Post #115,006
8/22/03 7:48:53 PM
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Ok...play along...
..say someone wants to change careers and enter IT...but doesn't want to go to full blown college to do it.
Would certifications be enough to get an otherwise degreed individual into the field.
If so, which ones.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #115,008
8/22/03 8:00:23 PM
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No... NOT in *THIS* economy currently.
You are about 4 years to late Bill.
But... if you were gonna do it... Programming is about the only thing.
Ask others and not me on that.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[insert witty saying here]
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Post #115,013
8/22/03 9:00:12 PM
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Depends on the job and employer
If you are going to do Java programming, you'd have to get Java certified. If you want Microsoft (VB, VC++, C#, J#, etc) you'd have to get a MCSD. So it really depends on what languages you are going to use if you are going to be a developer.
I used to work with someone who was an Engineer, and not a programmer. I helped him learn the Visual BASIC language, and eventually he went and got certified and left the company to earn more money elsewhere. It didn't seem to matter that his degrees were in Engineering and not Computer Science or IT. At least not to the contracting company that hired him. As long as he could get the job done, that is all they cared about.
But be aware that the IT market is highly competitive, and you'd be going against people with 5 to 10 years or more of experience in the field. You'd most likely have to network to find a company that would hire you without the experience. Maybe get an Entry Level job and work your way from there?
Good luck, you'll need it.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #115,017
8/22/03 9:31:44 PM
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Careful - I'm thinking of getting out
This economy is no time to switch to this field.
But the stuff I am seeing involves either Java or .NYET certs. At least for programming.
I think you'd be better off becoming a certified network engineer - cisco certs or something.
Smalltalk is dangerous. It is a drug. My advice to you would be don't try it; it could ruin your life. Once you take the time to learn it (to REALLY learn it) you will see that there is nothing out there (yet) to touch it. Of course, like all drugs, how dangerous it is depends on your character. It may be that once you've got to this stage you'll find it difficult (if not impossible) to "go back" to other languages and, if you are forced to, you might become an embittered character constantly muttering ascerbic comments under your breath. Who knows, you may even have to quit the software industry altogether because nothing else lives up to your new expectations.
--AndyBower
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Post #115,028
8/22/03 11:44:04 PM
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Nope... that is going the same way...
Nothing is growing yet.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
[insert witty saying here]
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Post #115,024
8/22/03 10:07:36 PM
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Not programming!
At least for application and system development. This is a "long term" activity most easily exported to India and such places. There are mostly opportunity costs if this work is delayed or even scrapped.
Unless the company is going tits up, only critical, "hands on", operational IT work is safe from vanishing. Even then, you can find your employer has sold you to an outsource firm like EDS.
So, that means gathering Microsoft, Novell, Cisco, Red Hat, etc. certifications.
My 2 karbovanets.
Alex
"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
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Post #115,050
8/23/03 10:55:52 AM
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Oooh. Bad timing.
But if someone really wants to do this, IMTHO - the future will be Free+OSS.
The present is Windows and Unix closed-source infrastructure (including closed custom apps with available source).
The move is inevitable; Free+OSS isn't hobbled by the need to reinvent the wheel over and over again.
If you(?) are going to get certified for infrastructure work, I'd get certs in both Windows and Linux environments. MCSE & RHCE. That way, you fit into today's environments (I admit, into true Unix obliquely), fit into the upcoming need to migrate, and into the future.
If you want to scratch a programming itch, I'd suggest a multi-platform language(s) - C/C++ or Java, perhaps. PHP is cool, too. I dunno what certs would help you there.. Courses from a college might impress HR long enough to get to folk that can recognize ability.
Take this advice for what it's worth, coming from someone struggling to stay alive. Of course, you know I'm famous for not following my own advice... *grin*
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #115,056
8/23/03 11:14:44 AM
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well define Enter the field
Go get an A+ Cert 1st, cant even get entry level bech tech without it. Get a bench tech job, listen, learn impress others. Then apply for crap salaried high tech hands on support. Even the largest Indian Outsourcing firm in the world (TATA) has to hire americans to assemble the racks and install the servers.
thanx,
bill
America, Love it or give it back
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #115,063
8/23/03 12:16:14 PM
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Its all gamesmanship at the moment..
....so I really would like to leave "enter" as an exersize for the reader.
My current thought process is to concentrate on networking...I have project management backround already from the biz side.
The comments that I get (and yes, Virginia, I know the timing is bad) all center around the fact that I like computers, I'm pretty good at dealing with them (and in my opinion that "good enough"..isn't..which is why I've always hesitated).
Issue really centers around how to get in somewhere above entry level given the fact that I don't have a classical IT education...which would generally mean I wouldn't have to take a pay hit to make the move.
What i've been trying to do is break over into business process automation and consulting...something that I've been doing from the business process side...and anything that would document me as being at least adequate on the automation side may help me make the move.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #115,065
8/23/03 12:18:14 PM
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Re: Its all gamesmanship at the moment..
Oh, it's YOU?
Well, welcome to our nightmare!!
I'd get a hell-desk job to start - prolly $25 per hour or so, and it's all day on the phone - but given your superior people skills you'll be outstanding. From that you can "migrate" into project management.
-drl
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Post #115,070
8/23/03 1:31:37 PM
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I would suggest looking at a CISCO CERT
followed by a 3 day SS7 course with a RH Cert as well and go into Project management as a contractor around Philly. You too can be a Excel Jockey flogging H1B contractors unmercifully.
thanx,
Bill
America, Love it or give it back
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #115,085
8/23/03 3:53:27 PM
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Join PMI - get a cert
Seriously, the Project Management Institute is a professional organization of - you guessed it - project managers - all kinds of them.
Certs aren't too hard to get for an seasoned employee (one with scars). Believe it or not, I often see Software Proj Mgt postings requesting PMI certification.
Disclaimer - I don't have a PMI cert but am toying with the idea of getting one. Also, I'm writing an article for the Denver chapter newletter on common fanatasies in software project management. This came about when I found myself sitting next to the Denver chapter president at a VC Fund Fest and I gave him an earfull of stupid things project managers do in software. He asked me to write it up for publication.
Smalltalk is dangerous. It is a drug. My advice to you would be don't try it; it could ruin your life. Once you take the time to learn it (to REALLY learn it) you will see that there is nothing out there (yet) to touch it. Of course, like all drugs, how dangerous it is depends on your character. It may be that once you've got to this stage you'll find it difficult (if not impossible) to "go back" to other languages and, if you are forced to, you might become an embittered character constantly muttering ascerbic comments under your breath. Who knows, you may even have to quit the software industry altogether because nothing else lives up to your new expectations.
--AndyBower
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Post #115,489
8/26/03 9:44:21 PM
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PMI?
Have you looked to Project Management Institute certification?
I have some manuals. The funny part is that most of it to me is common sense and yet I'm told that "common sense" isn't real common.
Of course, PMI runs exactly opposite to where I work right now. Ours is the land of nebulous requirements, all night/weekend/day pushes to get something out the door. Then, the realization that it wasn't even close to what we needed.
But, also, I'm happy to have a paycheck, and my boss appreciates my efforts, which is much more than I can say for the previous gig.
Glen Austin
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Post #115,493
8/26/03 9:56:35 PM
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shizzit do you work here?
Spent 30 hrs last week
I need this configured.
Our scheduled time for that is 5 working days.
we need it tomorrow.
see above
management takes a hand done rinse and repeat for several days.
Now configure this we start testing tomorrow.
Sorry we dont have the hardware to do that, if you told me a week ago I would have told you we cannot physically do this
If we got the hardware and paid for it (a whole new platform) 3 weeks, why dont you use the existing one?
isnt it incompatible?
no ITS A FUCKING FAX!!!!!!!!!!!! HOW DOES A FSCKING FAX KNOW WHAT VERSION I AM ON!!!!!!!
management gets involved, all work is halted and they agree that a fax machine cannot determine software version so they will happily continue as planned on the existing platform. 30 hrs wasted.
I will insinuate and subvert in a month no implementation managers can open a ticket without my approval but techs may open at any time. Without a tech we will subvert, because a PM works off of other folks input, and when it is jamming they dont know enough details to order resources properly. It will save both companies, time resources and of course money. Gah,
I have of course been warned that belching out ideas on conference calls with muckymucks will not be tolerated. Luckily my boss(es) are happy to forward these ideas for me.
thanx,
bill
America, Love it or give it back
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #115,883
8/29/03 5:16:57 PM
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PMI and Program Management
To me at least, the technical side of PMI/Program Management isn't that high (ie: your common sense). The HARD part is the people skills. You have to pull estimates (and get statuses) out of programmers who really, REALLY don't want to give them. They you have to give the bad results to upper management who really, REALLY doesn't want to hear bad news.
But that's my take. Personally I think Program Management leads nicely into a management job.
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Post #118,602
9/23/03 2:17:34 PM
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Agree w/ Todd and Glen
With your background, a PMI cert would be the ticket. Besides, suits hate techies, and if you look more like a suit, you'll look more like employed!
Where I am now, the PMI'ers (and they're not bad people) are in great demand, and are actually doing good work for the Company.
jb4
Boy I'd like to see those words on a PR banner behind [Treasury Secretary John] Snow at the podium:
Jobs and Growth: Just Wait.
John J. Andrew, unemployed programmer; see jobforjohn.com
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Post #115,082
8/23/03 3:19:01 PM
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My opinion on certs
...is that database certifications are worth more than platform or programming language certifications. A couple of off hand reasons.
Numbers: Practically every business has (or needs) a database. Fewer need (or even want) software programmers.
Prerequisites: Even if you are seeking a programming job, a lot of them require knowledge of the database servers. It's easier to fake programming for one knowledgeable in databases than it is for a grunt to have an appreciation of the complexity of business data. A lot of those available programming jobs involve interfaces to Oracle, SQLServer, or DB2. Even if you get Java certs, you're still not gonna make the cut if you don't know Oracle (or whatever db their using).
In & Out: Custom software is usually involved - requiring years for some of the stuff I do. Although proficiency in a particular software package has it's perks - coming about as close to job security as you can get - it has it's drawbacks as well - few companies willing to spring for long-term projects in tough times. Databases have a much wider range of job availability - everywhere from one day projects for clean up, to design, all the way to years of babysitting multiple servers or data analysis. For example, few software programmers can work for multiple companies on multiple contracts at the same. Many companies like their DBAs to be that way.
++++
That said, the economy in general sucks. So changing from any job to any other job is not easy.
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Post #115,083
8/23/03 3:22:06 PM
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Same reasoning for Cisco certs
Everyone has a network. Although I think Oracle certs have a wider range of applicability: dba, stored proc programmer, db design, etc.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #115,171
8/24/03 12:17:45 PM
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OK, playing...
Point to your current resume
That way I can focus on a direction.
But without that, we need to define "enter IT".
What are your financial expectations / requirements?
And no, you will not get a $25 per hour job doing tech
support.
Reboot script monkeys are lucky to get $10 an hour.
Anything past that requires real skills which quickly
evaporate or go obsolete, so real tech people get out
of that as soon as possible.
We are in the process of hiring someone in the $40K
range at a hands-on Windows/Unix production guy. You
saw the ad I posted. I assume you'd be qualified for
this type of position but I'm not sure.
This type of position is a rarity. Low education (non
tech degrees do not count) low experience (home networks
do not count) "trainee" position are lucky to go
over $20K.
Entry level certs are worthless. High level certs
only have value combined with experience. It used to
be a person with a high level cert but not much experience
could get a decent job because there were so many positions
for so few people. Now it is the reverse and you are
competing with experienced people for the same positions.
If you want less tech and more hassle, you might be
qualified for project management. I say MIGHT because
in my world, project management also includes a lot of
analyst work. Fields, rules, layouts, and then finally
actual business process. The suggestions concerning PMI
certification are valid, and will give you an edge, but
not required.
I wish I had know about your interest. We hired 2 low tech
project managers in the last 2 months.
We might have a couple positions open in a while on
the account management side. This is not really a tech
position, more like a mix of big picture project
management along with upsell. You would need to learn
enough about the tech aspects of what we do to be effective
in talking about it, but not enough that you'd actually
have to do it.
When you don't have specific in-demand tech skills and you
need to make enough money to actually support a family,
you have to either be in sales or management. Choose
your poison.
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Post #116,854
9/6/03 3:18:57 AM
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Re: Ok...play along...
Get yourself a *deskside* support gig. Not one where you just answer the phone, but one where you actually go out to the customer. The pay will be poor, but you'll make yourself known and get a good reputation. And it's a job that won't be outsourced to India. Sites which require a security clearance are often best for this, as is local government.
qts
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