Post #92,372
3/28/03 2:17:45 AM
3/28/03 7:05:46 AM
|
Thanks for chance to debate this ...
Firstly I appreciate that you have responded & your POV is an acceptable one as a starting point ...
>>
Is there a single period in known Chinese history that wasn't one or more of the following:
* Fractured into multiple opposing regimes
* Controlled by a brutal dictator or emperor
* Under an oppressive occupation force
* Controlled by a brutal totalitarian concept such as legalism or communism
* Fraught with civil wars or continual rebellions
* Majority of people living in poverty while those in power had lavish cities and palaces
* Mass executions commonplace
* Lasted more than 150 years before decaying into corruption or being invaded
<<
Is there a single period in known Chinese history that wasn't one or more of the following: What do you mean by period ??? - is 200 years of peace & properity a 'period' in your definition. Is multiple 100 year periods good enough ???
Fractured into multiple opposing regimes ??? When ???
Controlled by a brutal dictator or emperor ??? Brutal, in what context ??? (all rulers in almost all civilizations between 1000bc to 1700ad 'controlled' their subjects. This statement really means nothing).
Controlled by a brutal totalitarian concept (Do you mean Mao ???, if not then which ruler ??? and brutality in what context ???)
Majority of people living in poverty Sorry but this is pure crap unless you mean 19th century China as it was transitioning from feudal, to occupied to Communism). If so that is one tiny period in a great & illustrious history spanning 2 millenia !!!
A SUMMARY OF CHINA'S HISTORY
(sse additional notes at bottom)
Re for brutal,in all civilizations of the same eras and earlier, the conquerers all could be called brutal at the time they were conquering, so this statement seems pointless unless you are trying to compare ancient civilizations with modern ones ???, if so why & what point are you trying to make ???.
So, comparing past history with modern history: I am not sure what you are comparing China to - today or 1000 years ago or 2000 etc:.
But, as in any 3000 year old country/region there were periods when power shifted and the focus went from military adjustment to periods of artistic progress & enlightenment. China is recognised as one of the oldest & longest surviving stable 'countries/civilizations' with comparatively stable borders that have only shifted modestly in the past 1800 years.
First Chinese Dynasty:
QIN Dynasty (pron chin): Emperor Qin's dynasty was the acknowledged earliest (220 BC). Emperor Qin took China from a group of neibouring & often warring states (kingdoms), into a greater empire (multiple kings --> one Emperor). Qin conquered the other immediate states to found what is essentially 'China'. Qin was believed to be the Emperor who created the terracotta army found in Xian & massive in scale, for his tomb. He ruled at a time when iron was being explored and was in plentiful supply & this gave him a military edge. Yes he was ruthless (as each of the founders of a new dynasty was at its commencement), His reign was tough but the country was unified and trade & commerce grew. After his death this empire fell apart to be followed by a period of turbulence until the next power clique could cement power & these were the Han Chinese.
Modern China is 90% Han peoples although they talk of 55 minorities. The start of the Han period is important in terms of the makeup of modern China. The Han perfected the administrative model for China that most subsequent dynasties adopted. This is not unlike what happened in many other parts of the world & other civilisations. (i.e. Alfred the Great (England) in the 10th century, began an administrative model that was the basis for modern England. The next major improvement there were introduced by the Normans in the 11th century & improved little until the 17th century).
At the time of the Han dynasty, china was already 60 million people - a massive population & one that could only progress when there was some stability. The Han dynasty provided over 200 years of relative peace to the population.
In about the 4th century, the Han dynasty began to decline & the country split into 3 kingdoms. The Han Chinese had previously only occuipied down to the middle of modern China but by the 4th century had moved much further south & by sheer numbers, absorbed the tribes & peoples in the region that is now between Guilin (pron: gweylin) and SE Asia (Vietnam & Thailand & Burma). Part of the reason for the shift south was that during this same period Mongol & Turkic peoples were pushing down from the north creating friction at the intersection.
6th to 7th Centuries:
SUI Dynasty (pron Soo-a-e): Ruled China from the north & composed of mixed Han &
7th to 10th Century
TANG Dynasty: This is a period of considerable stability and when great advances & discoveries were made. It was brought down by a rebellion that then led to the next dynasty but the change to the new rulers occured over about 100 years as the Tang's Empire crumbled.
12th to 13th Centuries:
SONG Dynasty (pron soong): Another great dynasty that ushered in further stability & greatness to China. The population had almost double since the Qin dynasty and the arts again flourished. Agricultural advances meant better crops, more food, more trade. Printing press was invented. This dynasty became the way of life that all subsequent dynastys followed. The Mandarin class of scholars became the ruling elite who were the backbone of Chines administration and power. The downside of their stability was that Norther China was again taken over by invaders (Turkic & Mongol) & the dynasty moved their capital further south. This was another period of Han southerly migration.
12th to 14th Centuries:
YUAN Dynasty (pron Yoo-ahn): This was the 1st dynasty to be headed by the mongol invaders. During this period. China still flourished and it was when Marco Polo arrived and when Jesuit priests visted (some of whom stayed to work for the Emperor which led to some great advances in science and arts.
Kubali Khan was a Yuan Emperor.
14th to 17th Centuries:
MING Dynasty: (Ming the merciless <grin>): Another period of great advances but also the period that laid the foundation for later exploitation by the industrialized west.
In the Ming period. China built a great fleet of ships to explore the world. These were massive ships that were 450ft long & 150ft abeam (about as big as a small aircraft carrier). Three great ships of these dimensions & 100s (approx 3-400) smaller vessels were built & the now famous admiral Cheng He (Zheng He) was sent by the emperor to explore.
Admiral Cheung brought back plants & animals from SE Asia, India & Arabia. Some believed that one sub fleet reached USA & went inland as far as Pensylvania.
The Ming moved the capitol from Nanjing (Nanking) back to Beijing (Peking). And reinforced & extended the Great Wall. A Ming Emperor also accepted trade with the Portugese & offered them a swampy peninsular now called Macau (Macao).
But to their discredit. The Ming Mandarins of the 15th century, after Cheung He had sailed the oceans for 30 years in his massive fleet (impressive even by today's navies standards), mothballed the fleet, poo-poo'ed Cheung He's discoveries & decided to close China to all but regular trade partners (exeption being the Portugese). This isolation (later repeated by the Japanese in 18th century) was the begining of modern China's troubles as it began the isolation from western advances & industrialization & that led to the collapse of China in the next & last dynastic period (Qing)
17th to 20th centuries:
QING or MANCHU Dynasty (pron Ching): These were basically mongol rulers & while they kept China's wealth and stbility going for about 150 years, the country became stagnant & the west by way of Germany US UK & France, invaded & forced the arrogant Qing Emperor to grant massive concessions & open China up (to blatant exploitation by way of the opium trade). China then feall to warlordism & Japanese invasion in the 1930s. Japan planned to annex a large part of Nortern China and had already done so with Korea.
NOTES
The Chinese people did pretty well for themselves and only went through bad timnes during power shifts brough on by invasions from the north or when one Dynasty was overthrown but almost in every case, stability returned and allowed China to grow into an extraordinary great empire where the people were generally well fed apart from those poor sods who were coopted to build & extend the great wall (paid & fed all the same), or who had to serve in armies in the deserted north, protecting the Silk road from bandits & invaders.
Your awareness of China's history betrays a very 20th century perspective fed perhaps by anti-communism (red peril, Korean war memories) & possibly a bit of xenophobia. Apart from the tumultuous years from the last Ming Emperor through to Mao Tse Dong (who rightly stamped out the Mandarin class that got China in its mess), China was one of the worlds great civilizations & is considered to be about to cahieve a new greatness as it adapts to a modern politicalsystem & infrastructure. By end of 2003 they expet to have their 1st men in space orbit.
Thanks
Doug Marker
In brief China remained much the same except for two great upheavals, both initiated by Nothern tribes (
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Edited by dmarker
March 28, 2003, 02:22:55 AM EST
Thanks for chance to debate this ...
Firstly I appreciate that you have responded & your POV is an acceptable one as a starting point ...
>>
Is there a single period in known Chinese history that wasn't one or more of the following:
* Fractured into multiple opposing regimes
* Controlled by a brutal dictator or emperor
* Under an oppressive occupation force
* Controlled by a brutal totalitarian concept such as legalism or communism
* Fraught with civil wars or continual rebellions
* Majority of people living in poverty while those in power had lavish cities and palaces
* Mass executions commonplace
* Lasted more than 150 years before decaying into corruption or being invaded
<<
Fractured into multiple opposing regimes ??? When ???
Controlled by a brutal dictator or emperor ??? Brutal, in what context ??? (all rulers in almost all civilizations between 1000bc to 1700ad 'controlled' their subjects. This statement really means nothing).
Controlled by a brutal totalitarian concept (Do you mean Mao ???, if not then which ruler ??? and brutality in what context ???)
Majority of people living in poverty Sorry but this is pure crap unless you mean 19th century China as it was transitioning from feudal, to occupied to Communism). If so that is one tiny period in a great & illustrious history spanning 2 millenia !!!
A SUMMARY OF CHINA'S HISTORY
(sse additional notes at bottom)
Re for brutal,in all civilizations of the same eras and earlier, the conquers all could be called brutal at the time they were conquering, so this statement seems pointless unless you are trying to compare ancient civilizations with modern ones ???, if so why & what point are you trying to make ???.
So, comparing past history with modern history: I am not sure what you are comparing China to - today or 1000 years ago or 2000 etc:.
But, as in any 3000 year old country/region there were periods when power shifted and the focus went from military adjustment to periods of artistic progress & enlightenment. China is recognised as one of the oldest & longest surviving stable 'countries/civilizations' with comparatively stable borders that have only shifted modestly in the past 1800 years.
First Chinese Dynasty:
QIN Dynasty (pron chin): Emperor Qin's dynasty was the acknowledged earliest (220 BC). Emperor Qin took China from a group of neibouring & often warring states (kingdoms), into a greater empire (multiple kings --> one Emperor). Qin conquered the other immediate states to found what is essentially 'China'. Qin was believed to be the Emperor who created the terracotta army found in Xian & massive in scale, for his tomb. He ruled at a time when iron was being explored and was in plentiful supply & this gave him a military edge. Yes he was ruthless (as each of the founders of a new dynasty was at its commencement), His reign was tough but the country was unified and trade & commerce grew. After his death this empire fell apart to be followed by a period of turbulence until the next power clique could cement power & these were the Han Chinese.
Modern China is 90% Han peoples although they talk of 55 minorities. The start of the Han period is important in terms of the makeup of modern China. The Han perfected the administrative model for China that most subsequent dynasties adopted. This is not unlike what happened in many other parts of the world & other civilisations. (i.e. Alfred the Great (England) in the 10th century, began an administrative model that was the basis for modern England. The next major improvement there were introduced by the Normans in the 11th century & improved little until the 17th century).
At the time of the Han dynasty, china was already 60 million people - a massive population & one that could only progress when there was some stability. The Han dynasty provided over 200 years of relative peace to the population.
In about the 4th century, the Han dynasty began to decline & the country split into 3 kingdoms. The Han Chinese had previously only occuipied down to the middle of modern China but by the 4th century had moved much further south & by sheer numbers, absorbed the tribes & peoples in the region that is now between Guilin (pron: gweylin) and SE Asia (Vietnam & Thailand & Burma). Part of the reason for the shift south was that during this same period Mongol & Turkic peoples were pushing down from the north creating friction at the intersection.
6th to 7th Centuries:
SUI Dynasty (pron Soo-a-e): Ruled China from the north & composed of mixed Han &
7th to 10th Century
TANG Dynasty: This is a period of considerable stability and when great advances & discoveries were made. It was brought down by a rebellion that then led to the next dynasty but the change to the new rulers occured over about 100 years as the Tang's Empire crumbled.
12th to 13th Centuries:
SONG Dynasty (pron soong): Another great dynasty that ushered in further stability & greatness to China. The population had almost double since the Qin dynasty and the arts again flourished. Agricultural advances meant better crops, more food, more trade. Printing press was invented. This dynasty became the way of life that all subsequent dynastys followed. The Mandarin class of scholars became the ruling elite who were the backbone of Chines administration and power. The downside of their stability was that Norther China was again taken over by invaders (Turkic & Mongol) & the dynasty moved their capital further south. This was another period of Han southerly migration.
12th to 14th Centuries:
YUAN Dynasty (pron Yoo-ahn): This was the 1st dynasty to be headed by the mongol invaders. During this period. China still flourished and it was when Marco Polo arrived and when Jesuit priests visted (some of whom stayed to work for the Emperor which led to some great advances in science and arts.
Kubali Khan was a Yuan Emperor.
14th to 17th Centuries:
MING Dynasty: (Ming the merciless <grin>): Another period of great advances but also the period that laid the foundation for later exploitation by the industrialized west.
In the Ming period. China built a great fleet of ships to explore the world. These were massive ships that were 450ft long & 150ft abeam (about as big as a small aircraft carrier). Three great ships of these dimensions & 100s (approx 3-400) smaller vessels were built & the now famous admiral Cheng He (Zheng He) was sent by the emperor to explore.
Admiral Cheung brought back plants & animals from SE Asia, India & Arabia. Some believed that one sub fleet reached USA & went inland as far as Pensylvania.
The Ming moved the capitol from Nanjing (Nanking) back to Beijing (Peking). And reinforced & extended the Great Wall. A Ming Emperor also accepted trade with the Portugese & offered them a swampy peninsular now called Macau (Macao).
But to their discredit. The Ming Mandarins of the 14th century, after Cheung He had sailed the oceans in his massive fleet (impressive even by today's navies standards), mothballed the fleet, poo-poo'ed Cheung He's discoveries & decided to close China to all but regular trade partners (exeption being the Portugese). This isolation (later repeated by the Japanese in 18th century). Isolated China form wester advances & industrialization & that led to the collapse of China as it was up to this period.
NOTES
The Chinese people did pretty well for themselves and only went through bad timnes during power shifts brough on by invasions from the north or when one Dynasty was overthrown but almost in every case, stability returned and allowed China to grow into an extraordinary great empire where the people were generally well fed apart from those poor sods who were coopted to build & extend the great wall (paid & fed all the same), or who had to serve in armies in the deserted north, protecting the Silk road from bandits & invaders.
Your awareness of China's history betrays a very 20th century perspective fed perhaps by anti-communism (red peril, Korean war memories) & possibly a bit of xenophobia. Apart from the tumultuous years from the last Ming Emperor through to Mao Tse Dong (who rightly stamped out the Mandarin class that got China in its mess), China was one of the worlds great civilizations & is considered to be about to cahieve a new greatness as it adapts to a modern politicalsystem & infrastructure. By end of 2003 they expet to have their 1st men in space orbit.
Thanks
Doug Marker
In brief China remained much the same except for two great upheavals, both initiated by Nothern tribes (
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Edited by dmarker
March 28, 2003, 02:26:32 AM EST
Thanks for chance to debate this ...
Firstly I appreciate that you have responded & your POV is an acceptable one as a starting point ...
>>
Is there a single period in known Chinese history that wasn't one or more of the following:
* Fractured into multiple opposing regimes
* Controlled by a brutal dictator or emperor
* Under an oppressive occupation force
* Controlled by a brutal totalitarian concept such as legalism or communism
* Fraught with civil wars or continual rebellions
* Majority of people living in poverty while those in power had lavish cities and palaces
* Mass executions commonplace
* Lasted more than 150 years before decaying into corruption or being invaded
<<
Fractured into multiple opposing regimes ??? When ???
Controlled by a brutal dictator or emperor ??? Brutal, in what context ??? (all rulers in almost all civilizations between 1000bc to 1700ad 'controlled' their subjects. This statement really means nothing).
Controlled by a brutal totalitarian concept (Do you mean Mao ???, if not then which ruler ??? and brutality in what context ???)
Majority of people living in poverty Sorry but this is pure crap unless you mean 19th century China as it was transitioning from feudal, to occupied to Communism). If so that is one tiny period in a great & illustrious history spanning 2 millenia !!!
A SUMMARY OF CHINA'S HISTORY
(sse additional notes at bottom)
Re for brutal,in all civilizations of the same eras and earlier, the conquers all could be called brutal at the time they were conquering, so this statement seems pointless unless you are trying to compare ancient civilizations with modern ones ???, if so why & what point are you trying to make ???.
So, comparing past history with modern history: I am not sure what you are comparing China to - today or 1000 years ago or 2000 etc:.
But, as in any 3000 year old country/region there were periods when power shifted and the focus went from military adjustment to periods of artistic progress & enlightenment. China is recognised as one of the oldest & longest surviving stable 'countries/civilizations' with comparatively stable borders that have only shifted modestly in the past 1800 years.
First Chinese Dynasty:
QIN Dynasty (pron chin): Emperor Qin's dynasty was the acknowledged earliest (220 BC). Emperor Qin took China from a group of neibouring & often warring states (kingdoms), into a greater empire (multiple kings --> one Emperor). Qin conquered the other immediate states to found what is essentially 'China'. Qin was believed to be the Emperor who created the terracotta army found in Xian & massive in scale, for his tomb. He ruled at a time when iron was being explored and was in plentiful supply & this gave him a military edge. Yes he was ruthless (as each of the founders of a new dynasty was at its commencement), His reign was tough but the country was unified and trade & commerce grew. After his death this empire fell apart to be followed by a period of turbulence until the next power clique could cement power & these were the Han Chinese.
Modern China is 90% Han peoples although they talk of 55 minorities. The start of the Han period is important in terms of the makeup of modern China. The Han perfected the administrative model for China that most subsequent dynasties adopted. This is not unlike what happened in many other parts of the world & other civilisations. (i.e. Alfred the Great (England) in the 10th century, began an administrative model that was the basis for modern England. The next major improvement there were introduced by the Normans in the 11th century & improved little until the 17th century).
At the time of the Han dynasty, china was already 60 million people - a massive population & one that could only progress when there was some stability. The Han dynasty provided over 200 years of relative peace to the population.
In about the 4th century, the Han dynasty began to decline & the country split into 3 kingdoms. The Han Chinese had previously only occuipied down to the middle of modern China but by the 4th century had moved much further south & by sheer numbers, absorbed the tribes & peoples in the region that is now between Guilin (pron: gweylin) and SE Asia (Vietnam & Thailand & Burma). Part of the reason for the shift south was that during this same period Mongol & Turkic peoples were pushing down from the north creating friction at the intersection.
6th to 7th Centuries:
SUI Dynasty (pron Soo-a-e): Ruled China from the north & composed of mixed Han &
7th to 10th Century
TANG Dynasty: This is a period of considerable stability and when great advances & discoveries were made. It was brought down by a rebellion that then led to the next dynasty but the change to the new rulers occured over about 100 years as the Tang's Empire crumbled.
12th to 13th Centuries:
SONG Dynasty (pron soong): Another great dynasty that ushered in further stability & greatness to China. The population had almost double since the Qin dynasty and the arts again flourished. Agricultural advances meant better crops, more food, more trade. Printing press was invented. This dynasty became the way of life that all subsequent dynastys followed. The Mandarin class of scholars became the ruling elite who were the backbone of Chines administration and power. The downside of their stability was that Norther China was again taken over by invaders (Turkic & Mongol) & the dynasty moved their capital further south. This was another period of Han southerly migration.
12th to 14th Centuries:
YUAN Dynasty (pron Yoo-ahn): This was the 1st dynasty to be headed by the mongol invaders. During this period. China still flourished and it was when Marco Polo arrived and when Jesuit priests visted (some of whom stayed to work for the Emperor which led to some great advances in science and arts.
Kubali Khan was a Yuan Emperor.
14th to 17th Centuries:
MING Dynasty: (Ming the merciless <grin>): Another period of great advances but also the period that laid the foundation for later exploitation by the industrialized west.
In the Ming period. China built a great fleet of ships to explore the world. These were massive ships that were 450ft long & 150ft abeam (about as big as a small aircraft carrier). Three great ships of these dimensions & 100s (approx 3-400) smaller vessels were built & the now famous admiral Cheng He (Zheng He) was sent by the emperor to explore.
Admiral Cheung brought back plants & animals from SE Asia, India & Arabia. Some believed that one sub fleet reached USA & went inland as far as Pensylvania.
The Ming moved the capitol from Nanjing (Nanking) back to Beijing (Peking). And reinforced & extended the Great Wall. A Ming Emperor also accepted trade with the Portugese & offered them a swampy peninsular now called Macau (Macao).
But to their discredit. The Ming Mandarins of the 14th century, after Cheung He had sailed the oceans in his massive fleet (impressive even by today's navies standards), mothballed the fleet, poo-poo'ed Cheung He's discoveries & decided to close China to all but regular trade partners (exeption being the Portugese). This isolation (later repeated by the Japanese in 18th century). Isolated China form wester advances & industrialization & that led to the collapse of China as it was up to this period.
NOTES
The Chinese people did pretty well for themselves and only went through bad timnes during power shifts brough on by invasions from the north or when one Dynasty was overthrown but almost in every case, stability returned and allowed China to grow into an extraordinary great empire where the people were generally well fed apart from those poor sods who were coopted to build & extend the great wall (paid & fed all the same), or who had to serve in armies in the deserted north, protecting the Silk road from bandits & invaders.
Your awareness of China's history betrays a very 20th century perspective fed perhaps by anti-communism (red peril, Korean war memories) & possibly a bit of xenophobia. Apart from the tumultuous years from the last Ming Emperor through to Mao Tse Dong (who rightly stamped out the Mandarin class that got China in its mess), China was one of the worlds great civilizations & is considered to be about to cahieve a new greatness as it adapts to a modern politicalsystem & infrastructure. By end of 2003 they expet to have their 1st men in space orbit.
Thanks
Doug Marker
In brief China remained much the same except for two great upheavals, both initiated by Nothern tribes (
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Edited by dmarker
March 28, 2003, 02:34:38 AM EST
Thanks for chance to debate this ...
Firstly I appreciate that you have responded & your POV is an acceptable one as a starting point ...
>>
Is there a single period in known Chinese history that wasn't one or more of the following:
* Fractured into multiple opposing regimes
* Controlled by a brutal dictator or emperor
* Under an oppressive occupation force
* Controlled by a brutal totalitarian concept such as legalism or communism
* Fraught with civil wars or continual rebellions
* Majority of people living in poverty while those in power had lavish cities and palaces
* Mass executions commonplace
* Lasted more than 150 years before decaying into corruption or being invaded
<<
Fractured into multiple opposing regimes ??? When ???
Controlled by a brutal dictator or emperor ??? Brutal, in what context ??? (all rulers in almost all civilizations between 1000bc to 1700ad 'controlled' their subjects. This statement really means nothing).
Controlled by a brutal totalitarian concept (Do you mean Mao ???, if not then which ruler ??? and brutality in what context ???)
Majority of people living in poverty Sorry but this is pure crap unless you mean 19th century China as it was transitioning from feudal, to occupied to Communism). If so that is one tiny period in a great & illustrious history spanning 2 millenia !!!
A SUMMARY OF CHINA'S HISTORY
(sse additional notes at bottom)
Re for brutal,in all civilizations of the same eras and earlier, the conquers all could be called brutal at the time they were conquering, so this statement seems pointless unless you are trying to compare ancient civilizations with modern ones ???, if so why & what point are you trying to make ???.
So, comparing past history with modern history: I am not sure what you are comparing China to - today or 1000 years ago or 2000 etc:.
But, as in any 3000 year old country/region there were periods when power shifted and the focus went from military adjustment to periods of artistic progress & enlightenment. China is recognised as one of the oldest & longest surviving stable 'countries/civilizations' with comparatively stable borders that have only shifted modestly in the past 1800 years.
First Chinese Dynasty:
QIN Dynasty (pron chin): Emperor Qin's dynasty was the acknowledged earliest (220 BC). Emperor Qin took China from a group of neibouring & often warring states (kingdoms), into a greater empire (multiple kings --> one Emperor). Qin conquered the other immediate states to found what is essentially 'China'. Qin was believed to be the Emperor who created the terracotta army found in Xian & massive in scale, for his tomb. He ruled at a time when iron was being explored and was in plentiful supply & this gave him a military edge. Yes he was ruthless (as each of the founders of a new dynasty was at its commencement), His reign was tough but the country was unified and trade & commerce grew. After his death this empire fell apart to be followed by a period of turbulence until the next power clique could cement power & these were the Han Chinese.
Modern China is 90% Han peoples although they talk of 55 minorities. The start of the Han period is important in terms of the makeup of modern China. The Han perfected the administrative model for China that most subsequent dynasties adopted. This is not unlike what happened in many other parts of the world & other civilisations. (i.e. Alfred the Great (England) in the 10th century, began an administrative model that was the basis for modern England. The next major improvement there were introduced by the Normans in the 11th century & improved little until the 17th century).
At the time of the Han dynasty, china was already 60 million people - a massive population & one that could only progress when there was some stability. The Han dynasty provided over 200 years of relative peace to the population.
In about the 4th century, the Han dynasty began to decline & the country split into 3 kingdoms. The Han Chinese had previously only occuipied down to the middle of modern China but by the 4th century had moved much further south & by sheer numbers, absorbed the tribes & peoples in the region that is now between Guilin (pron: gweylin) and SE Asia (Vietnam & Thailand & Burma). Part of the reason for the shift south was that during this same period Mongol & Turkic peoples were pushing down from the north creating friction at the intersection.
6th to 7th Centuries:
SUI Dynasty (pron Soo-a-e): Ruled China from the north & composed of mixed Han &
7th to 10th Century
TANG Dynasty: This is a period of considerable stability and when great advances & discoveries were made. It was brought down by a rebellion that then led to the next dynasty but the change to the new rulers occured over about 100 years as the Tang's Empire crumbled.
12th to 13th Centuries:
SONG Dynasty (pron soong): Another great dynasty that ushered in further stability & greatness to China. The population had almost double since the Qin dynasty and the arts again flourished. Agricultural advances meant better crops, more food, more trade. Printing press was invented. This dynasty became the way of life that all subsequent dynastys followed. The Mandarin class of scholars became the ruling elite who were the backbone of Chines administration and power. The downside of their stability was that Norther China was again taken over by invaders (Turkic & Mongol) & the dynasty moved their capital further south. This was another period of Han southerly migration.
12th to 14th Centuries:
YUAN Dynasty (pron Yoo-ahn): This was the 1st dynasty to be headed by the mongol invaders. During this period. China still flourished and it was when Marco Polo arrived and when Jesuit priests visted (some of whom stayed to work for the Emperor which led to some great advances in science and arts.
Kubali Khan was a Yuan Emperor.
14th to 17th Centuries:
MING Dynasty: (Ming the merciless <grin>): Another period of great advances but also the period that laid the foundation for later exploitation by the industrialized west.
In the Ming period. China built a great fleet of ships to explore the world. These were massive ships that were 450ft long & 150ft abeam (about as big as a small aircraft carrier). Three great ships of these dimensions & 100s (approx 3-400) smaller vessels were built & the now famous admiral Cheng He (Zheng He) was sent by the emperor to explore.
Admiral Cheung brought back plants & animals from SE Asia, India & Arabia. Some believed that one sub fleet reached USA & went inland as far as Pensylvania.
The Ming moved the capitol from Nanjing (Nanking) back to Beijing (Peking). And reinforced & extended the Great Wall. A Ming Emperor also accepted trade with the Portugese & offered them a swampy peninsular now called Macau (Macao).
But to their discredit. The Ming Mandarins of the 15th century, after Cheung He had sailed the oceans for 30 years in his massive fleet (impressive even by today's navies standards), mothballed the fleet, poo-poo'ed Cheung He's discoveries & decided to close China to all but regular trade partners (exeption being the Portugese). This isolation (later repeated by the Japanese in 18th century). Isolated China form wester advances & industrialization & that led to the collapse of China as it was up to this period.
NOTES
The Chinese people did pretty well for themselves and only went through bad timnes during power shifts brough on by invasions from the north or when one Dynasty was overthrown but almost in every case, stability returned and allowed China to grow into an extraordinary great empire where the people were generally well fed apart from those poor sods who were coopted to build & extend the great wall (paid & fed all the same), or who had to serve in armies in the deserted north, protecting the Silk road from bandits & invaders.
Your awareness of China's history betrays a very 20th century perspective fed perhaps by anti-communism (red peril, Korean war memories) & possibly a bit of xenophobia. Apart from the tumultuous years from the last Ming Emperor through to Mao Tse Dong (who rightly stamped out the Mandarin class that got China in its mess), China was one of the worlds great civilizations & is considered to be about to cahieve a new greatness as it adapts to a modern politicalsystem & infrastructure. By end of 2003 they expet to have their 1st men in space orbit.
Thanks
Doug Marker
In brief China remained much the same except for two great upheavals, both initiated by Nothern tribes (
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Edited by dmarker
March 28, 2003, 07:05:46 AM EST
Thanks for chance to debate this ...
Firstly I appreciate that you have responded & your POV is an acceptable one as a starting point ...
>>
Is there a single period in known Chinese history that wasn't one or more of the following:
* Fractured into multiple opposing regimes
* Controlled by a brutal dictator or emperor
* Under an oppressive occupation force
* Controlled by a brutal totalitarian concept such as legalism or communism
* Fraught with civil wars or continual rebellions
* Majority of people living in poverty while those in power had lavish cities and palaces
* Mass executions commonplace
* Lasted more than 150 years before decaying into corruption or being invaded
<<
Fractured into multiple opposing regimes ??? When ???
Controlled by a brutal dictator or emperor ??? Brutal, in what context ??? (all rulers in almost all civilizations between 1000bc to 1700ad 'controlled' their subjects. This statement really means nothing).
Controlled by a brutal totalitarian concept (Do you mean Mao ???, if not then which ruler ??? and brutality in what context ???)
Majority of people living in poverty Sorry but this is pure crap unless you mean 19th century China as it was transitioning from feudal, to occupied to Communism). If so that is one tiny period in a great & illustrious history spanning 2 millenia !!!
A SUMMARY OF CHINA'S HISTORY
(sse additional notes at bottom)
Re for brutal,in all civilizations of the same eras and earlier, the conquers all could be called brutal at the time they were conquering, so this statement seems pointless unless you are trying to compare ancient civilizations with modern ones ???, if so why & what point are you trying to make ???.
So, comparing past history with modern history: I am not sure what you are comparing China to - today or 1000 years ago or 2000 etc:.
But, as in any 3000 year old country/region there were periods when power shifted and the focus went from military adjustment to periods of artistic progress & enlightenment. China is recognised as one of the oldest & longest surviving stable 'countries/civilizations' with comparatively stable borders that have only shifted modestly in the past 1800 years.
First Chinese Dynasty:
QIN Dynasty (pron chin): Emperor Qin's dynasty was the acknowledged earliest (220 BC). Emperor Qin took China from a group of neibouring & often warring states (kingdoms), into a greater empire (multiple kings --> one Emperor). Qin conquered the other immediate states to found what is essentially 'China'. Qin was believed to be the Emperor who created the terracotta army found in Xian & massive in scale, for his tomb. He ruled at a time when iron was being explored and was in plentiful supply & this gave him a military edge. Yes he was ruthless (as each of the founders of a new dynasty was at its commencement), His reign was tough but the country was unified and trade & commerce grew. After his death this empire fell apart to be followed by a period of turbulence until the next power clique could cement power & these were the Han Chinese.
Modern China is 90% Han peoples although they talk of 55 minorities. The start of the Han period is important in terms of the makeup of modern China. The Han perfected the administrative model for China that most subsequent dynasties adopted. This is not unlike what happened in many other parts of the world & other civilisations. (i.e. Alfred the Great (England) in the 10th century, began an administrative model that was the basis for modern England. The next major improvement there were introduced by the Normans in the 11th century & improved little until the 17th century).
At the time of the Han dynasty, china was already 60 million people - a massive population & one that could only progress when there was some stability. The Han dynasty provided over 200 years of relative peace to the population.
In about the 4th century, the Han dynasty began to decline & the country split into 3 kingdoms. The Han Chinese had previously only occuipied down to the middle of modern China but by the 4th century had moved much further south & by sheer numbers, absorbed the tribes & peoples in the region that is now between Guilin (pron: gweylin) and SE Asia (Vietnam & Thailand & Burma). Part of the reason for the shift south was that during this same period Mongol & Turkic peoples were pushing down from the north creating friction at the intersection.
6th to 7th Centuries:
SUI Dynasty (pron Soo-a-e): Ruled China from the north & composed of mixed Han &
7th to 10th Century
TANG Dynasty: This is a period of considerable stability and when great advances & discoveries were made. It was brought down by a rebellion that then led to the next dynasty but the change to the new rulers occured over about 100 years as the Tang's Empire crumbled.
12th to 13th Centuries:
SONG Dynasty (pron soong): Another great dynasty that ushered in further stability & greatness to China. The population had almost double since the Qin dynasty and the arts again flourished. Agricultural advances meant better crops, more food, more trade. Printing press was invented. This dynasty became the way of life that all subsequent dynastys followed. The Mandarin class of scholars became the ruling elite who were the backbone of Chines administration and power. The downside of their stability was that Norther China was again taken over by invaders (Turkic & Mongol) & the dynasty moved their capital further south. This was another period of Han southerly migration.
12th to 14th Centuries:
YUAN Dynasty (pron Yoo-ahn): This was the 1st dynasty to be headed by the mongol invaders. During this period. China still flourished and it was when Marco Polo arrived and when Jesuit priests visted (some of whom stayed to work for the Emperor which led to some great advances in science and arts.
Kubali Khan was a Yuan Emperor.
14th to 17th Centuries:
MING Dynasty: (Ming the merciless <grin>): Another period of great advances but also the period that laid the foundation for later exploitation by the industrialized west.
In the Ming period. China built a great fleet of ships to explore the world. These were massive ships that were 450ft long & 150ft abeam (about as big as a small aircraft carrier). Three great ships of these dimensions & 100s (approx 3-400) smaller vessels were built & the now famous admiral Cheng He (Zheng He) was sent by the emperor to explore.
Admiral Cheung brought back plants & animals from SE Asia, India & Arabia. Some believed that one sub fleet reached USA & went inland as far as Pensylvania.
The Ming moved the capitol from Nanjing (Nanking) back to Beijing (Peking). And reinforced & extended the Great Wall. A Ming Emperor also accepted trade with the Portugese & offered them a swampy peninsular now called Macau (Macao).
But to their discredit. The Ming Mandarins of the 15th century, after Cheung He had sailed the oceans for 30 years in his massive fleet (impressive even by today's navies standards), mothballed the fleet, poo-poo'ed Cheung He's discoveries & decided to close China to all but regular trade partners (exeption being the Portugese). This isolation (later repeated by the Japanese in 18th century) was the begining of modern China's troubles as it began the isolation from western advances & industrialization & that led to the collapse of China in the next & last dynastic period (Qing)
17th to 20th centuries:
QING or MANCHU Dynasty (pron Ching): These were basically mongol rulers & while they kept China's wealth and stbility going for about 150 years, the country became stagnant & the west by way of Germany US UK & France, invaded & forced the arrogant Qing Emperor to grant massive concessions & open China up (to blatant exploitation by way of the opium trade). China then feall to warlordism & Japanese invasion in the 1930s. Japan planned to annex a large part of Nortern China and had already done so with Korea.
NOTES
The Chinese people did pretty well for themselves and only went through bad timnes during power shifts brough on by invasions from the north or when one Dynasty was overthrown but almost in every case, stability returned and allowed China to grow into an extraordinary great empire where the people were generally well fed apart from those poor sods who were coopted to build & extend the great wall (paid & fed all the same), or who had to serve in armies in the deserted north, protecting the Silk road from bandits & invaders.
Your awareness of China's history betrays a very 20th century perspective fed perhaps by anti-communism (red peril, Korean war memories) & possibly a bit of xenophobia. Apart from the tumultuous years from the last Ming Emperor through to Mao Tse Dong (who rightly stamped out the Mandarin class that got China in its mess), China was one of the worlds great civilizations & is considered to be about to cahieve a new greatness as it adapts to a modern politicalsystem & infrastructure. By end of 2003 they expet to have their 1st men in space orbit.
Thanks
Doug Marker
In brief China remained much the same except for two great upheavals, both initiated by Nothern tribes (
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
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Post #92,435
3/28/03 10:51:17 AM
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Re: Thanks for chance to debate this ...
Is there a single period in known Chinese history that wasn't one or more of the following: What do you mean by period ??? - is 200 years of peace & properity a 'period' in your definition. Is multiple 100 year periods good enough ??? I had a list of criteria (one of which was lasting 150 years). You can't name a period in known Chinese history that doesn't have at least one of the criteria. Well, the Han dynasty was relatively peaceful, but was falling into corruption at the end and still was about total control (and the inability to keep it due to rebellion). Fractured into multiple opposing regimes ??? When ??? 403-221 BC, 220-589 AD, 618-907 AD, 1644-1949 AD. Controlled by a brutal dictator or emperor ??? Brutal, in what context ??? (all rulers in almost all civilizations between 1000bc to 1700ad 'controlled' their subjects. This statement really means nothing). I don't submit to the idea that something is ok, just because it's the fad at the time. People have consciences, and a brutal execution now or 1500 years ago is still a bad thing for the one being executed. Controlled by a brutal totalitarian concept (Do you mean Mao ???, if not then which ruler ??? and brutality in what context ???) Communism (as practiced by China) has been pretty good at being a brutal totalitarian way of life. In recent times they're getting a handle on it and gradually changing to a more representative form, but there a definitely some human right issues. Legalism was a parallel from a couple thousand years earlier; opposing views quickly quashed by destroying them in whatever form they came. Majority of people living in poverty Sorry but this is pure crap unless you mean 19th century China as it was transitioning from feudal, to occupied to Communism). If so that is one tiny period in a great & illustrious history spanning 2 millenia !!! There isn't much written about China outside of the elite class. Granted, everyone else survived, but it wasn't until the twelfth century AD that the population's food problems were met as a whole. Even then, you had rice and you had mud. Enjoy. The state of the majority of the population did not change from then until recently. Just a few notes on the rest of your comments: You underplay brutality and dictator control as the very beginning, by saying it was the way it worked then. Doesn't change what it was, and all the periods mentioned contained some aspect of that style of government. Tang: Exemplified by one of the cruelest systems in known history. Look up Empress Wu. (Wu Tang...ring any bells ;-) ) The rest of the progress and achievements you mention were restricted to the few privileged (like many other governments in other regions). Most people ate their rice, sold the rest to pay taxes, sat in the dirt, and died when it was convenient. This is not to underplay the rich documented culture and history of the Chinese elite. I merely pose that they don't have that much more to brag about than the rest of us. Each succesive regime change did manage to capture all of China rather than parts of it, but I'm not sure that qualifies them to claim expertise in proper governmental policy.
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Post #92,443
3/28/03 11:06:23 AM
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Well how long has america been enlighted by your standard?
The rest of the progress and achievements you mention were restricted to the few privileged (like many other governments in other regions). Most people ate their rice, sold the rest to pay taxes, sat in the dirt, and died when it was convenient. that is different how than day to day America? Since America's subjegation and wars against original occupants didnt end until 1912 and genocide was actively practiced into the early 1960's what date do you submit as a start date for America's wonderful state of being? thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #92,465
3/28/03 12:30:05 PM
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Re: Well how long has america been enlighted by your standar
America doesn't even enter into this conversation. If I wanted to compare Chinese civilization with anything else, it would be Arabian, Egyptian or Grecian/Roman. No, those civilizations were not devoid of brutal empires and rulers either...which was my point. Not that China is any worse than the rest of us, but they aren't any better either.
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Post #92,469
3/28/03 12:46:23 PM
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But back to the original original point
They certainly have a lot more experience of the posit that was made at the beginning of this thread, to wit: "There are times when one need do little but watch and wait as those whom one opposes on one matter or another make even bigger mistakes. We Chinese have had many more centuries than the Americans to grasp this truth."
You can say the same things about European civilisation, and even Middle Eastern civilization. Interestingly enough, almost all of the above seem to think the US is making a mistake.
This is my real problem with the war; I think that the US is making a colossal blunder that will reverberate for many many years, possibly unto the next generation.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #92,478
3/28/03 1:15:21 PM
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Re: But back to the original original point
And my original original point is that it hasn't done them much good.
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Post #92,676
3/28/03 10:35:56 PM
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Your definition is now too broad and meaningless
We could both argue that there has *never* been a period in any great empire's history where there weren't one of your conditions !!!.
Roman
Byzantine
Persian
Austro-Hungarian
British
Russian
USSR
German
American
You have spread your case so ridiculously broad as to make it meaningless - as an illustration. Tell me when US has had any 100-150 years without one of your pointless conditions being met.
--Please start with the treatment of native Americans !!!. Then enlighten us re:
--The war on Spain started by blaming them for a coal bunker explosion on the Battleship Maine in Havana Harbour
--The Vietnam mess
--Ollie North's Nicaraguan adventures
--etc: ad infinitum
Cheers
Doug Marker
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
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Post #92,681
3/28/03 10:38:50 PM
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hey we didnt stop governmental genocide
as a matter of public policy until the 60's
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #92,702
3/28/03 11:07:29 PM
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Re: Your definition is now too broad and meaningless
Ummm...that was my entire POINT! I in fact STATED that other long-standing empires have suffered from the same problems. My POINT was that China is not handing down drops of wisdom from a higher plane of reality!
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Post #92,748
3/29/03 3:49:56 AM
3/29/03 7:31:00 AM
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What were you actually saying ???
Of all empires of the past 2,500 years China is the only surviving one and is yet again on the resurgence after approx 150 years of foreign intervention & political weakness. ????.
What did you make your original post for then, it seems to me you are really admiting you made an attack on China for no useful purpose & to establish no point that bears any relevance to the war on Iraq. They you failed to prove anything other than not understanding the point you tried to make.
The outcome of this episode is to paint you as a 'mouth' rather than a 'brain'.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
(I promise will not hold this against you in future debates (only what you post and how you defend it) but do keep away from posting your 'wisdom & insights' on China because you have shown us that wisdom and insight is not what inspires your sino-knowledge.
China *does* have wisdom & a wealth of experience in being and sustaining an empire & apart from the issue of land-locked Tibet. Has *never* been the slightet bit guilty of being an aggresive imperialist force seeking domination beyond its immediate (last 1000 years) borders or spheres of influence (Korea, Tibet, Hainan, Taiwan & Hong Kong/Macau. (just remember that the 1st Chinese dynasty included *all* of Siberia - have you ever heard any Chinese saying they want it back ???). (Go back & look at your 1st post in this unfortunate thread).
Doug Marker
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Edited by dmarker
March 29, 2003, 04:16:25 AM EST
Edited by dmarker
March 29, 2003, 07:24:33 AM EST
Edited by dmarker
March 29, 2003, 07:31:00 AM EST
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Post #92,835
3/29/03 1:40:18 PM
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Re: What were you actually saying ???
China can only claim "surviving" because each successive regime change kept roughly the same boundaries (sometimes). They have had as much of a rocky past as anyone else.
In my original post I was making the point that China appears to be holding itself up as an example to follow, while it's obvious they haven't got it right yet, and never have. Just like the rest of the world.
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Post #92,963
3/29/03 11:41:05 PM
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A backdown -- 'China *appears* to be' ...
No you did *not* say 'China appears to be' - you wrote ...
>>
They have a great history, of brutal dictatorships of dazzling grandeur and massive populations in abject poverty, to draw from.
<<
I don't see any such words or imputation.
Doug M
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
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Post #92,991
3/30/03 1:23:16 AM
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Re: A backdown -- 'China *appears* to be' ...
You can mince semantics all day, but it never helps your case to grasp at that straw.
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Post #93,015
3/30/03 3:05:39 AM
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Clap clap clap
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
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Post #92,740
3/29/03 1:32:14 AM
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Well, this was a dud.
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Post #92,768
3/29/03 7:27:16 AM
3/29/03 7:36:28 AM
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You are the dud!. Pulled grenade out of pin with your teeth
Then threw the pin - result !!! -- You blew your mouth off <vbg>
DSM
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Edited by dmarker
March 29, 2003, 07:34:35 AM EST
Edited by dmarker
March 29, 2003, 07:36:28 AM EST
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Post #92,833
3/29/03 1:36:14 PM
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Re: You are the dud!. Pulled grenade out of pin with your te
Well, I made some points and you haven't countered them.
Only because you know I am correct. You did not look at what I was saying before taking me out in the street for a duel. You certainly have not convinced me you know anything more than the average person about China.
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Post #92,862
3/29/03 3:22:10 PM
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Tell me 1 'point' you made -
but lets define a point has being specific and not so general as to have no meaning.
>>
Fractured into multiple opposing regimes ??? When ???
403-221 BC, 220-589 AD, 618-907 AD, 1644-1949 AD.
<<
What opposing factions & when & how long did they last in the periods quoted. Give some conteaxt.
*******************
Here is one of you generalizations that makes no point, for example ...
>>
There isn't much written about China outside of the elite class. Granted, everyone else survived, but it wasn't until the twelfth century AD that the population's food problems were met as a whole. Even then, you had rice and you had mud. Enjoy. The state of the majority of the population did not change from then until recently.
<<
This is pure crap and a classic set of CYBERMACE5 vague gereralizations. So here I challenge you quote a source that backs any part of the above claim (But I am of the opinion that such generaizations can't be backed up because you gave no context).
China's population was for the majority of its history, well fed and secure but like any part of the world was subject to pressure from the north. Why do you think they built the great wall ???. To protect the Emperor's favorite garden of to protect the people of China ???
Also China's people suffered a general decline in well being in the past 100 years, it is only in the past 20 that things have begun to get back & there is still a long way to go.
*************************************
>>
Just a few notes on the rest of your comments:
You underplay brutality and dictator control as the very beginning, by saying it was the way it worked then. Doesn't change what it was, and all the periods mentioned contained some aspect of that style of government.
<<
Again from you generalizations, you are arguing that because a leader lived in a pre-modern era he was brutal by nature which is another unrealistic argument. Again I challenge you to prove that they were 'all brutal'. I made the case that Emperor's controlled their people, during the short periods they didn't, law and order broke down & people suffered. There were periods of brutality when order was reestablished or war was being fought - just as in Iraq today.
********************************
>>
Exemplified by one of the cruelest systems in known history
<<
Provide your reference and context that says she ran the cruelst system known to history (yet another of your generalizations - ie what system, why cruel, why no reference to back the remark just your suggestion I go looking to try to do the job for you (sheesh).
********************************
>>
The rest of the progress and achievements you mention were restricted to the few privileged (like many other governments in other regions). Most people ate their rice, sold the rest to pay taxes, sat in the dirt, and died when it was convenient.
<<
Generalizations again - provide a ref to back any aspect of what you are trying to convey. You must have conjured the though from some information.
********************************
>>
This is not to underplay the rich documented culture and history of the Chinese elite. I merely pose that they don't have that much more to brag about than the rest of us. Each succesive regime change did manage to capture all of China rather than parts of it, but I'm not sure that qualifies them to claim expertise in proper governmental policy.
<<
What point are you trying to make here ==
Each succesive regime change did manage to capture all of China
all you are making is a meaningless implcation that each regieme had to capture China each time -- that is meaningless ???
Doug M
The weakbess of debating with you is you have provided only general opinions and even then nothing to back them up with.
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
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Post #92,882
3/29/03 5:08:10 PM
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Re: Tell me 1 'point' you made -
On the contrary, you implied that you were fully qualified to debate on China. If you do not recognize the name of Empress Wu, you are sorely lacking and are just Googling your way through this.
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Post #92,894
3/29/03 6:14:46 PM
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Straw Woman - now who is Googling and who knows China?
A preference for simplistic and dismissive slogans isn't about knowledge of the topic; it's called cant. And someone living in HK for x-years has got to have a saner first-hand overview of this massive topic than any of the Nintendo-Eloi -- even before the inane web-war of links comes to signify nothing at all, except intransigence.
No, you aren't the anonymous-UQC marlowe, but your style is still familiar, and as to its content -
All generalizations are false. Including --
Ashton
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Post #92,896
3/29/03 6:35:54 PM
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how gratifying
...that my initial post (with so self-evident an opening premise as: The Chinese Have Been at This Sort of Thing Longer Than We Have) has yielded such contention, as the Nintendo-Eloi (may I?) personage picks it up and stumbles with it. But you know, Ashton, if people our age hadn't somehow dropped the ball there might not have been suffered to arise another generation of docile consumers of the myth of a benign national purpose. Too bad about this one--after a quarter of a century of passive feeding on the Official Narrative he's clearly ruined for anything like critical thinking.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #92,909
3/29/03 7:49:39 PM
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Re: how gratifying
And where might this Official Narrative be coming from?
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Post #92,919
3/29/03 8:42:08 PM
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Re: how gratifying
And where might this Official Narrative be coming from?
Why, your parents, your teachers, your textbooks, your beloved television, your "objective" print media (I recall my college roommate in 1970 displaying a copy of TIME disdainfully 'twixt thumb and forefinger and asking "Have you ever noticed how TIME wants it both ways? --Appears to criticize administration policy, but always adds 'of course, our nation's intentions are sound.'"), and the Church or Synagogue of Your Choice.
This just in, ninny: the country of your birth is a globe-girdling empire. Its rulers would have you believe that (a) we're not an empire, and (b) even if we were an empire it would be OK, 'cause we're just bringing peace & enlightenment and the uncontested blessings of the American Way of Life to the benighted world. If you tote up the number of deaths inflicted on the world by the military forces of Blue Team vs the (late and deeply-lamented) Red Team and their respective proxies (Note: Khmer Rouge complicity evenly divided --see Hersch, et al) since 1945 (remember "official US "body counts" in Vietnam), the Land of Righteousness is way ahead. But you have absorbed the myth of America as Good Guys as unquestioningly as I did growing up--the difference being that I'd figured it out by seventeen, and you're still hypnotized at twenty-five.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #92,944
3/29/03 10:48:07 PM
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Re: how gratifying
Ask yourself this question:
"Between the two of us, who is actually programmed into some kind of groupthink?"
Apparently you experienced all of the influences you relate. You arrived at a decision point around 17 years, and I have yet to reach your same conclusions.
The difference?
My parents did not try to force me into any ideological viewpoints. They made theirs known, but did not punish me for having an opposing viewpoint. They merely asked me to research the issue for myself.
My teachers were nonexistent. I was homeschooled. Most of my studies involved science and mathematics, with the requisite other subjects taking the form of research essays and papers.
My textbooks were science, physics and mathematics books, and independently-written actual books for other subjects.
I do not own a television, and have not had one in the house for nearly two decades.
I do not subscribe to any newspapers or magazines not of a technical nature. I get my news from various internet sources in multiple countries.
I have religious beliefs but have not regularly attended a church for the majority of my life.
You blame these influences for my opinions, yet you have been absorbed into that very system to a much greater degree. Now are your opinions a departure from the mass programming, or a planned and calculated result of it?
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Post #92,947
3/29/03 11:00:29 PM
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have you travelled and visited any other countries?
or sojourned at some of the inner cities of our own. Curious,
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #93,057
3/30/03 11:47:24 AM
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you forgot the "born in a log cabin" bit
Interesting CV, but misses the point: you could have been home-schooled by Stephen Hawking and Camille Paglia, with Mother Theresa as au pair, admitted to Harvard at fifteen and graduated two years later with a triple major in philosophy, physics and political science, and awarded your first MacArthur grant on your twentieth birthday--but if in day-to-day discourse you routinely made statements betraying your belief in the existence of the Tooth Fairy, none of your credentials would spare you our disdain. Just so, your acceptance of the US regime line du jour.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #93,078
3/30/03 1:48:57 PM
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What...!
Are...are...you saying...there is no tooth fairy?
But...all those quarters...!
Regardless, I still think you really need to analyze where the regime line du jour is coming from, and who of us has swallowed it.
In my opinion, you are certainly following the path set for you by the liberal school system and media.
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Post #93,079
3/30/03 2:02:39 PM
3/30/03 2:42:41 PM
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Re: What...!
We are, to be sure, all of us to some extent the prisoners of our formative influences. Regarding the "liberal school system," this is odd coming from one who by his own account has had no experience with public secondary education. If liberalism was lurking somewhere in the LA City School District by the time I left it in 1970, it was concealed at least as well as Iraq's purported WMD. And when you say "liberal media," you have just added the Easter Bunny to the bill of particulars.
cordially,
[edit: typo]
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Edited by rcareaga
March 30, 2003, 02:42:41 PM EST
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Post #93,117
3/30/03 4:16:36 PM
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Re: What...!
You have to be standing pretty far to the left, in order to see the media as the right.
You're one of those individuals who would homeschool their children because the schools are too conservative....
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Post #93,130
3/30/03 4:57:23 PM
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Degenerating threads -endup in circles & then fly up own ass
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
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Post #93,136
3/30/03 5:18:58 PM
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Query:
If the media is so "liberal," as you say...
...then why the minimal coverage of the [link|http://www.awolbush.com|fact] that Bush is a deserter, when Clinton having a relationship with an intern was frontpage news for more than a year?
Huh, guess those liberals really have it in for the conservatives, eh?
(Nope, I'm not in this for a Brandiochian/Marlowean flamewar - just interested to see how you explain it. I abhor right-shift.
God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.
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Post #93,139
3/30/03 5:42:05 PM
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You need to get out more
If you think US media is left wing.
By global standards, the US media is probably the most reactionary communications available outside of The National Post.
Just out of curiousity, what would you call Iraq's media... right? or left?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #93,167
3/30/03 10:14:54 PM
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Sneaky qustion, there..____ betcha no-one wants to bite.
It would have to rely on '50s era cant - since which:
I don't think there exists today - an either useful or merely agreed-on definition of either so-called polarity! (Except that maybe.. many would agree that the conceptual line is bent in a circle and the far-Rightful ones meet the bomb-throwing Anarchists & Shake Hands)
Use of these epithets has become so ingrained as politico-blab: it survives, like not walking under ladders. As Confucious observed ~ when language is fucked: you are fucked.
So let's hear it from any 'side' of this icosahedron:
WHAT is 'Left' ?
WHAT is 'Right' ?
(And for encore: tell me what it is that self-labelled 'Conservatives' most want to conserve. Then - what has 'Liberal' to do with a "liberal education" [and if not / why not])
But start a new topic; this multi-volume set can't bear the right-shift..
Ashton
who predicts that no one wants to take This one on.
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Post #93,237
3/31/03 1:06:07 PM
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Re: You need to get out more
Hah! Because I'm a stupid American hick, I'm supposed to say "Whol, I guess that I-rak media is left-winged, cuz left-winged is bad yup?"
The Iraqi media is conservative...very, very conservative. Of course they have nowhere near the freedom to criticize the goverment (make that NO freedom). One of the reasons that conservative Muslims despise Americans is our media. The things shown on TV and the big screen are beyond belief for them, completely out of what they consider morally acceptable. They see what our media portrays, and want to protect their sons and daughters from that.
And I agree wholeheartedly. The vast majority of "entertainment" these days is a race to find new levels of degeneration, in order to shock and awe jaded Americans. It's only a few more levels till we're throwing lions to the lawyers in arena combat.
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Post #93,245
3/31/03 1:34:18 PM
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LRPD Candidate (new thread)
Created as new thread #93244 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=93244|LRPD Candidate]
God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.
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Post #93,263
3/31/03 2:17:23 PM
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Re: You need to get out more
Hah! Because I'm a stupid American hick, I'm supposed to say "Whol, I guess that I-rak media is left-winged, cuz left-winged is bad yup?" \r\n\r\n No, I was just asking. See, I'd call it very right wing in its approach, as its entirely devoted to supporting the power structure in place. \r\n\r\n OTOH, it's also fair to say that Ba'ath is (nominally) socialist. \r\n\r\n Ultimately, I'd call it fascist... and fascism is on the extreme right end of the traditional left/right spectrum. If you take a look at how Iraq actually runs its society, fascist is almost certainly the best description available for it. \r\n\r\n The question is intended to point out that "liberal media" or "neo-con commentators" as an epithet is not very useful. Keeping in mind that media in the US has over the last ten years had its ownership concentrated to an incredible degree, looking at Mussolini's description of fascism is illustrative. \r\n\r\n The Iraqi media is conservative...very, very conservative. Of course they have nowhere near the freedom to criticize the goverment (make that NO freedom). One of the reasons that conservative Muslims despise Americans is our media. The things shown on TV and the big screen are beyond belief for them, completely out of what they consider morally acceptable. They see what our media portrays, and want to protect their sons and daughters from that. \r\n\r\n Ultimately, that's an exercise in futility. They'd be much further ahead trying to inoculate them instead, by giving them the right intellectual and moral tools to look at it critically. \r\n\r\n Part of the problem is that they don't have the experience of living in polylithic societies, and that makes acceptance of difference much more difficult for them. I live in a relatively small city, and I can see people descended from every continent within two blocks of my home. The average citizen of Kuwait or SA only sees people from other continents when they're the domestic help. It makes a big difference in how they see the world. \r\n\r\n And I agree wholeheartedly. The vast majority of "entertainment" these days is a race to find new levels of degeneration, in order to shock and awe jaded Americans. It's only a few more levels till we're throwing lions to the lawyers in arena combat. \r\n\r\n Great line... :) My dad's a lawyer; I'm sure he'd get a laugh out of that one. I'll have to run it by him next time I see him. \r\n\r\n What's happening with mass market entertainment in the US brings to mind the concept of bread and circuses... which brings one 'round (by an admittedly circuitous route) to the point that the first victim of Imperial Rome was Republican Rome. Something to think about... --\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\r\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\r\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #93,302
3/31/03 5:31:56 PM
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10 points for the lions to lawyers quip <grin>
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
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Post #92,945
3/29/03 10:48:50 PM
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Mea maxima culpa.
Yes, I doubt there are many over 50 who haven't worn that hair shirt :( especially in moments after some overheard exchange at the local 7-11-no-splitting-aces. Could I?/We?/They! have spent a little less time with the tomfoolery, the mesmerizing toys with blinking lights - and a bit more on Nation-building right chere in River City ?!
Clearly there aren't enough Jaime Escalantes to go around, and 'we' still make sure that any brilliant-Ones shall be nibbled to death by ducks. So (too-) many leave. This remains a primitive anti-intellect type of roadshow IMhO; just look at who we pay the most and watch the most. We watch. Most 'do' hardly anything - so Rilke's out too; imagine a Murican saying and meaning.. Always choose the difficult.. (!) (Unless the 'difficulty' is - maxing a profit, of course)
But as my teacher friends have observed, one way or t'other: nobody *can* 'teach'the doggedly unwilling. First must come the desire to learn, and that entails giving-up much precious junk acquired by osmosis into one's deliquescent wetware (But. but.. they were so sincere when they told me that __!) That takes a certain amount of guts.
Still and all, the umm world of duality appears to be running its normal course of Yes/No Right/Wrong, as designed. And swimming in those eddies is not so much about being gummed to death by toothless pira\ufffdas as
Why Bother? But then.. so soon we forget, and join in and..
What were we talking about? I get so confused.
I can only abjectly admire the intentional suffering (another Rilke fav ;-) of every dedicated teacher, faced daily with so much material - so much of which is malleable as Wolfram.. as they yearn to return soonest to the pocket Nintendo and cel-fone, to express everything not-new avoided today.
(OK- Tungsten; The Periodic Chart! - a mystery to the modern HS grad - is itself a fractal of inexpressible beauty, even without the little graphics on new ones, depicting 2s, 2p electrons and the like.. Liberty Valence? :)
Ashton
"Mediocrity is a vice of the doomed. We look at a bright, bright future in which every child is above average - and we will continue to drop the average until that lofty goal is achieved." Alan Schwartz via DeSitter
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