Just so.

Post #92,990 by a6l6e6x 3/30/03 1:16:20 AM Reply	Just so. [link\|http://www.geocities.com/shatila1982/sabtim.html\|SABRA AND SHATILA 1982 -- Timeline of the Massacre]. Hmmm bulldozers again. Yep, Israelis had nothing to do with it. Perhaps you want to read about the [link\|http://www.infotrad.clara.co.uk/antiwar/fatefultri.html\|Israeli Liberation of Lebanon], too. One of the true heroes of the war is Dr. Amal Shamma, an American-trained Lebanese-American pediatrician who remained at work in Beirut's Berbir hospital through the worst horrors. o o o She reports that the hospitals were clearly marked with red crosses and that there were no guns nearby, though outside her hospital there was one disabled tank, which was never hit in the shellings that reduced the hospital to a first-aid station. On one day, 17 hospitals were shelled. Hers "was shelled repeatedly from August 1 to 12 until everything in it was destroyed." It had been heavily damaged by mid-July, as already noted. Hospital employees stopped at Israeli barricades were told: "We shelled your hospital good enough, didn't we? You treat terrorists there."'30 Recall that this is the testimony of a doctor at a Lebanese hospital, one of those liberated by the Israeli forces, according to official doctrine. Nice guys. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #93,030 by bluke 3/30/03 8:21:35 AM 3/30/03 9:25:35 AM Reply	All depends who you ask Whatever happened to the "massacre" in Jenin? Even human rights groups (Human Rights Watch and others) that are very anti-Israel agree that no such massacre took place. Yet, talk to Palestinians and they will tell you all kinds of stories about a massacre in Jenin. Arafat's wife accused Israel of poisoning the water. The Egyptian press has accused Israel of spreading AIDS. The stories in Lebanon are more of the same. This is the same Arab culture of make believe that believes that they won both the Yom Kippur war and the fits Gulf War. I guarantee that in the near future there will be Iraqi eyewitnesses swearing that American troops attacked clearly marked hospitals, and of course there were never any combatants there. Events in Iraq today expose the lies from 20 years ago. Just as today Iraq is using hospitals to store weapons and to base troops, the PLO did the same 20 odd years ago. In fact, we don't need to go to Iraq. The Palestinians have been using ambulances in the West Bank and Gaza to transport suicide bombers and weapons. The same type of Arab sources that you quote about Sabra and Shatilla also believe that the holocaust did not take place. In fact, the West's new darling, Abu Mazen the Palestinian PM, wrote a doctoral thesis about it, how there never was a holocaust (see [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=93031\|here]). Do you believe that the holocaust took place? The people who are peddling these stories that you are quoting about massacres, etc. are the same people peddling holocaust denial. Edited by bluke March 30, 2003, 08:46:55 AM EST Edited by bluke March 30, 2003, 09:25:35 AM EST Expand All History
Post #93,086 by a6l6e6x 3/30/03 2:29:23 PM Reply	Re: Do you believe that the holocaust took place? I am a witness to it, bluke! Not that I understood what was happening at my age. I was in a concentration camp and well remember the double row of electrified barbed wire fences on curved concrete poles and guards with dogs. I am lucky that the family got "sorted out" and put on a slave labor farm in Germany. Only my infant brother died. I am lucky to be alive. So you will never see me deny those Nazi atrocities. Now, do you see the slow motion holocaust of the Palestinian Arabs from the creation of Israel forward? And, I believe it to be slow motion only because the world is watching and not all Jews in Israel are inhumane and have furgotten how it is to be on the receiving end. It is proceeding nonetheless. Now show me where I had said there was a massacre in Jenin? There were Israeli atrocities to be sure. Bulldozing buildings on women, children, and cripples comes to mind. Maximizing "collateral damage" to keep the Palestinians provoked is an obvious goal. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #93,184 by bluke 3/31/03 9:50:45 AM Reply	Then how can you support holocaust deniers ??? The Arabs today (especially the Palestinians) are the biggest Holocaust deniers today (see for example this [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=93031\|post]). Mein Kampf, is a bestseller in Ramallah, Gaza, Damascus and Cairo (see [link\|http://www.freeman.org/m_online/oct99/meinkampf.htm\|here] for example. They deny the holocaust, yet you believe what they are saying?
Post #93,186 by jake123 3/31/03 9:54:01 AM Reply	Maybe he doesn't have to believe the Palestinians to believe that Israel is engaged in a "slow motion holocaust" of same. There are a lot of people who see the actions of Israel as ethnic cleansing at best who are neither Palestinian nor holocaust deniers. You've got to remember, binary logic doesn't accurately describe an analog world. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #93,187 by boxley 3/31/03 9:56:10 AM Reply	bluke I know alex personally he cant stand the injustice he perceives is being meted out by the jews to the palestinians. He does not suggest that Israel has no right to exist. He believes (wrongly in my opinion) that Israel should be a secular state with both arabs and jews having the vote (which is the current case) but also thinks the arab right to return should be enforced and them having the vote also which would mean anhilation of jews in Israel. Wrong headed but not driven by prejuidice. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #93,291 by a6l6e6x 3/31/03 4:13:44 PM Reply	Thanks, Box! I think? :) Accurate, except for the "wrong headed" part. :) To me, a democracy that does not have the separation of "church" and state is not a democracy. A religion related state has a coercive force on its citizens and corrosive effect on their individual rights. It leads to no good. (I fear the current trend here in the US.) I do not share Box's pessimism about Palestinians, Arabs, or Muslims in general. I look at the 25 centuries of prosperous Jewish life in Baghdad (until Zionist atrocities in Palestine) and in Tunisia to this very day (with exception of recent al Qaeda incident) and I believe that peaceful coexistence is possible. There are and always will be extremists and bigots that will test us. Besides, Europeans have been far worse to the Jews than the Muslims have. I am not anti-Semitic in the least. Only last week, my wife and I were visited by our lifetime (i.e. since 1966) dear Jewish friends from NY. Together we have watched each others children grow and now our grandchildren grow. Together we have schlepped around several countries in Western Europe, cruised to many of the Mediterranean and Caribbean ports and of course drove to many places in Canada and the US. We see each other once or twice a year. In college and by choice, I had a Jewish roommate in the dorm. Having been in a Nazi concentration camp and slave labor farm, having been in a UN refuge camp for almost 5 years (there being no home (i.e. Ukraine under Communist control) to go to), becoming an immigrant to the US and having lived and worked as a child of a sharecropper on a tobacco farm in Charles County, Maryland for a couple seasons, having lived in the Lower East Side slums of NYC, gives me a peculiar perspective on life. For one thing, injustice is damn easy to spot. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #93,388 by boxley 3/31/03 11:55:29 PM Reply	ROFL! when was the last time you read the PA constitution It will be an Islamic state. According to Hamas PAlestine will comprise all of palestine including Israel under sharia laws. So its ok for muslims to have a religious government but not OK for Jews to have a secular government protecting the Jews so only Jews can decide who kills the Jews. The party that drew more votes than labour last time was the shineu a party based on secular only principles. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #93,557 by a6l6e6x 4/1/03 4:28:56 PM Reply	Hamas, like IDF, are terrorists. Same mold. Watch what they do, not what they say. Here's a link about [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2115001.stm\|Palestinian Constitution] and [link\|http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20030104-010945-9942r.htm\|another]. There is no mention of Israel in the draft constitution I have seen. I can't say I like their constitution since they are not proposing a truly secular government and protecting only monotheistic religions. Israel: [link\|http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/hrisrael01.html\|There is no Constitution] and indeed if you read this Israeli is a [link\|http://www.geocities.com/stop_abuse.geo/DePublic.htm\|fake democracy]. From the first (Israeli advocacy!) link: The Government made little headway in reducing institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against Israel's Arab citizens, who constitute approximately 20 percent of the population but do not share fully the rights provided to, and obligations imposed on, the country's Jewish citizens. Apparently par for the course in that part of the fscked-up world. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #93,579 by boxley 4/1/03 5:18:29 PM 4/1/03 10:56:55 PM Reply	try this one alex fixed url islamic state with sharia eforcement is ok but Jewish state is not? [link\|http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/watch/Peacewatch/peacewatch2002/385.htm\|http://www.washingto...watch2002/385.htm] However, in terms of at least one key civil liberties issue -- the relationship between religion and state -- the constitution does take a step backward from the Basic Law. For example, not only is Islam deemed the official religion of the state (as is the case in the Basic Law), but "principles of Islamic Sharia [Islamic law] are a primary source for legislation" (Draft Constitution, Article 7). Elsewhere, the draft paints the issue of women's rights in a distinctly Islamist hue: women, it states, "have rights and duties as guaranteed by Sharia and established in law" (Draft Constitution, Article 63). This creeping Islamization should be a special cause of concern to U.S. officials both in terms of civil liberties in a future Palestine as well as in terms of its impact on larger political and strategic issues. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths Edited by boxley April 1, 2003, 10:56:55 PM EST Expand All History
Post #93,584 by a6l6e6x 4/1/03 5:32:36 PM Reply	Well, it is a draft from last year. One can hope things will improve as it progresses. I'm not betting on it. It's looking like the mirror image of Israel, if it had a constitution. Abraham should have been smitten as a child. :) OT: fix your link by deleting chars past .htm at end of URL Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #93,653 by boxley 4/1/03 10:58:35 PM Reply	xactly so if it is what they want, the jews can have their choice, and the sqabble rests on whose dirt is run by whom. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #93,665 by a6l6e6x 4/2/03 12:51:16 AM Reply	And both cultures will stay medieval. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #93,676 by Ashton 4/2/03 3:42:53 AM Reply	I keep tryin ta tell ya - THAT's the destination - where digital logic takes humans, when they 'think' like machines. Like the Pres. and his religio-claque: their delusions of democracy-lovin, US-flag-wavin Iraqis (with memories so short - they'd forget that Bushie's Daddy screwed them Royally!) They are in a machine feedback loop and human pride counters human reason, because there AIN'T no Gandhiji to break the cycle this time, just stimulus/response. Think steam engine with centrifugal-ball governor. They're fucked. Til some BIG Shock occurs. Ashton
Post #93,708 by boxley 4/2/03 9:22:06 AM Reply	its their culture.Neither of us HAVE to live there will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #93,442 by bluke 4/1/03 2:32:09 AM Reply	I do not share Box's pessimism about Palestinians, Arabs ... Why not? Which Arab state is a beacon of freedom? Saudia Arabia, Syria, Libya, Egypt, etc. Can you show me 1 example of a democratic free state. The Arab states are some of the most unfree places in the world. You are living in a dream world.
Post #93,033 by boxley 3/30/03 9:09:07 AM Reply	just like the red cross today in PA hands doesnt harbor gunmen and the first place the little cocksuckers run to is hospitals as evidenced numerous times in the past 2 years. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #93,035 by bluke 3/30/03 9:19:10 AM Reply	Don't confuse him with facts very soon they will be making up the same stories in Iraq
Post #93,087 by a6l6e6x 3/30/03 2:35:28 PM Reply	How is that different from IDF in Israeli hospital? In fact, I bet much of the staff is armed. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #93,089 by bluke 3/30/03 2:46:23 PM 3/31/03 9:55:01 AM Reply	Don't be dense You know what he meant, the Palestinians are posting armed men in hospitals, ambulances etc. and are shooting from there. You know as well as I do that Israel (and the US) do not stoop to such lows. And no most of the staff is not armed Edited by bluke March 31, 2003, 09:55:01 AM EST Expand All History

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