Post #9,012
9/13/01 11:20:11 PM
9/15/01 12:28:57 AM
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I don't see it that way.
This is a war of good vs evil, if we must call it a war.
I'm not saying we are good and others are evil. We are all good and evil. Which side do you prefer to show the world?
If the good people of the world band together to show the evil people that we outnumber them and will stand against them (and try to help them) then we can turn the tide against war and find a way to support peace.
I guess the cup is either half empty or half full.
It's up to "you" to tip the balance.
The world leaders seem to want an end to the violence/terrorism. (or are you watching different news channels than I? :)
Edited by brettj
Sept. 15, 2001, 12:28:57 AM EDT
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Post #9,019
9/13/01 11:42:04 PM
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That's Why I Don't Like Calling It A War
That's why I don't like the comparisons to Pearl Harbor. A nation (Japan) attacked us. There were weeks and months of diplomatic gestures prior to the attack. Japan was "supposed" to notify us prior to the attack. We had a clear enemy, we fought them, and ultimately created a gigantic weapon of mass destruction (the atomic bomb) to destroy two cities before they finally signed a peace treaty. After the war, we poured billions of dollars into Japan to rebuild their industries, buildings, and economy to where they rival the United States in the modern world.
Another nation did not attack us. If we demonstrate to the world by good police work that Islam did not attack us, or Afghanistan, or Syria, etc., but a few really twisted and sick criminal individuals, then we can still care for Islamic people here. We isolate the "bad" to a few people who become the focus of our attention. We give up a few freedoms flying and travelling and renting and buying. We look twice at the person next to us.
This is a gigantic police investigation, looking for a few hundred (or a few thousand) really criminal people and the cowardly people who would help them. A few Ranger/Seal/Marine strikes with selected camps in the Middle East should kill the worst of them.
Declare a war on money used to sponser terrorism. One smart thing I heard today was that Osama bin Laden is still receiving a lot of money from his parents ( a very wealthy Saudi Oil sheik ), even though the father has publicly denounced the actions of his son and vowed to never send him money again. One of bin Laden's brothers has a secret security clearance in our own government. If we discover that his father lied about never sending him money again, then we need to freeze his assets and force him to pay out the life insurance/ADD of all the people in the WTC and Pentagon. We should force him to rebuild the twin towers with his own money. Then we should tell him that his son will be tried and killed. This kind of hypocrisy cannot go unpunished! I'm mad about this! This guy is really rich and wants to play both sides (terrorists and legit governments). That is what we need to really get angry about. As far as I'm concerned, this sheik can just drown in his own oil.
The leaders of Islam here in Dallas are condemning the action, saying that the Koran does not advocate the ultimate destruction of non-Islamic faiths. Jews and Christians go to heaven, too. I laud their stance and fear for their safety. I still would recommend most Muslims in this country go home, not because I don't like them, but because I really do fear for their safety. I fear that continued terrorist actions will cause many people in our nation to decide to take justice into their own hands.
You see, our (American) demands for justice and revenge is just more bloodthirst brought about by our own selfishness, and our feelings that "dang it" we're the greatest military power in the world and NOONE does this to us. But if we act on this rage, we will start WW III or Armageddon.
Glen Austin
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Post #9,075
9/14/01 11:32:07 AM
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Wrong reason
You see, our (American) demands for justice and revenge is just more bloodthirst brought about by our own selfishness, and our feelings that "dang it" we're the greatest military power in the world and NOONE does this to us.
When you find a snake in your yeard, you destroy the snake and the nest, not out of revenge or demands for justice, but simply to prevent any damage, or any more damage
When a dog attacks someone, you kill the dog, not out of revenge against the dog or that the dog 'deserves' it, but simply because the dog has shown itself not to be safe to be kept around humans or safe to be let loose
If bin Laden is behind this, then he and his organization, as deeply as possible down the chain of command, should be destroyed. Not for vengence, not for justice, not for bloodshed, but simply for self-defense. He has shown that it is too dangerous for the rest of the civilized world for him to be allowed to live; he has shown that negotiation, appeasement, and threats, are not sufficient motivations. He has shown that he is a rabid dog and no course of action is left but that he be put down
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped to do things unplanned to people unsuspecting"
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Post #9,095
9/14/01 12:18:29 PM
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It could very well be war.
Let's say for the sake of argument that we prove to our satisfaction that bin Laden directed it. Yes, we need to root out him and his organization as deeply and as thoroughly as humanly possible. However, we have the prospect of Afghanistan, Syria, Sudan, whoevre actively sheltering him and aiding him in his terrorism - do we let them alone? No. We deal with the government(s) and group(s) that have sheltered him in a similar manner - and that is war.
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
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Post #9,098
9/14/01 12:23:19 PM
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No denying it
I'm not denying that it shold be war, I think it should. Nations that give save haven to those that perform such acts shold be held culpable
My only point was that the desire to snuff bin Laden is not just desires for vengeance or bloodlust
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped to do things unplanned to people unsuspecting"
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Post #9,247
9/15/01 12:56:50 AM
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Are You Prepared to Die?
How about those great kids of yours?
The two things I think I'll remember forever out of watching the memorial service on TV at 12 EST, were the children and the old people.
The boys (and girls) choir that sang had kids not much older than my 6 year old. I'm having to tell him now that our world is a very dangerous place to live. He asks if terrorism (the bombs, the death) could happen in our town. Honestly, I want to lie and tell him no, and I try to rationalize it, but the sad truth is YES. If we engage in this war millions of people will die and American will no longer be the home of the free, only the brave. His innocence and the innocence of all those poor kids have been ripped from them. He now has to realize at a very young age that the world is an ugly dangerous place. These were lessons my parents didn't have to teach me until I was in my teens. And I'm very angry about that.
The other sight I'll remember forever was the looks on the faces of people over 70. They lived in the last great World War and sincerely hoped we would never have to face something of this magnitude in our lifetime. They are shocked that we would be attacked on our own soil. And yet, I feel that this is just the beginning. We have failed to put good airport/airline security in place (like Israel) and it will simply be a matter of weeks before we have another kamikaze commercial flight. If the terrorists can't hijack airline flights, then they'll try air freight, or even private planes loaded with explosives. Our freedoms are completely and totally under attack here, but the only response we can have is to voluntarily live with more resticted freedoms until terrorists decide it is futile to attack us. That is why WE are the target, and Israel is NOT. They have done their homework.
Be prepared to have kids die as schools, churches, big buildings, and even our water and transportation infrastructure is attacked.
My answer. Yes, I'm prepared to die. If I have to, I'll fly to Afghanistan, learn how to live as a Marine, and kill Arabs in large numbers if I have to, just to spare the lives of my 3 precious children. But, I don't want to sit here like an idiot and watch mommys and daddys and kids die by the thousands here in America. We haven't lived in that kind of uncertainty in over 100 years. (If you don't count Pearl Harbor and WW II.)
But remember also, the Afghanis love their children, too.
Glen Austin
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Post #9,273
9/15/01 9:11:20 AM
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It's not war
It's a chess match.
bin Laden has attacked. Not with pawns. Knights. Jumped in over our heads, and knocked things around a bit. He's trying to draw us out. Get us inflamed. Perform an overly bold move.
The problem is that there are other pieces on the board. If we don't respond, he'll keep coming after us -- unfortunately in this game, there are more than 16 pieces. But he doesn't have unlimited resources.
What is inevitable is that we're going to have to make calculated strategic moves, and we're going to have to sacrifice some of our own pieces, no matter what. bin Laden's structured the board such that this is inevitable.
We have far more power, but his structure is arrayed far more deviously. It's going to be a tricky time of it, I think. The problem is, I don't think W's spent much time playing chess.
On the other hand, I don't know what bin Laden's poker hand is like.
-- Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
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Post #9,287
9/15/01 11:49:32 AM
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Continuing analogy
bin Laden is playing off the Afghanistan chessboard.
It's hard to play chess if you don't have a board. I can play chess in my head (blindfold chess?) but bin Laden or Hussein or whoever is responsible will find it hard to play terrorist chess without a country to support them.
bin Laden: 1.P-K4 (e4)
USA: 1. ... P-QB4 (c5)
(an oblique, but aggressive, approach.)
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
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Post #9,314
9/15/01 4:37:07 PM
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Hey guys: I think you've Got It\ufffd
And.. this further serves to point out the inanity - practised exclusively in the US? - of approaching Every problem from crime to education to poverty (!!) via this loathsome 'War On ___' utter BS model.
Maybe.. we can alter That little habit, too - as we are assuredly going to be revisiting very many other simplistic views we have: about 'us' and about the rest of the world.
For dead certain: we are going to be educated across a variety of topics, as this all unfolds (unless of course - we regress to a jingoistic Hermann Kahn spasm war as would destroy us all.)
I think.. we're now too smart for that, but - those temptations are always around.. especially when you possess the means to destroy most 'higher' lifeforms.
Ashton
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