Post #92,150
3/27/03 10:13:46 AM
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Scenario?
One loyalist to 20(?) regulars?
"Here are your rifles and ammo. Go out an kill the US dogs or I will kill you."
Then he becomes aware that he is one man facing 20 men with loaded weapons.
Of course those 20 men do not shoot him and surrender to the US troops.
Yes, this makes perfect sense.
BTW: why did you have to lie about your past?
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Post #92,165
3/27/03 11:08:50 AM
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Re: Scenario?
Combination of being programmed to obey (as all soldiers are), the doubt at whether the U.S. will actually stay this time, and perhaps they aren't as cold-blooded as their commanders.
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Post #92,167
3/27/03 11:11:07 AM
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Not to mention being pissed at being hung out to dry
the last time around. Over a hundred thousand were killed. For some strange reason, they don't trust the US now. Go figure.
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Post #92,172
3/27/03 11:13:12 AM
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that was actually mentioned
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Post #92,174
3/27/03 11:14:59 AM
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"as all soldiers are"?
Strange, I was a soldier and I don't think I'd have any problem with that situation. If they were "programmed to obey" they wouldn't need to be threatened. ...perhaps they aren't as cold-blooded as their commanders. That one person is an active threat to you. That one person has threatened to kill you. That one person has a weapon. That is not "cold-blooded". Oh, I forgot who I was talking to. Yep, more excuses.
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Post #92,177
3/27/03 11:19:02 AM
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Re: "as all soldiers are"?
Look...you're tired, you're confused, you've been thrown into a battle situation and probably expected to surrender, suddenly your commander says "get your pansy butts out there and kick some american tail, or i'll shoot you myself!" and you have about five seconds to think this over, you don't have time to figure out what the other 20 guys feel about the matter, and a bunch of guys with guns are running at you, and you are trying to decide whether to mutiny or fight...you've been trained to fight and know how to do that.
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Post #92,191
3/27/03 12:16:07 PM
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Read your own scenario.
...and probably expected to surrender,... And how does one surrender? Tossing down your weapon and raising your hands sounds good. ...and a bunch of guys with guns are running at you, and you are trying to decide whether to mutiny or fight...you've been trained to fight and know how to do that. So, the US troops are running at you and your choice is to shoot one of your guys and surrender or face the US troops running at you. And you don't think 5 seconds is long enough to make that decision?
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Post #92,208
3/27/03 1:06:56 PM
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Re: Read your own scenario.
In a very stressful and confusing situation, you do what you know best.
OK, throw down your weapon. The first guy who does that gets shot by the commander (or the commander and two Fedayeen), and you're still not sure what the other 20 guys want to do. I'm surprised so many Iraqis have already surrendered.
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Post #92,214
3/27/03 1:18:39 PM
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Try to follow the discussion.
OK, throw down your weapon. The first guy who does that gets shot by the commander (or the commander and two Fedayeen), and you're still not sure what the other 20 guys want to do. I'm surprised so many Iraqis have already surrendered. Now, from what was ORIGINALLY discussed.... [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=92150|Scenario?] One loyalist to 20(?) regulars?
"Here are your rifles and ammo. Go out an kill the US dogs or I will kill you."
Then he becomes aware that he is one man facing 20 men with loaded weapons.
Of course those 20 men do not shoot him and surrender to the US troops.
Yes, this makes perfect sense. You're trying to make your point by putting up a straw man about my position. That's not going to work. I'm asking why they didn't just shoot the guy who threatened to shoot them. Try to keep up.
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Post #92,258
3/27/03 6:25:04 PM
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Re: Try to follow the discussion.
Dude, your scenario was completely made up. Mine is more realistic...these guys don't have time to chitchat and probably wouldn't know if they were all feeling the same thing. If they are going to kill their commander, they all have to know that they all agree.
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Post #92,415
3/28/03 10:02:27 AM
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So you think Iraq is a Democracy today?
Dude, your scenario was completely made up. Mine is more realistic...these guys don't have time to chitchat and probably wouldn't know if they were all feeling the same thing. If they are going to kill their commander, they all have to know that they all agree. Bzzzzttttt!!!!!! Wrong answer. :D In that situation, I'd kill the guy threatening me and take my chances with the rest. But what do I expect from you other than more excuses? Answer: Nothing.
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Post #92,468
3/28/03 12:44:00 PM
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Re: So you think Iraq is a Democracy today?
Your choice.
Shooting your own commander is not something you do lightly. You forget these troops are trained from day one to obey their commanders without question. They also know that Fedayeen are mixed in the troops, and they know that their family will be held accountable.
Your chances are better fighting the Americans, if you are wounded in battle you will be cared for instead of shot through the head.
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Post #93,003
3/30/03 2:38:18 AM
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"Lightly"? Your LIFE is in danger.
Shooting your own commander is not something you do lightly. It does NOT get any HEAVIER than when MY LIFE is on the line. You forget these troops are trained from day one to obey their commanders without question. You forget how many thousand of them surrendered in the first Gulf War. That training doesn't seem to have taken very well.
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Post #93,016
3/30/03 3:06:01 AM
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Re: "Lightly"? Your LIFE is in danger.
Uh...exactly. Your life is on the line. So you risk shooting your own commander, not knowing how the other guys will react.
Heck, you probably couldn't even turn around or reach for your gun before the commander pulled the trigger.
So you go and fight, maybe not aiming with that much zeal, and the best you can hope for is wounding and recovery, instead of certain death and the death of your family.
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Post #93,018
3/30/03 3:13:27 AM
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So now "lightly" is "heavy"?
Uh...exactly. Your life is on the line. So you risk shooting your own commander, not knowing how the other guys will react. That is correct. The commander is threatening me and I know he will do it. I also know the US troops have better weapons than I do. Therefore, my best survival option is to surrender to the US troops. In order to do that, I have to shoot the commander. Now, there is a possibility that one of the other troops will turn out to be a threat to me. No one ever said there wasn't ANY risk. Just that this is the path of LEAST risk. Heck, you probably couldn't even turn around or reach for your gun before the commander pulled the trigger. So, the commander has all 20 of the men covered at the same time. Wrong! BZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahhahahahaha So you go and fight, maybe not aiming with that much zeal, and the best you can hope for is wounding and recovery, instead of certain death and the death of your family. Nice try, but you failed again. "Certain death" would indicate that you KNEW someone in the unit (besides the commander) would turn on you. You failed because you lost sight of the ORIGINAL position. hahahahahahahhahahahaa
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Post #92,184
3/27/03 11:49:57 AM
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what was the ratio of nkvd to russian troops in stalingrad?
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #92,276
3/27/03 7:02:05 PM
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SMERSH in Soviet Union during WW2
Machine gun positions in the rear. Fear of guaranteed death now for you and your family vs. possible death on the battlefield later. Yes, it can be done. Has been done.
(Note: I could not find on the Web any references to that particular role of SMERSH. But the agency itself is well known).
--
It made Ketchup!
Sweet Ketchup!
Put it on a hot dog, put it on a burger,
Put it on your sister and she'll holler blody murder!
Sweet Ketchup.
--Tom Paxton.
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Post #92,277
3/27/03 7:07:02 PM
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Man, SMERSH was a real agency?
Wow.
Always thought it was something Ian Fleming made up...
But yeah, see "Enemy at the Gates" (somewhat fictional retelling of the siege of Stalingrad) for an example of the above.
God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.
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Post #92,314
3/27/03 9:17:38 PM
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Ian did that a lot in his books
as he was an intellegence officer - he couldn't write about actual stuff in the offices in Britain (M was actually C) - but he could write about inside information of other agencies (adding an extra element for those in the know). The NSA says that SMERSH existed -
An interesting Naval GRU message, No. 682, 13 April 1942, Stockholm to Moscow, describes a German peace initiative to the banker Jakob Wallenberg, uncle of Raoul Wallenberg, the Swedish diplomat and humanitarian. No translation in the VENONA material, however, is known to concern the case of Raoul Wallenberg, who was arrested by SMERSH (Military Counter- intelligence) in Budapest in 1945 and was reportedly murdered by the KGB in Moscow. Examples of other Stockholm messages:
[link|http://www.nsa.gov/docs/venona/monographs/monograph-5.html| NSA ]
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Post #92,310
3/27/03 9:05:35 PM
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that was the forerunner of the 5th directorate KGB correct?
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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