Someone else said, "Be wise as serpents, harmless as doves"

Post #9,235 by brettj 9/14/01 10:41:18 PM Reply	Someone else said, "Be wise as serpents, harmless as doves" The same person suggested turning the other cheek. He also said, "love your enemies, bless those that curse you, do good to those that hate you and pray for those that spitefully use you and persecute you". Maybe we don't always agree with or understand these words but they are key words in the world's most published book. And in my humble opinion, it's a good book.
Post #9,238 by wharris2 9/14/01 10:59:51 PM Reply	We have to agree to disagree There is no record in history of a nation that ever gained anything valuable by being unable to defend itself. - H.L. Mencken If you want peace, prepare for war. (variously attributed) Turn the other cheek, and this will happen again, and again, and again. We turned the other cheek with the USS Cole. We turned a cheek at the bombings of our embassies. We have no further cheeks to turn. That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
Post #9,244 by brettj 9/14/01 11:59:10 PM Reply	Turning a cheek and defending oneself are 2 different things ... that's where being wise as a serpent helps out. The best way to combat violence is not always with a return of violence, if you know what I mean.
Post #9,259 by wharris2 9/15/01 2:39:23 AM Reply	Sigh You've been preaching (well, maybe not preaching, but pushing, perhaps) peace and love and nonviolence, but the world is not a peaceful, nonviolent place. When you have people intent on violence upon you, what do you propose to do? Love them to death? What should Kuwait have done when Iraq rolled over them? France when Germany clobbered them? The Phillipines when the Japanese "invited" them into Japanese empire? Wise as a serpent is a platitude. Yes, avoid conflict where possible. But when someone kills upwards of 4000 people and causes billions of dollars of damage, I don't think conflict is avoidable. Also see my tagline. That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
Post #9,276 by brettj 9/15/01 10:23:56 AM Reply	Do you want justice or Vengence? Is the distinction important to you? You seem to think I am against any type of military action. You are incorrect. What I am for is international cooperation to root out these and other evil people in the world. Some people want to bomb the heck out of these invisible terrorists and get things back to normal. It AINT gonna happen that way! This is a war against terrorism much like the U.S. is already in a war on crime or drugs. What I propose is that we apply all kinds of strategies against evil, not just violence and bombs. Some believe that violence begets violence. Some believe that viscious cycle must be broken before we have to endure nuclear winter.
Post #9,278 by hnick 9/15/01 10:43:40 AM 9/15/01 11:25:36 AM Reply	Re: Do you want justice or Vengence? Personally, neither. I want the persons responsible stopped. Permanently. I want the practice discouraged. Massively. I want the practice discouraged so much that when others (and there will be others) step up and declare jihad, their neighbors slap them down because it is fucking dangerous to be next to such an idiot. I want to head toward stability not chaos. Mary Poppins is not going to win this one. Nice guys will lose. I don\ufffdt propose we be nice. I am totally uninterested in going to a better world. I wish to make this a better world. A world without terrorists is a good start. my .02 Hugh Edited by hnick Sept. 15, 2001, 11:25:36 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #9,280 by brettj 9/15/01 11:12:02 AM Reply	You are right on target. This attack is a wake-up call for the international community to take appropriate measures to ensure security for all peace-loving people. That should be the number 1 goal, not retribution.
Post #9,292 by wharris2 9/15/01 12:21:32 PM Reply	Both. Justice, such that we do not destroy innocent lives. Vengence, such that future terroristic organizations may think, "bomb the USA? <involuntarily pissing of pants>" Yes. Unfortunately, we may have to kill innocent civilians as we right this wrong. That is unfortunate, but as Steve Stirling said, don't stand next to a person who slings shit at a person armed with a gun. He's going to take out the slinger, but you unfortunately may well be collateral damage. We need to take out the people who did this slinging of the shit at the USA, and the WTC is a heap of shit slung at us, but I am not in the least concerned about possible damage about those who are standing close to the slinger. Give them 24 hours to give us the people responsible, then (if nonconpliance) utterly destroy them. I note that as yet there has been no official determination as to who organized it. If it was bin Laden, Afghanistan will be hard. If it was Hussein, well, it was easy last time, it'll be harder this time, but if it can be shown either or both funded or participated, they should be wiped off the face of the earth. Make Iraq and Afghaniistan a sheet of radioactive glass if necessary. Sure, inhumane. Sorry. Bashing planes into the former world trade center was, I would think, rather inhumane. If you are a government who sponsored a terrorist organization that did this, you'd damn well better cough up your information now. That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
Post #9,277 by brettj 9/15/01 10:38:48 AM Reply	Another thought: What do you think the terrorists expect?? They expected the U.S. to retaliate and bomb Afganistan at random (sort of). That would unite the Muslems who already hate America. Am I wrong? Should we walk into their trap or should we casue their plan to backfire? What do you think?
Post #9,279 by brettj 9/15/01 11:08:41 AM Reply	Terrorists have seen "The Grinch who Stole Christmas" ... come true in real life. Wooville appears to be a global village.
Post #9,271 by hnick 9/15/01 8:27:48 AM Reply	Doesn't say turn the cheek more than once...
Post #10,828 by mhuber 9/28/01 4:16:56 PM Reply	Only have the right to turn your own cheek He was addressing individuals, not nations. I cannot forgive one who offends you. If I have taken on the task of defending someone, and a third person attacks me, I can turn the other cheek, but if the third person attacks someone who I have promised to defend, and threatens to do so again, turning the other cheek is an offense against someone who trusted me. By refraining from massive and indiscriminate retaliation, we show ourselves as sane. I have no desire for retailiation. Not even a hope for justice. There will be no justice, because those who did this have nothing to offer, nothing to lose, that comes close to compensation. What I want is for them to be stopped. Or reduced in effectiveness. If providing them a lifetime supply of hash and hookers would stop them and not encourage others, I would not object to that solution. Unfortunately, I don't see any viable solutions that do not involve some level of military force.

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