(OK I like orthogonal; it's a fey disdainful Insider word; needs only the Publically-encrypted key & handshake, to intimidate the dysliterati.)

IMhO - Ross merely 'sounds' like some of the trodlodytes dredged up here. Unfortunately.. for a Quick-Pick of these black/white faux-sides, I think he's on the horns of a more subtle dilemma here, and has failed to er explicate? exactly where his 'instinctual' judgments are meeting a basic metaphysical barrier ->| So not everyone is a Cicero, eh?

Where to begin, when a tangent is approaching an asymptote? WTF, let's try this:

Look, Puritanism, "the nagging fear that Somewhere, SomeHow Someone.. is enjoying himself.." -- this pernicious afterglow of the Hugely misogynistic metaphor of that Garden/Eden thing -

["Blame Snake - He Made Me Eat of the Fruit"; Oh, for Xians - Snake==Woman]

Puritanism is by now so deeply ingrained in what passes for Murican kultur, only very few have ever been able to cleanse their souls of its pernicious putrefying effects. The language itself has now adsorbed connotations of Pleasure/Sex == Bad and You Were Born Guilty .. and all the rest of the horseshit that is inculcated from the day little babies get pink or blue nappies.

Now, from such a deranged milieu.. just throw in :-0
Non-Standard pleasurable / sexual acting-out -- and watch the neurons go into anaphylactic SHOCK. And.. they do.

THAT is where this thread really began from, and countless ones since even before the Inquisition, even before the suppressing of all those early scrolls (and the ones that really did get burned). Precisely! as the Conquistadores 'bulldozed' all vestiges of the culture they came solely: to loot, just South of the current 'looted' US. (We're well practised in that method, we see.)

Folks, this discussion and most like it - completely omit the pre-Xian rich civilizations of the kind: *Not* dedicated to perpetual warfare; *Not* dedicated to the perpetual protection of the fragile male-ego and the relegation of 'females' to: 3rd Class servitors, nonentities disallowed from participation in the fruits of labour, the spiritual life and intellectual aspirations of the entire group. yada yada.

In brief, it's my opinion that - from within this milieu, and from no personal information about That Which Was Destroyed by and since ~ the plan of Constantine: there can't BE any semi-objective assessment of 'sexuality' or even pleasurable activity: just black/white spluttering.

I accept Ross's assertion that ~ "he doesn't harbor malice re 'homosexuals'" - even though I cannot see that he demonstrates a sustainable perspective which is not infected by rampant Puritanism too, (probably all unawares).
[And THAT: would be Hard to Do, given the history of our constricted Consciousness.]
BTW: 'Perversion' is a word which presupposes that one possesses a clear experience of The Sublime: First. See the Catch?

Nor may I pretend to have cleansed my own early-conditioning .. back to pre-Constantine, less intentionally malicious days: I only claim to see that the damage has been continuous, progressive and - possibly Terminal:

Terminal? Yes -
Given the proliferation of Heartless Mindless very-efficient nuclear Infernal Devices: embraced and yes, Loved.. in that perverse sense of the word, if you constructed a {ugh} sentence, "Cheney loves ____"




Arguing about whether "homosexuality is Right" - is IMhO tantamount to seeking to convince via the [link|http://webpages.charter.net/djhalnon/anselm.html| Ontological Proof of Gawd]; it's so fucked it's not even Wrong.

Lastly - I don't really give a shit how "Ross's social development / skills" .. "measure up/down" with mine, yours or some Mythical Average within Puritan Murica '04. I just won't rank him with KKK, Nazis - for a value judgment which is weighted towards [hopes for] "survival beyond the inane 00s" of a bunch of effete, spoiled non-voting Consumer Yuppies whose actual God is: The Acquisition of Limitless $$. By any means Possible.

Such a 'culture' needs to die; it need not take all the people with it -- but, WTF do *you* think the neoconmen Preverts of the world will do with Limitless Power? Let some others Get Away???

So: bite me.



Maybe we can have a small chat about Constantine + the Xian Rewrite, sometime: endless sardonic fun, that Massive Coup over sentience! His was an early Fatherland Security Sweep - with full lethal Powers over any recalcitrant Ones. Effective as Hell (prolly still effective in those who believe in such fantasy, Literally. Still.) This is already too long.


Ashton,
incorrigible, most likely