Post #90,614
3/23/03 10:16:55 AM
|
Then why don't you treat your neighbors better?
What is the sticking point? Let them have their state. You can count on US protection for the duration. Why are you so resistant that the Palestinians have a home? Why can you not open Jerusalem to all those who choose to claim it as a religious place? You should be proud of this - perhaps Mecca could be opened to Jews as well.
But it will not happen, because you will never trust each other to live and let live.
-drl
|
Post #90,615
3/23/03 10:28:11 AM
3/23/03 10:35:52 AM
|
Very simple
It is hard to trust someone who for the last 50 years has been trying to throw you into the sea. A little history, and some facts.
1. There are 22 Arab states comprising more then 99% of the land in the Middle East.
2. In 1922 Britain took most of Palestine and created the Arab state of Jordan
3. In 1948 the Jews accepted the partition plan the Arabs didn't.
4. In 1967, Israel offered to negotaiate right after the 6 day war and received in return the 3 no's of Khartoum.
5. In between the Arabs have committed many terrorist attacks such as the killing of Israeli athletes at the Olympics in 1972, the Entebbe hijacking in 1976, the blowing up of buses in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in 1996, up to the current atrocities.
6. In 2000, Barak offered the Palestinians a state, a share in Jerusalem (in response to that Arafat denied teh Jews claim to Jerusalem) etc., in return he received war.
7. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a best seller in many Arab countries
8. The new Palestinian Prime Minister is a public Holocaust denier.
9. From 1948-1967 when Jordan ruled the old city of Jerusalem every single synagogue was destroyed and of course no Jews were allowed.
10. Various Arab groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Islamic Jihad, etc. state publicly that they want to destroy Israel
The fact is that an overwhelming majority of the population according to every poll is willing to accept a Palestinian state. However, not until the Palestinians stop the terror attacks and show that their state will not just be another Arab anti-Israel dictatorship.
Btw, forget about Saudia Arabia letting Jews into Mecca, first they have to let them into the country.
Edited by bluke
March 23, 2003, 10:35:52 AM EST
|
Post #90,616
3/23/03 10:34:15 AM
|
Blah blah blah
Clearly you both have to tear up the playbook and start over. But you won't - stuck in the past. Atavism.
-drl
|
Post #90,617
3/23/03 10:41:37 AM
3/23/03 10:45:44 AM
|
Easy for you to say from where you sit
When your very existence is on the line it is a different matter. What you fail to understand is that it takes 2 sides to make peace. If the other side denies you the right to exist, you can try as hard as you want peace is not going to happen. You dismiss my concerns, however, look at the change that has occurred in the US after one lone terrorist attack. Now imagine, this happening over and over again for 50 years after a history of 2000 years of persecution.
What is your solution, what should Israel do?
Edited by bluke
March 23, 2003, 10:45:44 AM EST
|
Post #90,700
3/23/03 1:02:15 PM
|
Re: Easy for you to say from where you sit
What should Israel do?
1. Divorce religion from government.
2. Agree on a boundary for a Palestinian state, which must include the West Bank - a place you must leave forever, or at least until you are civilized enough to get along with your neighbors.
3. Get the settlers off the West Bank.
4. Publically humiliate the fundamentalists. The loonies over here have a hard time establishing a foothold because their archaic viewpoints are the subject of scorn and derision. See 1.
5. Shut your borders and stay inside them. Since you can't get along with anyone, stay the hell home. Same to the Palestinians.
-drl
|
Post #90,621
3/23/03 10:48:33 AM
|
hey dee, get a published quote from a palestinian leader
that sez they will be satisfied with less than all of israel for their state, them come back and argue somemore.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
|
Post #90,623
3/23/03 10:54:02 AM
|
That will be the day he is assasinated
Unfortunately the Paletinians have brainwashed their children into complete hatred for Israel and the world has helped by standing by and letting them sit in refugee camps for over 50 years, something that is unprecendented.
|
Post #90,637
3/23/03 11:16:43 AM
|
brainwash-and-wear
Unfortunately the Paletinians have brainwashed their children into complete hatred for Israel
Israel's own actions of course have no bearing whatsoever on the opinions a Palestinian child might hold in later life.
"Sure, they bulldozed our house, but it must have been for some worthy public works project."
As Ashton might say, I. Think. Not.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
|
Post #90,652
3/23/03 11:38:15 AM
|
You missed the point
Before 1948 whose house had Israel bulldozed? From 1948-1967 whose house had Israel bulldozed? Yet, the Palestinians still were brought up to hate the Jews and Israel. How many Palestinian houses do you think hve actually been bulldozed? The fact that Palestinians are still sitting in refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria and other Arab countries 55 years later is a much bigger part of the problem.
|
Post #90,656
3/23/03 11:40:51 AM
|
your missing the point, Viega thinks you should all leave
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
|
Post #90,670
3/23/03 11:56:28 AM
|
Clearly not
If I had a realistic and humane solution for that mess I'd put it in writing and wait for Stockholm (Oslo?) to call.
Actually, I favor American noninterference in Israeli affairs.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
|
Post #90,658
3/23/03 11:42:45 AM
|
From "The Glittering Prizes"
"Israel was paid for with the blood of six million Jews!"
"Maybe that's not what the Arabs wanted for it."
--Frederic Raphael, The Glittering Prizes (novel & teleplay, 1976)
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
|
Post #90,661
3/23/03 11:46:23 AM
|
With 22 countries
and 99%+ of the area of the Middle East is it too much to ask? In 1948 when India and Pakistan were born there was a transfer of population over 20 million people switched sides. The fact is that between 1948 and 1953 over 800,000 Jews were forced to flee Arab countries to Israel.
|
Post #90,664
3/23/03 11:50:11 AM
|
Then scrap your previous plan.
That's the WHOLE point.
What has been done is NOT working.
Nor do I see any way that it WOULD work.
All I keep seeing is excuses for why you have to keep killing them.
And their excuses for why they have to keep killing you.
And the "justification" for both based on how someone killed someone else 50 years ago.
|
Post #90,667
3/23/03 11:52:14 AM
3/23/03 11:54:28 AM
|
What do you suggest?
As I said it takes 2 sides to make peace.
In fact, Barak did exactly that, he said enough interim agreements lets make a deal and made a very generous offer, basically all the West Bank and Gaza and a compromise on Jerusalem. We all know how Arafat responded.
Edited by bluke
March 23, 2003, 11:54:28 AM EST
|
Post #90,699
3/23/03 1:02:04 PM
|
Actually, that depends upon your view.
As I said it takes 2 sides to make peace. That is true, if you see the world as "us" against "them". In reality, there are MANY sides in this issue. Israel's problem is that it treats ALL the Palestinians as terrorists. That is why Israel does not see a problem with rocket attacks against an apartment building, as long as Israel kills the "bad guy" it was going after. Even Yasser has/had to deal with different factions in his organization. Work towards reducing the problem. Find the factions that Israel can work with and help them expand their power base. Work with the other nations there and through the UN to get those factions some land of their own. It doesn't all have to come from Israel. Hell, you have the maps. Offer them something GOOD like the chunk where Egypt, Israel and Saudi Arabia and Jordan meet. It's water front property. I'd have a bit of trouble selling that to Jordan, but it could be done. If not there, slice bit from Israel, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. They'd end up with access to the Mediterranean Sea. If you can't stand for that either, then move them over the Gaza strip and run it up along the border 'tween Egypt and Israel. But get the UN to buy into it so you can get UN support for weeding out any terrorists (without helicopters shooting apartments) that try to setup a home there. No Palestinian is born a terrorist. They can be raised that way. And Israel can help raise them that way. Or Israel can help those who are NOT terrorists to setup a better life for themselves.
|
Post #90,733
3/23/03 3:28:13 PM
|
another vote for transfer YES :-)
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
|
Post #90,739
3/23/03 3:52:18 PM
|
Not far and to a GOOD spot.
And that most likely means that some people in Israel will have to move.
And this will NOT be all of the Palestinians. This will be small factions that are willing to live in peace with the Jews.
So, initially, the Palestinians would have MORE land and Israel would have LESS land.
I trust that you've looked at maps of the area. Any problems with the locations I've picked?
|
Post #90,743
3/23/03 3:55:15 PM
|
Nope, I dont live there so its fine with me
as long as there is a defensible spot for me to get to if needed.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
|
Post #90,697
3/23/03 12:53:20 PM
|
Not defending those people either
My ideal solution involves and asteroid breaking into two pieces and landing on Jerusalem and Mecca simultaneously, but of course God would never be so kind.
As stated, Allah and Jehovah are the same God of intransigence and absolutism.
-drl
|
