incidentally that lecture contains a wonderful description of what the Arabic world was like at its height.) However you then had several external factors that aren't so visible. First you had the great European voyages of discovery. Prior to those, the primary trading routes to the East went along the Great Silk Route, enrichening Islamic peoples on the way. But as it became cheaper for Europe to trade directly around the world, trade moved away from the expensive overland routes leading to an economic decline. A second factor is a change in what you compare it to. An enlightened and prosperous society by the standards of 1000 AD is not so enlightened or prosperous by the standards of 1700, and it is downright downtrodden by the standards of 2000. A third factor was Napoleon. From the Crusades to Napoleon, European military abilities progressed tremendously, but Europe continued to think of the Islamic world as much better than them militarily. Then Napoleon conquered Egypt without trouble and Europe realized how much things had changed. Very shortly thereafter you find European countries bullying the Islamic world pretty much at will. (Hence the famous comment about how sick the Ottoman Empire was - by size it was a great power, but even minor European countries were more powerful.) Then we discovered the value of oil, and began playing games of realpolitik with their governments. Cheers, Ben

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