And in fact the same thing goes in Israel

Read Haaretz in English 1 day, there is tremendous criticism of the government at times. In fact, this is exactly what separates Israel from the Arabs. In Israel there is an organization called Peace Now (which in the past has had demonstrations of over 400,000 people not bad in a country of 6 million) which is pushing for peace between Israel and the Arabs, I am still looking for the Palestinian Peace Now movement. When a Palestinian even hints at compromise (like Sari Nuseibah) he is immediatley threatened with death. Sharon the PM of Israel has stated publicly that he supports a Palestinian state, when is Arafat and other Arab leaders going to state unequivocally in Arabic that Israel is a fact and is not going away.

The fact is that the one Arab leader who did this, Sadat, got everything he asked for, Israel withdrew from every inch, of course he paid for that with his life.

I lied. I may be a fool, but not so stupid as to imagine there is a nice 'logical' exit from this nasty situation. And *I* Have It [!!]

FWIW - I accept the root-cause of the stalemate to be ~ as you (bluke) have asserted: the utter intransigence of the 22 surrounding Arab States. Not their unwillingness merely to "compromise / somehow settle": but their reiterated bloody vow that, They will accept nothing less than the complete eradication of the Jewish State and the "pushing into the Sea" of its inhabitants.

I have seen NOTHING to date which ameliorates, modifies this concerted Arab Goal. If this does not define a situation which spits at any possible idea of peace -?- What Have I Missed?

Very simple

It is hard to trust someone who for the last 50 years has been trying to throw you into the sea. A little history, and some facts.
1. There are 22 Arab states comprising more then 99% of the land in the Middle East.
2. In 1922 Britain took most of Palestine and created the Arab state of Jordan
3. In 1948 the Jews accepted the partition plan the Arabs didn't.
4. In 1967, Israel offered to negotaiate right after the 6 day war and received in return the 3 no's of Khartoum.
5. In between the Arabs have committed many terrorist attacks such as the killing of Israeli athletes at the Olympics in 1972, the Entebbe hijacking in 1976, the blowing up of buses in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in 1996, up to the current atrocities.
6. In 2000, Barak offered the Palestinians a state, a share in Jerusalem (in response to that Arafat denied teh Jews claim to Jerusalem) etc., in return he received war.
7. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a best seller in many Arab countries
8. The new Palestinian Prime Minister is a public Holocaust denier.
9. From 1948-1967 when Jordan ruled the old city of Jerusalem every single synagogue was destroyed and of course no Jews were allowed.
10. Various Arab groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Islamic Jihad, etc. state publicly that they want to destroy Israel

The fact is that an overwhelming majority of the population according to every poll is willing to accept a Palestinian state. However, not until the Palestinians stop the terror attacks and show that their state will not just be another Arab anti-Israel dictatorship.

Btw, forget about Saudia Arabia letting Jews into Mecca, first they have to let them into the country.

A close-enough summary with no obv. fakery I can spot; of course - one could add volumes, but these few points will do for just here. From my perspective a long way away, the land-area measurements describe well the absurdity of Israel ceding more of its infinitesimal fraction of the land: to create a walled-plot to be inhabited by people no less willing to randomly kill any Jew found, as right this minute ??

What stands in the way of any resolution is what has stood there for centuries, IMhO: that massive level of hypocrisy which is always some form of xenophobic Us/Them and which appears to be the root of Fundamentalism everywhere. It is personally rationalised always by the exact equivalent of, My God is Bigger / Yours Sucks.

And this IS the level of intellect of apparently, much of the world's population - carefully cultivated from mothers milk on. (No less-so in Murica; we're just more polished in our hypocrisy .. via our jillions of euphemisms for casuistry towards 'Others', here or abroad.)

This atavistic madness manifests identically in the USA, where the Real God of the USA [the $$] maintains separation of the same reptile-brain instincts as operate in Arab/Jew dichotomy. Ditto in Iraq, where the dictator maintains separation among the opposing Arab-strains of The-One-True-Allah - - by Force / by Fear.

No, I have no blindingly obvious antidote to Stupidity this long-lasting and blind and deaf - either. And Ross's polemic is YAN nice theoretical exercise from afar, long on preaching and short on New Ideas (other than: just let the Jews give the Arabs whatever will make them happy, including an extinction clause in the unstated foot-notes).

I believe that the stalemate cannot -like the Gordian Knot- be ended by Reasonablemess on one side. I imagine that, and typically - only some Huge Shock - might galvanize an appearance of mutual humanity, freed momentarily from religious cant instilled before the age of reason. And even if this is so - you Cannot administer by premeditation: such a Shock! By definition.

Meanwhile the odious stimulus-response game of numbed sleepwalkers will continue, despite the cluck-clucking from such as the US contingent.. still AMAZED that Disneyland might be invaded! by an external reality experienced by the vast majority of humans on the planet; much of that influenced negatively by our disinterest and greed. We are pre-adolescents here.

Luck; may some with brains survive! - these are in diminishing worldwide supply, as Disneyland know-nothing non-culture spreads like AIDS of the mind.

Ashton

Post #90,638 by bluke 3/23/03 11:19:04 AM Reply	And in fact the same thing goes in Israel Read Haaretz in English 1 day, there is tremendous criticism of the government at times. In fact, this is exactly what separates Israel from the Arabs. In Israel there is an organization called Peace Now (which in the past has had demonstrations of over 400,000 people not bad in a country of 6 million) which is pushing for peace between Israel and the Arabs, I am still looking for the Palestinian Peace Now movement. When a Palestinian even hints at compromise (like Sari Nuseibah) he is immediatley threatened with death. Sharon the PM of Israel has stated publicly that he supports a Palestinian state, when is Arafat and other Arab leaders going to state unequivocally in Arabic that Israel is a fact and is not going away. The fact is that the one Arab leader who did this, Sadat, got everything he asked for, Israel withdrew from every inch, of course he paid for that with his life.
Post #90,955 by Ashton 3/24/03 12:19:03 AM Reply	Nobody has any handy "solutions", obviously. Mine: I lied. I may be a fool, but not so stupid as to imagine there is a nice 'logical' exit from this nasty situation. And I Have It [!!] FWIW - I accept the root-cause of the stalemate to be ~ as you (bluke) have asserted: the utter intransigence of the 22 surrounding Arab States. Not their unwillingness merely to "compromise / somehow settle": but their reiterated bloody vow that, They will accept nothing less than the complete eradication of the Jewish State and the "pushing into the Sea" of its inhabitants. I have seen NOTHING to date which ameliorates, modifies this concerted Arab Goal. If this does not define a situation which spits at any possible idea of peace -?- What Have I Missed? Very simple It is hard to trust someone who for the last 50 years has been trying to throw you into the sea. A little history, and some facts. 1. There are 22 Arab states comprising more then 99% of the land in the Middle East. 2. In 1922 Britain took most of Palestine and created the Arab state of Jordan 3. In 1948 the Jews accepted the partition plan the Arabs didn't. 4. In 1967, Israel offered to negotaiate right after the 6 day war and received in return the 3 no's of Khartoum. 5. In between the Arabs have committed many terrorist attacks such as the killing of Israeli athletes at the Olympics in 1972, the Entebbe hijacking in 1976, the blowing up of buses in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in 1996, up to the current atrocities. 6. In 2000, Barak offered the Palestinians a state, a share in Jerusalem (in response to that Arafat denied teh Jews claim to Jerusalem) etc., in return he received war. 7. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a best seller in many Arab countries 8. The new Palestinian Prime Minister is a public Holocaust denier. 9. From 1948-1967 when Jordan ruled the old city of Jerusalem every single synagogue was destroyed and of course no Jews were allowed. 10. Various Arab groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Islamic Jihad, etc. state publicly that they want to destroy Israel The fact is that an overwhelming majority of the population according to every poll is willing to accept a Palestinian state. However, not until the Palestinians stop the terror attacks and show that their state will not just be another Arab anti-Israel dictatorship. Btw, forget about Saudia Arabia letting Jews into Mecca, first they have to let them into the country. A close-enough summary with no obv. fakery I can spot; of course - one could add volumes, but these few points will do for just here. From my perspective a long way away, the land-area measurements describe well the absurdity of Israel ceding more of its infinitesimal fraction of the land: to create a walled-plot to be inhabited by people no less willing to randomly kill any Jew found, as right this minute ?? What stands in the way of any resolution is what has stood there for centuries, IMhO: that massive level of hypocrisy which is always some form of xenophobic Us/Them and which appears to be the root of Fundamentalism everywhere. It is personally rationalised always by the exact equivalent of, My God is Bigger / Yours Sucks. And this IS the level of intellect of apparently, much of the world's population - carefully cultivated from mothers milk on. (No less-so in Murica; we're just more polished in our hypocrisy .. via our jillions of euphemisms for casuistry towards 'Others', here or abroad.) This atavistic madness manifests identically in the USA, where the Real God of the USA [the $$] maintains separation of the same reptile-brain instincts as operate in Arab/Jew dichotomy. Ditto in Iraq, where the dictator maintains separation among the opposing Arab-strains of The-One-True-Allah - - by Force / by Fear. No, I have no blindingly obvious antidote to Stupidity this long-lasting and blind and deaf - either. And Ross's polemic is YAN nice theoretical exercise from afar, long on preaching and short on New Ideas (other than: just let the Jews give the Arabs whatever will make them happy, including an extinction clause in the unstated foot-notes). I believe that the stalemate cannot -like the Gordian Knot- be ended by Reasonablemess on one side. I imagine that, and typically - only some Huge Shock - might galvanize an appearance of mutual humanity, freed momentarily from religious cant instilled before the age of reason. And even if this is so - you Cannot administer by premeditation: such a Shock! By definition. Meanwhile the odious stimulus-response game of numbed sleepwalkers will continue, despite the cluck-clucking from such as the US contingent.. still AMAZED that Disneyland might be invaded! by an external reality experienced by the vast majority of humans on the planet; much of that influenced negatively by our disinterest and greed. We are pre-adolescents here. Luck; may some with brains survive! - these are in diminishing worldwide supply, as Disneyland know-nothing non-culture spreads like AIDS of the mind. Ashton I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the intelligence. There's a knob called 'brightness', but it doesn't work. Gallagher
Post #90,958 by boxley 3/24/03 12:29:45 AM Reply	The only thing that will work INHO is to have Israel make concessions that would balance them on the edge of extinction and have a large portion of the current population of jews killed in the resultant kiyiing of arab massing to finish the job with the results on al jezeerah all the time. The shock "might" propel humans to indeed allow the jews some breathing room if the old europe allowed US ressuply of Israeli weaponry. On the other hand, the PA might accept what was given grudgingly and become the nation they so obviously deserve by looking at their expats in action. Business, industry, far thinking manipulation of the trading world to their own and neighbors enhancement. crap shoot all around. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
Post #91,025 by inthane-chan 3/24/03 10:47:16 AM Reply	The only thing that will work... ...is if the whole ME is turned into an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland. Hell, the various freaks would STILL be fighting over THAT is my bet. "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring.

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