Post #9,711
9/19/01 1:50:14 PM
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Between a rock and a hard place.
I saw an article (no link, sorry) saying that the common Afghan subject hates the Taliban, and is suffering under their oppression, and would we please not bomb them into oblivion. I'd rather not bomb them into oblivion at any rate, but I do hope they have the sense to get out of the way when we go after the Taliban. Stay away from government/military installations. And don't stand too close to anybody who looks like bin Laden.
Jillions of people, against a few armed thugs. Oh, but the thugs are armed, and the jillions are not. Well, we all should know by now what that's worth.* We were better armed than the thugs, and they got past our defenses. Can the people on the spot get past theirs? It would be nice if they'd at least try. Statistically, it's practically a sure thing that one of them would get close enough to take out an official or two in a suicide attack. Enough of this, and the Taliban are wiped out, the suicide bombers go to heaven, and the people rejoice, and are showered with food aid from the US.
The article gave the impression that the Afghan people are natural victims. The kind of people that bullies like the Taliban just walk all over, because they can. Conflict avoiders. Appeasers. They don't hate us. They're just not willing to stand up for... themselves, let alone us.
* Then there's the Viet Cong against the US. The Germans against (actually, around) the Maginot Line, twice. And going further back, the American Revolutionaries against the Redcoats. Military superiority is way overrated. It's smarts, plus the will to fight, that matter more in the end. No excuses. But those who worship power can never grasp this. If they have power, they treat the weak with contempt. If they lack power, they meekly suffer ill-treatment from the strong. May Anglophone civilization never fall into this fatal fallacy. Nietzsche is dead. Bury him already.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,715
9/19/01 2:27:21 PM
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I detect a slight aimed in my direction.
And before I go off, I just want to make sure that it actually was aimed at me, and not just aimed at Nietzche in general.
Am I correct?
Or am I overreacting?
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #9,731
9/19/01 4:26:52 PM
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No, I didn't have you in mind.
But if you wished to be trolled, I'm always happy to oblige.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,749
9/19/01 6:03:25 PM
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Not interested.
Besides, it was a pathetically weak troll, even for you.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #9,750
9/19/01 6:07:33 PM
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Aha! - troll-bashing.. Trolls Unite against this pipsqueak !
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Post #9,760
9/19/01 7:48:46 PM
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Re: Sorry ! But naive opinion of the Taliban
There are lots of people in Miami who claim to hate Cuban communism. There have been a lot more in Cuba who still regard Castro & Communism as inspired - so who do you want to believe ???.
The Taliban were the faction that finally united Afghanistan - they are Afghans but have a about 1/3 of their forces who are Pakistanis and other Islamics.
So what is the difference between Pakistan & Afghanistan. Well 150 years ago there was *no* difference - it was Britain who created the border & they did that after suffering one of their greatest military humiliations at the hands of the tribal warriors of those regions. Just over 100 years ago Britain sent an army into what is now Afghanistan in an attempt to set up protection for the northern border of 'India' from the warrior tribesmen. They overthrew the leadership in the Kabul region but the son of the overthrown leader along with a mob of Afghans attacked & killed the British commissioner for the area. Britain had 4,500 troops & approx 12,000 non combatants incl wives & children. In a very ugly situation the British negotiated to remove their garrison & move back to India. Only 1 person is known to have walked out of the Khyber pass to tell the tale. Since then other countries have also learned that these are a tough people.
The Taliban *are* not thugs who invaded Afghanistan, that view is as naive as the British & Russian belief that they could control Afghanistan. The Taliban was one faction fighting as mujihadeen & after the Russians pulled out the people who took over fell on each other (tribal differences). The Taliban faction were mostly younger people who had been at the Talibs or religious schools & their leaders garnered the most support from Afghans & also have managed to unify Afghanistan in a way no other faction did. Of course the fighting disrupted lives but the Taliban brought the most order. They of course introduced Sharia law & we don't like that & neither did *some* Afghans.
I don't like the Taliban & their religious ways any more that I did the Ayatolla of Iran - but Iran is moderating after a number of years of extreme behaviour. In time so will Afghanistan.
The heart of the issue here is if the Taliban are guilty of actively protecting terrorists - if so they have to be encouraged to stop the practice. But if the US wants to attack the Taliban, it needs to have a lot better strategies than those it exercised in Somalia or what the Russians tried in Afghanistan. I am hoping that the US well understands this and will prove creative and maintain the moral high ground. But if the US attitude was rooted in the belief that the Taliban are unpopular thugs then god help those who might have to go there.
Doug Marker
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Post #9,799
9/20/01 1:26:47 AM
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The Taliban is not our enemy.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Terrorism is the world's enemy.
The distinction is important.
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Post #9,812
9/20/01 7:02:13 AM
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Yes, they are.
We have declared them such by targetting not only the terrorists...but those who harbor them.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #9,823
9/20/01 9:37:24 AM
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Well, they sure as hell ain't our friends.
And they're not acting very neutral, are they?
What's left?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,829
9/20/01 10:35:52 AM
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Clerics: Bin Laden should be asked to leave
In case you haven't heard. (i just read the story on CNN.com)
Unless I'm mistaken, we really don't know that much about the Taliban. Are all of them murderers and involved in terrorism or is it a small fraction of extremists?
Do you know?
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Post #9,830
9/20/01 10:55:23 AM
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Economist story. NY Times story.
[link|http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=789267|Here] is an Economist story. THE Taliban's final edict on the fate of Osama bin Laden was a study in ambiguity. Some 1,000 of Afghanistan's most senior clerics, gathered in a conclave in the capital Kabul, ruled on September 20th that America's most wanted man should be asked to leave their country. In the same breath, they added that any American attack aimed at extracting him by force or punishing Afghanistan for harbouring him would result in a declaration of holy war. Although most observers are still trying to interpret this cryptic formula, the likely upshot is that Mr bin Laden will remain where he is, and America will pursue its plans for war.
The decree was the culimination of a week of dithering. The day before, Mullah Muhammad Omar, the leader of the Taliban and self-styled \ufffdCommander of the Faithful\ufffd, sued for negotiations with America\ufffdonly to be swiftly rebuffed. He and others have suggested that they might hand Mr bin Laden over under various conditions: for a trial in a neutral third country, for example, or before Muslim judges. All the while, they have fulminated against what they perceive as an American quest to destroy Islam. [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/20/international/20CND-PAK.html|Here] is a NY Times story (registration required). "To avoid the current tumult and also future similar suspicions," the 700 members of the high council of clerics said in the edict, or fatwa, they had recommended that Mr. bin Laden leave Afghanistan whenever possible.
Mr. bin Laden should find another place to live, said the shura, which met for two days before reaching its decision.
The council said Muslims should start a holy war if attacks were made against the Taliban's fighters, many of whom are only lightly armed.
"If in the time of an American attack, any Muslims, be they Afghans or non-Afghans, cooperate with the infidels, accomplices or spy, that person also is punishable to death like the foreign invaders," the edict said.
[...]
Specialists on Afghanistan have said that his options in the wake of the clerics' recommendation that he leave the country include taking refuge with his own fighters at numerous camps around the cities of Kandahar and Jalalabad, or slipping across the border into remote regions of northwestern Pakistan.
The specialists say that Mr. bin Laden's Arab followers inside Afghanistan alone number at least 3,000, many of them trained fighters, and that they might resist the clerics' decision with force. The most feared of Mr. bin Laden's units, known as the 055 Brigade, has a reputation for brutality that have made them the most feared of all the units fighting under the Taliban banner inside Afghanistan.
If Mr. bin Laden and his top associates, several of whom are also on the F.B.I.'s wanted list, were to slip into Pakistan, tracking them down might be even more difficult than finding them in Afghanistan.
The terrain in parts of Pakistan's Baluchistan and North-West Frontier provinces includes some of the most inaccessible regions in central Asia, an area of deep valleys and high mountains, with deserts to the southwest. For centuries they have been the strongholds of tribal leaders who obey no law but their own. Many of these tribal leaders have links to the Taliban and to Mr. bin Laden. "...Please don't throw me in that briar patch!" :-( Cheers, Scott.
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Post #9,848
9/20/01 12:04:59 PM
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I don't know whether to feel insulted or...
be embarrassed for you. I mean, really now.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,827
9/20/01 10:08:46 AM
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Re: I suspect the Taliban full well know
that there are terrorist training camps but I wouldn't expect them to admit it.
Personally I don't trust them nor do I believe them but it is my instinct rather than any facts I have. It may well be that they are to be sacrificial pawns in a game of revenge in that they have so few friends (other than some wild relatives in Pakistan).
If the US has chosen to smash the Taliban they don't have to invade to do it but they do want to make sure they wipe them out as failure to do so might invite more problems than a less effectual strike would achieve.
Anyway, forthis aspect of the future I believ the die is cast.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #9,765
9/19/01 8:33:51 PM
9/19/01 9:57:22 PM
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think again
[link|http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/180901/dlfor97.asp|earl] sound like a helpless bunch? thanx, bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White

Edited by boxley
Sept. 19, 2001, 09:57:22 PM EDT
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Post #9,774
9/19/01 9:05:10 PM
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Excise the ["] on the end of link?
Guess we have to call a Pashtun a 'conservative' - nothing new in 5000 years. Unlikely to be swayed by 2000 year-old upstarts, with or without helicopters..
A.
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